Alternative Snowbird Aircraft (merged)

[time expired]

Ref: Airforces Monthly
                      Venga Aerospace ,ofToronto ,has made an offer to lease 18 ex Swiss Air Force
Hawk Mk.66 to the Can. gov.for use by the Snowbirds. The aircraft would have updated state-
of- the-art glass cockpits as part of the deal. Now awaiting a decision by the gov.
Good news or bad I will leave that up to you to decide.
                                  Regards

 

[Strike]

It certainly is an option that should be investigated.  There are more than a few display teams around the world that don't actually own the aircraft they are flying.

 

[gaspasser]

What.....gone are the old, used and abused CT 114 Tutors???  
Bummer, the world loves those little guys.  I was once talking to the Chief of Show for the Blue Angels, he basically said that the Snowbirds are best becuase they can do so much in the show box.   :crybaby: end of yet another era.


edited to add: this be sarcasm....I love the old tutors, small and sleek...red and white..remember, they don't fly by themselves... 8)

 

[Strike]

BYT, nothing's been announced yet.  Don't go starting rumours now.   This is just an offer to lease, not an actual contract.

BTW, I loved flying the Tutor.  It was like driving an MG and was a little rocket in the winter.  Plus, there was always something special about having your instructor sitting next to you ready to pounce if you messed up.

 

[geo]

(musta been designed by someone who took driver's ed with dual controls)

 

[sigpig]

he basically said that the Snowbirds are best becuase they can do so much in the show box.

That was really noticeable a few years ago when I was watching the Fort Lauderdale Air Show on the beach. The Blue Angels were there and were impressive as individual aircraft with their speed and power but the precision team flying by the Snowbirds was far more interesting to me.

It was very funny when a picture of the Snowbirds appeared in the local paper but they put a picture of one of the acrobatic biplanes in instead. I knew the Tutors were old but.... 

 

[Signalman150]

I remember the thrill as a boy of watching the Golden Hawks in their Sabres...a more robust aircraft than the Tutor (read faster and heavier), but they still managed stunts not unlike what the Snowbirds have done these past many years.  I believe part of it can be chalked up to superior pilots. 

Even with the BAE Hawks, I don't think the Snowbirds would disappoint, and could probably keep a similar sized "show-box".  As wonderful as it has been to see the Canadian team in a Canadian designed and built a/c, the fact that these things were in service back in 1966 suggests they are long past due for replacement.

I just hope that some fool doesn't try and use this, (i.e. "well replacing the Tutor's is  really too much money...) as an excuse to start the yapping again about disbanding the team. The Snowbirds are effective ambassadors for Canada, just attend an airshow in the US and see.

As an aside, I remember being at the Abbotsford Airshow back in 1970 and 1971 when both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds were flying Phantom IIs, (different versions of course).  Impressive, loud and fast...but their four-plane formations, even at high speed didn't take yr breath away like the diminutive Tutors. Hmmmm, if I recall correctly, at the time the Snowbirds weren't even an official team yet; they were still wearing the livery of 2 CFTS.

 

[observor 69]

See the pretty pictures 
http://www.vengasystems.com/news.html

ARINC and Venga Inspect Swiss Aircraft in Bid to Provide New Wings for Canada’s Snowbirds

November 7, 2006
Annapolis, Maryland—ARINC Engineering Services, LLC, and its Canadian partner Venga Aerospace today announced they have started technical discussions with the Swiss Air Force in a bid to provide modern replacement aircraft for Canada’s famed precision military flying team, the Snowbirds. 

In an important step, a team including pilots and engineers from ARINC and Venga has just completed a fact-finding trip to Switzerland. While there, they inspected Hawk trainer aircraft available from the Swiss Air Force, as well as maintenance and modification documents for the planes.

The Snowbirds currently fly older Tutor trainer aircraft designed in the 1960s. ARINC and Venga have proposed replacing the Tutors with Hawk trainers from the Swiss. Eighteen Hawks would be acquired from the Swiss, their cockpits would be upgraded, and they would be delivered to the Snowbirds under a 20-year lease including a comprehensive maintenance program.

