Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)

[Scott]

I also had to pay more for consumer goods in many stores and pay larger bribes to local officials. It was systemic and mostly invisible to those not targeted. To the point that many naive locals did not think it existed. They wondered why I was such an angry guy some days. My wife accused me of reverse racism. We were out buying a coke and as luck would have it the shop keeper shorted me on my change by about 20 Canadian cents thinking I would not notice. I let her go on her tirade and then gave the the receipt and my change and asked her to count it. Best argument win in the marriage IMO. It was very educational to be treated like that.

I thought Bruce told you not to be stupid.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I thought Bruce told you not to be stupid.

Yah, that is like screaming at the rain to stop being wet.....

dileas

tess

 

[AirDet]

You know, whenever there is a slow news week they go digging for dirt on their favourite kick bag... DND. What really sucks is even if there is only one person doing something wrong we all get painted with the same brush of guilt.

When I first joined 3 decades ago there was some racism. Then again I think the level was pretty much the same as in Canadian society. So my question is, how do we stack-up against Canadian society today?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

All anyone has to do is read the top of the thread to see what everyone thinks of this bogus theme. Normal, educated and tolerant people refused to buy into the idiotic rhetoric supplied by the original poster.

Some people will humilate themselves for the smallest amount of money and publicity.

This is simply another case that proves that hypthesis.

 

[AirDet]

All anyone has to do is read the top of the thread to see what everyone thinks of this bogus theme. Normal, educated and tolerant people refused to buy into the idiotic rhetoric supplied by the original poster.

Some people will humilate themselves for the smallest amount of money and publicity.

This is simply another case that proves that hypthesis.

:goodpost:

 

[pbi]

I'm a middle class old white guy, so maybe I'm automatically disqualified from commenting. But I can only say what I've seen.

When I joined the Reserve in Toronto 1974, racism was alive and well. The very few visible minority types we had in the unit were really expected to just "be cool" and put up with racist jokes, stereotyping, etc. That applied also to "ethnicism" against Caucasian race members such as Italians (not much...) and Portuguese (quite a bit).

By the time I transferred to the Regular Army in 1982, the complexion of my Reserve unit had changed, radically. We had visible minority soldiers at all ranks up to RSM and Major, with more coming in all the time. The last time I visited the unit it was a mirror of the city itself.

In the Regular Army I did see a bit of "legacy" overt racism, but when people made a stupid comment in the presence of a visible minority member, they quickly apologized or othewise acted as though they knew it was wrong. As far as racism in  merit boards or in career decisions, I can safely say that I never saw any evidence of it on any board I ever sat on at sub-unit, unit, brigade, Area or national level. Maybe that doesn't mean it didn't exist covertly, or existed on boards I wasn't on, but I wonder.

One telling thing I did see was in 38 CBG HQ, when we were visited by another one of those diversity/equity/etc travelling roadshows. We had assembled a group of soldiers of various rank levels (and visible minority status) to participate in the session. A young black NCO made a comment that stuck with me. He said words to the effect of  "Why do we need Black Soldier Day, or Aboriginal Soldier Day, or Women Soldier Day? Why not just have Good Soldier Day, and stop calling attention to the differences?"

My feeling is that most visible minority soldiers I have ever served with have felt the same way.

I should also say that I have seen one or two cases where individuals have made formal complaints about race-based discrimination. In those very few cases, I felt that the "race card" was being played as a fear-mongering tactic. Not to belittle cases where such discrimination was real, but only to say I think it was rare.

To me, all this says more about the true nature of the CAF than the original complaint at the head of this thread does. Unless things have changed a whole lot since I got out, what soldiers really care about is whether or not the troop beside them has their **** squared away, not what colour/religion/ethnicity/sex they are.

 

[George Wallace]

One telling thing I did see was in 38 CBG HQ, when we were visited by another one of those diversity/equity/etc travelling roadshows. We had assembled a group of soldiers of various rank levels (and visible minority status) to participate in the session. A young black NCO made a comment that stuck with me. He said words to the effect of  "Why do we need Black Soldier Day, or Aboriginal Soldier Day, or Women Soldier Day? Why not just have Good Soldier Day, and stop calling attention to the differences?"

I remember that "Diversity Training".  When our Sqn went through the presentations on "X's and Y's" we all left with the opinion that showing us presentations on how we were all different was counterproductive; where they should have been demonstrating to us why we were all the same instead.  The overall consensus of our group was "We all wear green, who cares about what you are under the uniform."  So we came to much the same conclusions as your group did; we should not to be pointing out our differences, but to reinforce why we are the same.

 

[blackberet17]

[...] Then again I think the level was pretty much the same as in Canadian society. So my question is, how do we stack-up against Canadian society today?

Should we "stack up" against Canadian society? Or should we not be above Canadian society, as it were, and represent a higher moral and ethical standard?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Or should we not be above Canadian society, as it were, and represent a higher moral and ethical standard?

I can't quite put it into words yet but that line of thought is bugging me........

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm older than most, in my 70s. I will affirm that, for as long as I have lived, Canadians have been racist. I will also affirm that racism is 'normal' throughout North America, Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Asia ~ East and South Asia, anyway. We, humans, all seem to fear the others, those who don't look and sound like us, or, at the very least, to prefer the familiar, those who do look and sound like us ~ birds of a feather, and all that.

