Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[PO2FinClk]

Concerning PLD, I think the system just needs to be more flexible to the rapid shift in the cost of living throughout Canada. I think updating PLD rates on a semi-annual basis would alleviate a lot of the strain people are undertaking at the moment.

And that is precisely what the current initiative/alternative currently being worked on is intended to achieve.

PS (Off Topic): I have very very rarely seen banks turn away any CF member (Reg F anyways) which had a decent credit history. As they know that 1) A pay cheque is assured and 2) They will get their money one way or the other due to CF regulations to this effect. ANd based on these reasons often CF members will authorized higher ceiling mortgages then civilians.

 

[baccalieu]

I think you bring up an interesting argument but I'm afraid I have to disagree strongly with this idea. I think it would only serve to alienate the military from the general public as we'd start be viewed as in some sort of "privileged" class of society to whom the regular rules don't apply.

Concerning PLD, I think the system just needs to be more flexible to the rapid shift in the cost of living throughout Canada. I think updating PLD rates on a semi-annual basis would alleviate a lot of the strain people are undertaking at the moment.

We are paid enough, really look at the salaries, even those just entering the service and we are well remunerated which is also regularly adjusted to comparability to the Public Sector.  Increasing the salaries would only again create inequity that Bob in NB sees more net salary (read cost of living including housing) then Jane in Edmonton. In short, right back to square one.

No worries, it helps to put posters' comments in perspective.  For example, your aim appears to be to state that the entire compensation package (pay and benefits) may not be satisfactory, yet I notice you haven't been in long enough to remember the days of the pay freeze and the raises since.
To aid the discussion, here's a reference to offer some background on how much has changed over the past while - http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/spsm-rgsp/er-ed/vol2/vol210_e.asp
Scroll about half-way down the page to Table 2086 - History of Increases for the Canadian Forces 1991 to 2003.

When comparing CAF wages to the Federal Public Service pay scales I have to agree that todays
Canadian Military pers are receiving an excellant pay package
I left the forces in the early 70's to join the Federal Public Service, my pay at that time was several
hundred dollars more than what a CPL was receiving. I retired from the Public Service some 20 years later, 2 levels above my joining rank, but  my salary at retirement was less than a senior Private.
The top non-officer rank in our trade today makes approximately what a CPL earns.

Although I knew PDL existed,the general public likely wasnt aware of it until todays newspaper article.
It will be disheartening to injured or down-on-their-luck individuals in Vancouver or Victoria who have to relay on welfare to survive, who discover their full living allowance is less than the militarys "top up"  PLD.
 

 

[PO2FinClk]

Although I knew PDL existed,the general public likely wasnt aware of it until todays newspaper article.
It will be disheartening to injured or down-on-their-luck individuals in Vancouver or Victoria who have to relay on welfare to survive, who discover their full living allowance is less than the militarys "top up"  PLD.

It was quite public since it onset as a recommendation following the SCONDVA report, and was in fact covered throughout the media of the time quite extensively. However, PLD was intended to be only a Temporary measure which its funding envelope was well exhausted some time ago.

If all read this thread from the beginning, you will undoubtedly notice numerous mentions that the CF have been working on a self-managed and more flexible replacement model to PLD for sometime and is expected within the next few months. There is therefore no basis on crying foul about PLD being canceled when it has been made extremely clear by various L1 offices that a replacement is in the mix. This is not to mention the fact that no actual instruction or guidance to this effect has yet to be issued by the CF - until then it is but rumint. Until such a time, perhaps this thread should be locked to prevent any further inaccurate assumptions.

 

[baccalieu]

It was quite public since it onset as a recommendation following the SCONDVA report, and was in fact covered throughout the media of the time quite extensively. However, PLD was intended to be only a Temporary measure which its funding envelope was well exhausted some time ago

.
Perhaps I shoud clarify my earlier remarks. Although it was mentioned in the media prior to today, I dont recall ever seeing  PLD rates for qualifying cities.

I

f all read this thread from the beginning, you will undoubtedly notice numerous mentions that the CF have been working on a self-managed and more flexible replacement model to PLD for sometime and is expected within the next few months. There is therefore no basis on crying foul about PLD being canceled when it has been made extremely clear by various L1 offices that a replacement is in the mix. This is not to mention the fact that no actual instruction or guidance to this effect has yet to be issued by the CF - until then it is but rumint. Until such a time, perhaps this thread should be locked to prevent any further inaccurate assumptions.