“Our Hawk leasing proposal will not only enable the Snowbirds to fly newer, safer and better-performing aircraft, but at a cost not exceeding their current operating budget,” stated Venga President Hirsh Kwinter.

The Canadian Forces are familiar with Hawk trainer aircraft, and currently use them to train military pilots. But acquiring brand-new Hawks for the Snowbirds—at a cost of $20 million (USD) per plane—is out of the question considering budget priorities for the Canadian Forces.

“The 18 Hawk trainer aircraft we are considering have been meticulously maintained by the Swiss,” stated Chris MacIntire, ARINC Engineering Services Senior Director for training programs. “We expect to employ 35-45 people for maintenance and support at the Snowbirds’ home base in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.”

Venga and ARINC have submitted a cost analysis based on a Tutor-to-Hawk comparison, following the Canadian Forces’ Cost Factors Manual. Their results indicate a turnkey lease proposal for 18 Hawks should cost the Snowbirds no more than continuing to maintain the old Tutor planes—and the Snowbird team would benefit greatly. The newer and more capable Hawks offer many operational and safety advantages, including zero-zero ejection seats, newer cockpit avionics, and longer range.

“ARINC and Venga are quite excited to offer the Canadian Armed Forces a truly cost-effective solution for modernizing the Snowbirds’ fleet. We look forward to a positive response to our leasing proposal when due diligence is completed by all parties,” concluded MacIntire.

Venga Aerospace Systems Inc.(TSX:VAV) is a 20-year-old Canadian public company focused on providing services for civil and defense programs. Through a subsidiary it also markets an advanced line of 3-D graphic products and services. For more information, visit the Venga web site at www.vengasystems.com.

ARINC Incorporated is the world leader in transportation communications and systems engineering. The company develops and operates communications and information processing systems and provides systems engineering and integration solutions to five key industries: airports, aviation, defense, government, and surface transportation. Founded to provide reliable and efficient radio communications for the airlines, ARINC is headquartered in Annapolis, Maryland, and operates key regional offices in London and Singapore, with over 3,200 employees worldwide. ARINC is ISO 9001:2000 certified.

Release: 06-159

Corporate Communications
corpcomm@arinc.com
410-266-4652

     

 

[observor 69]

Also http://www.vengasystems.com/snowbirdproposalsummary.pdf

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

would be great to see the team in newer aircraft. i was at the Hamilton Airshow a number of years ago and the other teams were saying at a staff party that  the Canadians would be amazing to watch in higher performance jets.  I have always believed the Snowbirds should be flying the CF18, take some of the moth balled ones and use those, do not need the latest combat equipment to do the show but would show front line equipment at the shows.
I am wondering if the C17  will make the airshows this summer as training hops around the country  to show them ...cannot wait to see one with the Maple Leaf on the tail

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

What.....gone are the old, used and abused CT 114 Tutors???  
Bummer, the world loves those little guys.  I was once talking to the Chief of Show for the Blue Angels, he basically said that the Snowbirds are best becuase they can do so much in the show box.   :crybaby: end of yet another era.


edited to add: this be sarcasm....I love the old tutors, small and sleek...red and white..remember, they don't fly by themselves... 8)

I know I know. When I was a little boy I went to an airshow at RCAF Rockcliffe (where?) and was thoroughly enthralled by the antics of the Golden Hawks flying the Sabre (F 86). alas they are history too... :'(

 

[geo]

Think it was pointed out that the speed and manouverability of the Tutor, it's rock solid reliability & good manners make it the perfect aerobatic aircraft..... anything bigger anything faster looks great on the ground BUT may be too much plane to put on a good show.