When I first served there were very few ~ some, always, but never many ~ blacks or Asians in the CF. But there were lots of aboriginals. My sense was that some overt racism was always present, even at high levels, especially in speech ~ I'm sure that damned near every aboriginal soldier, back in the 1960s, was used to being called "chief," or something. But, generally, and again in my memory, they were treated with as much respect (or lack of same) as other soldiers. Just like everyone else some aboriginal soldiers were outstanding and some were bums ~ in exactly the same proportions as every one else.

My personal experience, over a long life with a lot of overseas service, including in Africa and Asia, has taught me that people, humans, are all pretty much alike: smart and stupid, honest and venal, skilled and inept, brave and cowardly in exactly the same proportions. What differs, in different cultures, is how we treat one another.

My personal experience, again, is that the CF is slightly more of a meritocracy than are other parts of society. Sure there is some overt racism and there are some evident racists but, broadly and generally, soldiers are respected, or not, and promoted, or not, based on what they know and how they perform their duties, not on the colour of their skin or their religion.

Do some people experience racism? Yes, I'm sure they do. Is it systemic? No. Should we investigate complaints? Yes, absolutely! And we should report our findings, publicly ~ whether they make us look good or not so good.

 

[a_majoor]

Should we "stack up" against Canadian society? Or should we not be above Canadian society, as it were, and represent a higher moral and ethical standard?

This was the sort of attitude which powered "militarism" in Germany and indeed much of Europe during the mid to late 1800's until the Great War. Soldiers and soldiering was held to be a higher calling, and military service was thought to be "the school of the nation", which brought skills, discipline and nationalistic fervor to the troops, which then diffused through society as they returned to civilian life.

Considering the state of education at the time, skills and discipline were probably good things to offer, and since many nations were only recently formed (Germany, Italy), generating a common national identity may have been considered very important as well. Of course, as with everything else, these attributes are good in moderation, and bad when taken too far. I wouldn't mind seeing *some* of the attributes of skills, discipline and forging a national identity being stressed more, and considering that the Armed Forces are only a miniscule fraction of the Canadian population, the dangers of militarism taking over Canadian society can be considered minimal.

 

[blackberet17]

I can't quite put it into words yet but that line of thought is bugging me........

It bugs me too, hence the post.

I am all too well aware we are a reflection of the Canadian population at large (something discussed briefly in the Cpl Bloggins thread), stuffed into a smaller pool. Therefore, our members are a reflection of said Canadian population, warts and all.

Will all of the trg soldiers receive, the awareness classes we must attend, etc etc etc...one would think/hope/pray? we were above stooping so low as to denegrate, belittle, discriminate, harass, victimize, bully, torment, our fellow soldiers.

And yet we are not. Male and female soldiers are sexually assaulted on our bases and our messes. Bullying still occurs. Racial and sexual taunts are still used.

Should we not be better than that?

 

[pbi]

Should we "stack up" against Canadian society? Or should we not be above Canadian society, as it were, and represent a higher moral and ethical standard?

Higher, probably. But sure as hell not a lower one.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

It bugs me too, hence the post.

I am all too well aware we are a reflection of the Canadian population at large (something discussed briefly in the Cpl Bloggins thread), stuffed into a smaller pool. Therefore, our members are a reflection of said Canadian population, warts and all.

Will all of the trg soldiers receive, the awareness classes we must attend, etc etc etc...one would think/hope/pray? we were above stooping so low as to denegrate, belittle, discriminate, harass, victimize, bully, torment, our fellow soldiers.

And yet we are not. Male and female soldiers are sexually assaulted on our bases and our messes. Bullying still occurs. Racial and sexual taunts are still used.

Should we not be better than that?

So course's just make everything go away?  Just like making crime illegal has gotten rid of it...............

The only recourse we have as an institution is to punish and expel those who won't meet the level of ethics that we require of them. Anything else is just pathetic window dressing.

 

[OldSolduer]

The only recourse we have as an institution is to punish and expel those who won't meet the level of ethics that we require of them. Anything else is just pathetic window dressing.

Well said and I fully agree.

 

[AirDet]

So course's just make everything go away?  Just like making crime illegal has gotten rid of it...............

The only recourse we have as an institution is to punish and expel those who won't meet the level of ethics that we require of them. Anything else is just pathetic window dressing.

Here here! :goodpost:

 

[blackberet17]

So course's just make everything go away?  Just like making crime illegal has gotten rid of it...............

The only recourse we have as an institution is to punish and expel those who won't meet the level of ethics that we require of them. Anything else is just pathetic window dressing.

No, courses will never make it go away. Leopards don't change their spots, and neither do racists, sexual predators, etc.

Punishment and expulsion requires two things: a CoC willing to do so, and victims willing and unafraid to come forward.

 

[TCBF]

If one truly believes that quotas are necessary for nation building, then I would recommend Conscription.

However, let us assume conscription to be a non-starter.

I recommend that the Governor-General send letters to the community leaders of the three ethnic groups mentioned in the story, encouraging them to pull their weight.

Comments?

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Good start would be quoting and hyperlinking the article so we have a good reference point.

 

[mariomike]

Good start would be quoting and hyperlinking the article so we have a good reference point.

This may be it.

"Overall interest in military careers low for Black, Latin-American and Filipino Canadians"
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/12/30/overall-interest-in-military-careers-low-for-black-latin-american-and-filipino-canadians/