I dont believe its being cancelled either,what we see and hear at the moment is just rumour and instigation by the media. 

 

[284_226]

It was quite public since it onset as a recommendation following the SCONDVA report, and was in fact covered throughout the media of the time quite extensively. However, PLD was intended to be only a Temporary measure which its funding envelope was well exhausted some time ago.

You've mentioned this a few times.  I've never seen anything that suggested PLD was a "temporary measure".  Everything I've ever seen published on the subject merely points out that it was a result of SCONDVA, and that it was meant to address regional disparities in cost of living.

Also, the "funding envelope that was well exhausted some time ago" that you describe has me curious.  I'll freely admit I'm not well versed in how the large sums of money move to and fro in Ottawa, but the picture you portray is that Treasury Board gave us X millions of dollars when it was implemented, and when it ran out some years later, that would be it.  Would TB not assign funds in a "not to exceed X dollars per year, you figure out how to assign it fairly" basis?  If it's like any other allowance - and there's nothing to suggest that it isn't - wouldn't the funding envelope be adjusted to fit the requirement?  Think benefits as they pertain to the folks serving in Afghanistan.  If we had to deploy a number of people on short notice (DART, for example), and we overspend on the benefits for serving out of country, does that mean we're putting those benefits at risk of being cancelled?  I would suspect that the funding envelope just gets adjusted out of necessity.

If all read this thread from the beginning, you will undoubtedly notice numerous mentions that the CF have been working on a self-managed and more flexible replacement model to PLD for sometime and is expected within the next few months. There is therefore no basis on crying foul about PLD being canceled when it has been made extremely clear by various L1 offices that a replacement is in the mix. This is not to mention the fact that no actual instruction or guidance to this effect has yet to be issued by the CF - until then it is but rumint. Until such a time, perhaps this thread should be locked to prevent any further inaccurate assumptions.

Define "self-managed".  Does that mean that the allowance can be handed out by the CF without any say by TB?

The message still isn't getting out.  To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a CANFORGEN, Maple Leaf article, or blurb in the base rag about the status of PLD.  There's been lots of "scuttlebutt", but like the fatherly (and motherly) Chiefs always like to point out, "Don't believe it until you have it on paper".  I said it months ago - there is no harm in telling people "This is what we know so far...".  Watching leaked news stories about it on the 6 o'clock news is what fuels the speculation - only ongoing, periodic updates from the upper echelons will counter it.

I hope you haven't taken this post as an attack on you - it isn't meant to be.  You're just another member who's been trying to dispel rumour based on what you've heard at official briefings.  There's just so many versions of what others have heard at official briefings, rumour, and third-hand information floating about that it's high time something got said via official channels.

 

[armyvern]

II dont believe its being cancelled either,what we see and hear at the moment is just rumour and instigation by the media. 

There's not a post on this site that says it's being cancelled. Where are you coming up with that from?? It says Ottawa is being set as the zero rate. PLD rates for other cities and locations will be adjusted accordingly ... some will go up -- others will go down from their current rate.

Haven't had an O Gp in the past couple weeks?? This is out there ... it isn't just the media -- it is being passed down via CoC near you.

 

[baccalieu]

There's not a post on this site that says it's being cancelled. Where are you coming up with that from?? It says Ottawa is being set as the zero rate. PLD rates for other cities and locations will be adjusted accordingly ... some will go up -- others will go down from their current rate.

Quote from: PO2FinClk
If all read this thread from the beginning, you will undoubtedly notice numerous mentions that the CF have been working on a self-managed and more flexible replacement model to PLD for sometime and is expected within the next few months. There is therefore no basis on crying foul about PLD being canceled when it has been made extremely clear by various L1 offices that a replacement is in the mix. This is not to mention the fact that no actual instruction or guidance to this effect has yet to be issued by the CF - until then it is but rumint. Until such a time, perhaps this thread should be locked to prevent any further inaccurate assumptions.

