Alexandre Bissonnette: QC Mosque shooter- 29 Jan 2017

[FJAG]

2. ...

terrorism offence means

(a) an offence under any of sections 83.02 to 83.04 or 83.18 to 83.23,
(b) an indictable offence under this or any other Act of Parliament committed for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a terrorist group,
(c) an indictable offence under this or any other Act of Parliament where the act or omission constituting the offence also constitutes a terrorist activity, or
(d) a conspiracy or an attempt to commit, or being an accessory after the fact in relation to, or any counselling in relation to, an offence referred to in paragraph (a), (b) or (c); (infraction de terrorisme)
terrorist activity has the same meaning as in subsection 83.01(1); (activité terroriste)

terrorist group has the same meaning as in subsection 83.01(1); (groupe terroriste)

ss 83.01 on can be found starting here: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-12.html#h-25 but a key element of the definition of terrorist activity is at 83.01(1)(b) which reads:

terrorist activity means ...

(b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,
(i) that is committed
(A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and
(B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada, and
(ii) that intentionally
(A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence,
(B) endangers a person’s life,
(C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public,
(D) causes substantial property damage, whether to public or private property, if causing such damage is likely to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C), or
(E) causes serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work that is not intended to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C),
and includes a conspiracy, attempt or threat to commit any such act or omission, or being an accessory after the fact or counselling in relation to any such act or omission, but, for greater certainty, does not include an act or omission that is committed during an armed conflict and that, at the time and in the place of its commission, is in accordance with customary international law or conventional international law applicable to the conflict, or the activities undertaken by military forces of a state in the exercise of their official duties, to the extent that those activities are governed by other rules of international law. (activité terroriste)

:cheers:

 

[jollyjacktar]

Sure seems to fit the bill of what is terrorist activity on multiple counts.

:goodpost:

 

[Halifax Tar]

I know it was cited before that the suspect used a AK47 styled rifle.

Any clear news on if he was a legal firearm owner and what used ?

 

[The Bread Guy]

And so it begins ... (source)  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Source for second attachment.

:facepalm:

 

[gryphonv]

:-[

Sad, but not surprised. There are always nut jobs who when its clear an extreme example of their political stripe is caught. Will cry conspiracy.

 

[Lightguns]

I know it was cited before that the suspect used a AK47 styled rifle.

Any clear news on if he was a legal firearm owner and what used ?

Journale de Montreal had a single sentence that said he was a hunter and a gun owner but there was nothing on his facebook, no gun pics, no hunting pics not even a hunting camp pic.  We will have to wait for more info on that.  It's immaterial though, Quebec has the most draconian gun laws in Canada and it changed nothing.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Journale de Montreal had a single sentence that said he was a hunter and a gun owner but there was nothing on his facebook, no gun pics, no hunting pics not even a hunting camp pic.  We will have to wait for more info on that.  It's immaterial though, Quebec has the most draconian gun laws in Canada and it changed nothing.

Agreed.  Just starting to wonder about ramification for legal and law abiding firearms owners.

Stay off CGN if you can, pretty toxic environment right now. 

 

[SupersonicMax]

  It's immaterial though, Quebec has the most draconian gun laws in Canada and it changed nothing.

How are Quebec gun laws different than the rest of Canada's?

There were 9 mass shootings in Canada since 2000, resulting in 46 deaths.

In comparison, there were around 330 in 2015 alone in the US.

If guns are difficult to get, it will have a dissuasive effect those prone to commiting a crime.  It will never stop violent crime entirely; there will always be people going the extra mile to get the weapons and shoot people.  But it will, imo, certainly reduce the likelihood of occurrence.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I know that the powers that be have called this act terrorism from the start, and that some in this forum seem to agree after just looking at the definition that FJAG provided. But terrorism, like hate crimes, require a proof of intent that is based upon what goes on inside one's mind. Not always an easy proof. And in fact, one of the biggest problem with terrorism charges is proving that one was trying to further it's  "political, religious" or whatever else's agenda that would be at the source of his action, through terror. Hate crimes are easier because as long as you prove that it is done against a identifiable group on purpose, no "agenda" furthering is required at the base of the action. Then, finally (and this is what the alleged perp is currently charged with), ordinary first degree murder and attempted murder charges are always available. Much easier, no intent other than the intent to kill and pre-planning for it is required.

Let me try to illustrate: A Canadian of the Jewish faith walks into an Evangelical temple and shoots 10 people. Terrorism? Hate crime? Mass murder?

Scenario one: Israel was invaded by a large group of Evangelical christian "liberating" the Holy Lands , Israel population is kept in tight control and the western nations have all refused to help the legitimate government of Israel. Jewish organizations worldwide have promised to bring the fight to the west until they free Israel. Is this now a terrorist act? Maybe, but if the shooter left documents or at the time of his arrest claimed to act on behalf of a free Israel, then you could certainly come to that conclusion. Without such clear statement, it could still be a hate crime.