 

[vonGarvin]

There is a "Golden Hawk" Sabre on display at Zwick's Island in Belleville, ON.  Been there since I was a kid.  I always loved going there, looking up at it in awe.  It's just a beautiful aircraft.  Still, even years later when I saw the snowbirds it was like seeing Elvis!  I was in Trenton for something when I was a young Sea Cadet, doing something.  We were in a room (a bunch of us) when we heard the roar of jets overhead.  Someone shouted out "It's the Snowbirds!"  Like a bunch of lemmings, we ran to the window and stared in amazement to see those 9 little jets flying in formation over the base.  A cheer went up from all of us when they passed right over our little building.
Years later, at the 1998 (?) airshow in London, ON, I was near the end of the runway with the rest of the "cheapos" who didn't want to pay admission.  When the Snowbirds came overhead, nobody said a word and we all craned our necks and watched.  We were lucky in that we could see those birds that weren't directly involved in stunts buzzing around to the north of the airfield at low levels.  Not only were the little kids' eyes wide open, but every adult as well.  Thrilling to say the least.

 

[time expired]

Having seem the Red Arrows many times i dont think you will be dissapointed by a Snowbird team
equiped with the Hawk.Its a training aircraft ,very maneavable,faster then the CT 114 but not so fast
that you can go for a hot dog between maneavers.IMHO the Red Arrows are still the best I have
ever seen,I saw the Golden Hawks and they were fantastic,but that was a different era they flew
very low and very close to the crowd,all things that are no longer allowed in our risk adverse
society.A couple of years ago I saw the Blue Angels,they impressed in the tightness of their formation
but they spent a lot of time in the next county reforming for the next pass, and I could really do
without the Los Vegas showtime pre flight and commentary.
                                        Regards

 

[geo]

There is no doubt that the Tutor will fly it's last flight & sail into history someday.... it's just a question of when that will happen...  The Hawk's unsolicited proposal appears quite interesting... newer aircraft with upgradd avionics & a cost that is comparable to what we are spending to keep the Tutors going.

Is this the time?

 

[observor 69]

There is no doubt that the Tutor will fly it's last flight & sail into history someday.... it's just a question of when that will happen...  The Hawk's unsolicited proposal appears quite interesting... newer aircraft with upgradd avionics & a cost that is comparable to what we are spending to keep the Tutors going.

Is this the time?

A private company can buy used Hawks from the Swiss air force and make a profit. So what is the logic preventing us from doing it ourselves?
.

 

[geo]

Same said Company is prepared to do the refurbishing & then provide Mtce....
but, yeah, we can certainly do that... but we haven't - though we know the Tutors are slowly going geriatric.

 

[midget-boyd91]

Acquire new aircraft and there has to be the training for the snowbird pilots. If the Hawk is taken as a new snowbird aircraft, could this mean there would be a season without the snowbirds performing so that they are able to master the formations/demonstrations/moves?

 

[GAP]

Replace Snowbird jets 'immediately,' DND told in 2003
MURRAY BREWSTER Canadian Press June 25, 2007 at 4:09 AM EDT
Article Link

OTTAWA — The air force was urged in no uncertain terms four years ago to quickly replace the aging Tutor jets belonging to the prized Snowbird demonstration squadron.

The study by the Defence Department's director of major service delivery procurement warned that the life expectancy of the 1960s-vintage aircraft was 2010, but could be pushed out for another decade if absolutely necessary .

"With each passing year, the technical, safety and financial risk associated with extending the Tutor into its fifth decade and beyond, will escalate," said the review, written in August, 2003. "These risks are significant, however they are not easily quantified."

Ideally, the report said, the air force should replace the CT-114s with British-built CT-155 Hawk trainers beginning in 2008, but to meet that deadline, the procurement process should have started years ago.

"Replacing the Tutor is a question of when, not if," the report said.

The 2003 analysis recommended that the Defence Department proceed "immediately."

A complete, uncensored version of the report was obtained by The Canadian Press and follows the death last month of Captain Shawn McCaughey, 31, in a crash in Montana. Investigators have yet to determine the cause of the accident.

In 2002, the former Liberal government promised a $600-million replacement project for the Snowbirds' aircraft, but the money was not scheduled to be spent until 2009. With the war raging in Afghanistan and billions about to be spent on urgent purchases, such as heavy- and medium-lift aircraft as well as battlefield helicopters, Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservatives have been silent about the future of the Tutors.
More on link

 

[Astrodog]

I hope this doesn't go where I think it'll go..