 

[armyvern]

Quote from: PO2FinClk
If all read this thread from the beginning, you will undoubtedly notice numerous mentions that the CF have been working on a self-managed and more flexible replacement model to PLD for sometime and is expected within the next few months. There is therefore no basis on crying foul about PLD being canceled when it has been made extremely clear by various L1 offices that a replacement is in the mix. This is not to mention the fact that no actual instruction or guidance to this effect has yet to be issued by the CF - until then it is but rumint. Until such a time, perhaps this thread should be locked to prevent any further inaccurate assumptions.

Have you read his post in the context of the entirity of this thread?

It's not being cancelled, it's being revamped and given an overhaul. Just like PO2FinClerk said ... his post above doesn't even say it's being cancelled. He said there's NO BASIS for saying it's being cancelled.

Canelled means the benefit would cease to exist -- that's NOT what's happening.

Would you like me to let the Comd here know, that the update on it's status that he obtained, and provided from Centre, and passed on to his pers here via O Gps -- is rumint?? Sorry, but the direction the PLD was taking, including Ottawa becoming the ZERO rate, has made it down my CoC officially and was passed to our pers accordingly via their O Gp.

Well before this story (and it's details) hit the media.

 

[baccalieu]

Local MP pushes for cost of living allowance for troops--Edmonton and Cold Lake

http://www.morinvillemirror.com/News/356326.html

 

[armyvern]

Local MP pushes for cost of living allowance for troops--Edmonton and Cold Lake

http://www.morinvillemirror.com/News/356326.html

Wow. I guess he'll claim the credit for Edmonton receiving PLD under the new system too?? -- Despite the fact that the CFCWO passed along that Edmonton tidbit as being the basis for this current PLD overhall in the first place way back at his briefing to myself and others in April (also noted in this thread quite a while ago)?

These changes are already underway. The cost of living in Edmonton etc was noted and recognized by the CoC long ago (see this thread!!) and was the basis for the overhaul. This occured long before the media became involved, and, what we are seeing now, is politicians -- in their typical manner -- jumping on the bandwagon to claim credit for it's occurance. What a load of bullshit that is.

 

[geo]

Oooh Vern,  Just love it when you tell it like it is!

Thanks for the reality check!

 

[284_226]

UNCLAS CANFORGEN 182/07 CMP 077/07
SIC WAS
SUBJ: 1 APRIL 2007 - IMPROVEMENTS TO THE POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL
(PLD) BENEFIT
BILINGUAL MESSAGE / MESSAGE BILINGUE
REFS: A. CANFORGEN 175/07  CDS 041/07 281405Z NOV 07
B. CBI 205.45 (POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL)
C. CBI 205.452 (TRANSITIONAL POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL)
1. REF A ANNOUNCED THAT A NEW PLD METHODOLOGY HAS BEEN APPROVED
2. PLD RATES NOW REPRESENT THE MONTHLY DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THE COST OF LIVING AT CF DUTY LOCATIONS AND THE NCR, GROSSED-UP BY THE APPLICABLE MARGINAL TAX RATE.  PLD RATES REMAIN A TAXABLE BENEFIT
3. THE FOLLOWING ARE THE MONTHLY RATES FOR ALL PLD QUALIFYING LOCATIONS FOR THE PERIOD 1 JUL 07 TO 31 MAR 08 INCLUSIVE.  THESE RATES REPRESENT THE GREATER OF THE PLD RATES IN THE TABLES AT REFS B AND C. 
READ IN THREE COLUMNS: PLD AREA, FULL PLD RATE, SEVENTY-FIVE PERCENT PLD RATE:

ALDERGROVE, 207, 155
BARRIE/BORDEN, 87, 65
BRANTFORD, 114, 86
CALGARY, 595, 446
CAMBRIDGE, 85,64
COLD LAKE, 162, 122
CORNERBROOK, 83, 62
EDMONTON, 232, 174
GRAND FALL/WINDSOR, 133, 100
GUELPH, 245, 184
HALIFAX, 374, 281
HAMILTON, 347, 260
KAMLOOPS/KELOWNA, 161, 121
KINGSTON, 16, 12
KITCHENER, 170, 128
LONDON, 46, 34
MONTREAL NORTH SHORE, 495, 371
MONTREAL SOUTH SHORE, 404, 303
NANAIMO, 6, 4
NIAGARA/ST CATHARINES, 174, 131
NORTH BAY, 6, 4
OTTAWA, 196, 147
PETERBOROUGH, 68, 51
QUEBEC CITY, 189, 142
SEPT-ILES, 112, 84
ST JOHNS, 308, 231
ST HYACINTHE, 24, 18
STRATFORD, 207, 155
TORONTO AREA ONE, 1586, 1190
TORONTO AREA TWO, 670, 503
TORONTO AREA THREE, 543, 407
TORONTO AREA FOUR, 1006, 755
TORONTO AREA FIVE, 1377, 1033
VANCOUVER, 696, 522
VICTORIA, 609, 457
WINDSOR, 332, 249
4. ACCOUNTING AND ADMINISTRATIVE INSTR WILL BE THE SUBJ OF A SEPARATE MSG FROM DAPPP
5. SIGNED BY MGEN W. SEMIANIW, CHIEF MILITARY PERSONNEL

 

[Sub_Guy]

Hey look at that NO Comox!!    Shocking! 

Decent little jump for Victoria though, good stuff there...

 

[exgunnertdo]

??? Didn't the new CANFORGEN state that Ottawa would be baseline and get zero?  Not that I'm complaining, living in Ottawa.  (The rates listed for Ottawa are no change from the current amounts, by the way.)

Edit - OK, as I'm thinking about my confusion...The message last week read something like "effective 1 Jul 07..." but we don't start losing our PLD till 1 Apr 08, and now this message states the rates in effect from 1 Jul 07 till the end of the FY.

So I'm guessing that everyone lower than $196 will lose their PLD? 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I didn't expect to see Hamilton getting more the Edmonton.

No Shilo.  WTF!


I kid I kid.

 

[scas]

Something is definatly wrong with the system.. How can Windsor be a higher cost of living than Edmonton? As I understand the original message, enfiisis was going to be placed on Cold lake, calgary and edmonton???

 

[PO2FinClk]

Edit - OK, as I'm thinking about my confusion...The message last week read something like "effective 1 Jul 07..." but we don't start losing our PLD till 1 Apr 08, and now this message states the rates in effect from 1 Jul 07 till the end of the FY.

So I'm guessing that everyone lower than $196 will lose their PLD? 

Read the messages again.

Those who see their PLD increase will see it retroactive to 01 Jul 07, and those which are lower will start seeing claw backs effective the dates established for their rank levels.

 

[mummiebear5]

No Wainwright either

 

[Sub_Guy]

Has anyone checked out the tables in the reference of the message?

I had a peek but it only raised more questions, the table at reference C has most (not all) cities listed, it then goes through the current rate as of 08, 09 and 2010 the rates decrease for every location.  Edmonton, Calgary, and Victoria are not on that list.    The most expensive region in Toronto goes down to approx 550 by 2010.

The table at reference B has the cities which are getting PLD now, but most of them have a PLD indication of zero.  ???


Just thought I would throw it out there, for those of you who didn't already know, there are two military bases on Vancouver Island....  For some reason Comox seems to be forgotten

 

[Staff Weenie]

I would love to see the calculations and baseline information used to derive the PLD rates published. I wonder if an ATI would free up that data.

For some reason, it would seem that currently Toronto cna be up to 10x more expensive than Ottawa, ergo a loaf of bread on sale for $1 in Ottawa should be $10 in parts of Toronto.......

But, PLD is move than loaves of bread, it's supposedly based upon a whole series of factors......that said, I doubt that across the board, Hamilton is more expensive than Ottawa, or that Toronto in general is more expensive on average by up to a factor of 10.

In about 2001, I actually got a chance to play pokey chest with a civy involved in the calculations of PLD. He basically admitted that as Ottawa had such a huge number of entitled folks, they could not afford to allow for a realistic PLD rate. Every effort was made to find ways to reduce Ottawa's average costs. The biggest result came by dropping a pin into the centre of the city, and taking a radius out to Smith's Falls, and drawing a big circle, and using everything within for calculating average housing & rental costs.

As we all know, when calculating numbers, there's lies, damn lies, and statistics......