Scenario two: The shooter fell in love with a girl who is Evangelical Christian but the day before, she had to break up because of her father's absolute edict that she could not date "out of group". The father who did this was at the temple at the time of the shooting. What have we got in this case? I would say just a mass murder.

In the present case, we have, at this time, no specific facts indicating (even if the shooter was known to be inclined towards extreme right groups) that this act was carried out for the purpose of furthering a specific agenda. We have elements that would tend to put into the hate crime category, but even that could be wrong (think of my scenario 2 - and I am not saying it was love, but there may be facts we don't know that would have caused the shooter to wish harm on that place for reasons other than terrorism or hate against an identifiable group). We do have good evidence that he was the shooter in this mass murder, and that is what he has been charged with so far.

I am sure the police is working on investigating the intent of this shooter, and that if it is warranted, he will be further charged with terrorism or hate crime, as the case may be. But in the meantime, while we are all permitted to speculate, we don't have any publicly available evidence to make a definite call one way or the other.

P.S.: I still think the guy should fry, if we still could. Nevertheless, he'll probably not see freedom again until he is so old and sick that it is just mercy to let him go and die in hospital rather than prison.

 

[Lightguns]

How are Quebec gun laws different than the rest of Canada's?

- Registry Data is still in use and a new registry is in process.
- Quebec persecutes all statutory firearms offences as criminal offences, no other province or territory does that.
- All Public workers, teachers, gun club members and Medical professionals are required by law (Bill 9) to report to the nearest police any suspicious behavior of anyone known to own a firearm.  Failure to report is a criminal offence.  There is no right of patient-doctor confidentiality if you have a PAL.
- Possession of firearms and ammunition is banned from all public spaces, parks, daycares, schools, government buildings and their parking areas, even if cased and disassembled in an RV or Vehicle. If caught, it is a criminal offence.
- The new registry is tied to your hunting license, so you need to prove you have a registered firearm to get a hunting license. 
- If you own a large number of Prohibs or restricteds, you are twice as likely to be inspected in Quebec as the ROC.  Some larger urban gun owners have reported being inspected yearly. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

How are Quebec gun laws different than the rest of Canada's?

There were 9 mass shootings in Canada since 2000, resulting in 46 deaths.

In comparison, there were around 330 in 2015 alone in the US.

If guns are difficult to get, it will have a dissuasive effect those prone to commiting a crime.  It will never stop violent crime entirely; there will always be people going the extra mile to get the weapons and shoot people.  But it will, imo, certainly reduce the likelihood of occurrence.

300millon+ guns in the US and somewhere between 17-30 million in Canada (no one knows for sure) and a ammunition consumption for civilian/police of around 10 billion rds a year. If guns were the driver we all be dead, in fact as ownership goes up , homicides have been going down, except for now Chicago which is bucking a decades old trend of decline. It really always comes back to social issues and even if you can fix that, there will be the occasional rare nutjob that could not be predicted. 

 

[Infanteer]

Terrorism, as understood in the literature of conflict studies, has five components.  First, it is an act of violence; protesting or vandalism is not terrorism.  Second, it is politically motivated; indiscriminate gang violence over turf is not terrorism.  Third it is perpetrated against a general civilian target; targeting and killing six rival gang members is not terrorism.  Fourth, it is for a public audience; stealthy poisoning a political adversary is not terrorism.  Finally, it is perpetrated to inspire a general mood of fear amongst civilian populations.

Dylann Roof was, by definition, a domestic terrorist and was cut from the same cloth as Timothy McVeigh or Anders Breivik.  I suspect, but facts will need to demonstrate, that Alexandre Bissonette will be the same brand of terrorist.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Although I may be called offside because I've participated in the debate here, just a friendly reminder:  let's try to keep this thread tracking the crime itself, as opposed to discussing gun control in a ton of detail.  There's already a thread for that, and methinks this could get heated up enough as is    Thanks for your help on this!

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Terrorism, as understood in the literature of conflict studies, has five components.  First, it is an act of violence; protesting or vandalism is not terrorism.  Second, it is politically motivated; indiscriminate gang violence over turf is not terrorism.  Third it is perpetrated against a general civilian target; targeting and killing six rival gang members is not terrorism.  Fourth, it is for a public audience; stealthy poisoning a political adversary is not terrorism.  Finally, it is perpetrated to inspire a general mood of fear amongst civilian populations.

Dylann Roof was, by definition, a domestic terrorist and was cut from the same cloth as Timothy McVeigh or Anders Breivik.  I suspect, but facts will need to demonstrate, that Alexandre Bissonette will be the same brand of terrorist.

Interestingly, Infanteer, even though Dylan Roof specifically confessed to the fact that he wished, by his action, to trigger a race war in the USA, he has been prosecuted (yes Lightguns, the proper term is PROsecuted, not PERsecuted  ;D) for hate crime, not terrorism. And this is the USA where they brandy "terrorism" about pretty easily.

In the present case, there is no indication that, even though Bissonette called the police to himself on purpose, he made any statement of a "political" nature. Personally, I think in the end it will be most likely found to be a hate crime: He just acted out his own warped hatred of people different than himself. Anyone found it funny that he called the police to himself but made no such political comment if  "terrorism" was his aim?

Personally, I think that he expected to die as a result of his action, but the police didn't get there fast enough. He allegedly had time to shoot, exit to reload then go back in for second round and exit again to leave the place without the police getting there. I suspect that some of it has to do with delay in calling the police because it was so unexpected in a dorm town like the Ste-Foy suburb of Quebec City. In the US, everyone would immediately recognize shooting and cops would arrive very quickly. In Quebec City's suburb, most people's reaction was probably "What the hell is that noise?" and when called, the cops had to drive from reasonably far out (even though, in my days, the Ste-Foy cop shop was just down the road about 750 meters away. Don't know about what happened after the city mergers). I think this guy just acted on his hatred as a last act before suicide by police. When it didn't happen, he wanted to find a spot out of the way (near the Orleans Island bridge) to commit suicide but didn't have the guts to go through, so called the police in.

 

[Infanteer]

Interestingly, Infanteer, even though Dylan Roof specifically confessed to the fact that he wished, by his action, to trigger a race war in the USA, he has been prosecuted (yes Lightguns, the proper term is PROsecuted, not PERsecuted  ;D) for hate crime, not terrorism. And this is the USA where they brandy "terrorism" about pretty easily.

In the present case, there is no indication that, even though Bissonette called the police to himself on purpose, he made any statement of a "political" nature. Personally, I think in the end it will be most likely found to be a hate crime: He just acted out his own warped hatred of people different than himself. Anyone found it funny that he called the police to himself but made no such political comment if  "terrorism" was his aim?

These are two different things.  Terrorism is a type of violent act, whereas "hate crime" is an ethnic/religious/racial motive to a criminal action.  Some terrorism is motivated by ethnic/religious/racial hate, while some is not.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=SupersonicMax]

If guns are difficult to get, it will have a dissuasive effect those prone to commiting a crime. 
[/quote]

Adversely someone not able to find a gun can switch to something  more deadly like a truck.

*1*  truck in France killed almost twice as many victims as mass shooting did in Canada over 17 years.

 

[gryphonv]

Terrorism or not, one thing we can agree with. This guy is going away for a long time, He'll never be released until he is a corpse.

 

[Lightguns]

Interestingly, Infanteer, even though Dylan Roof specifically confessed to the fact that he wished, by his action, to trigger a race war in the USA, he has been prosecuted (yes Lightguns, the proper term is PROsecuted, not PERsecuted  ;D) for hate crime, not terrorism. And this is the USA where they brandy "terrorism" about pretty easily.

In the present case, there is no indication that, even though Bissonette called the police to himself on purpose, he made any statement of a "political" nature. Personally, I think in the end it will be most likely found to be a hate crime: He just acted out his own warped hatred of people different than himself. Anyone found it funny that he called the police to himself but made no such political comment if  "terrorism" was his aim?

Personally, I think that he expected to die as a result of his action, but the police didn't get there fast enough. He allegedly had time to shoot, exit to reload then go back in for second round and exit again to leave the place without the police getting there. I suspect that some of it has to do with delay in calling the police because it was so unexpected in a dorm town like the Ste-Foy suburb of Quebec City. In the US, everyone would immediately recognize shooting and cops would arrive very quickly. In Quebec City's suburb, most people's reaction was probably "What the hell is that noise?" and when called, the cops had to drive from reasonably far out (even though, in my days, the Ste-Foy cop shop was just down the road about 750 meters away. Don't know about what happened after the city mergers). I think this guy just acted on his hatred as a last act before suicide by police. When it didn't happen, he wanted to find a spot out of the way (near the Orleans Island bridge) to commit suicide but didn't have the guts to go through, so called the police in.

I intended the word I used.

I tend to agree with you but with one proviso; he realized on his second entry that this wasn't a video game and loss his hate rather fast and ran away.  I think he is just a man-child without even the courage of his warped convictions.  Hate can make you do insane things, witnessing those insane things can quickly dissipate the hate.

I am glad I choose to live in the woods with my animals and wife. 

 

[mariomike]

Hate can make you do insane things, witnessing those insane things can quickly dissipate the hate.

I'm not a criminal defence attorney, but I wonder if his will cop a Twinkie defence  insanity defence mental disorder defense?

< snip > it was so unexpected in a dorm town like the Ste-Foy suburb of Quebec City.

I read that, "A total of nineteen people were injured in the attack". "six people were killed and eight were wounded in the shooting"

It must have put a strain on local paramedics.

We had 21 people shot on Danzig. That's in Scarborough where shootings are not so unexpected.
Even with a much higher car count available, that was enough for the City of Toronto to declare a State of Emergency.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I note one of the victims was a prof from his school so the motives might be mixed and perhaps personal. I would call this a reprehensible Hate Crime and not terrorism. I suspect the government is not letting an opportunity to "frame the discussion" get away from them, hence their quickness to latch onto the word. But of course I am a cynical old fart.