Alexandre Bissonnette: QC Mosque shooter- 29 Jan 2017

[gryphonv]

Well, yeah. But outside of Israel, Jews tend to see themselves more in solidarity with Muslims than not [source: am Jewish and involved with the Jewish community].

Either way, this is tangential to the topic of this thread.

I offer my sincere condolences to the victims of the mosque shooting. May the villains who committed this heinous, disgusting act be brought to justice, and may the families of the victims find peace.

To be honest there are hate groups in pretty much every ethnic/religious group. Even Buddhists have did some violent shit at times.

I have to say though I agree with you, it seems Jewish Communities outside of Israel (and not all in Israel) are very peace loving individuals. (dont  take this as an attack on Israel. That situation is just fucked on both sides)

 

[AirDet]

Have any of you noticed the angry hate-filled posts in the MSM forums on this attack? I find it sad to see "Canadians" supporting these horrible acts. One of the reasons I joined was to make sure crap like this wouldn't happen in Canada. I guess hatred knows no borders anymore (if it ever did).

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

True, Quebec has always been a strong hold with some supremacist Ideology, groups like La Meute, Soldiers of Odin and Atalante Québec are very prevalent in rural Québec . And so on. You do see many Jewish groups willing to do this sort of thing in Canada, so the prime suspect would be white supremacists.

That is a very dangerous generalization to be made when in ignorance gryponv. What possible basis have you got to support something like that (and don't just recite the names of some allegedly white supremacist orgs in Quebec, as you did above, unless you can prove that they actually are prevalent to a greater extent than anywhere else in Canada).

You claimed to be a Newfie that moved to Winnipeg, then joined the CF and is now a leading seaman. Not much of a background to talk about rural Quebec.

Let me chime in: I have been living in farmland Quebec for the last 30 years, am heavily involved locally, in the Chamber ofCommerce, Small Farmers Association, my village's administration on various committee, on the local and the regional Hockey organizations and in politics at the provincial and Federal level in my "rural" ridings. Funny enough, while we know of  few crackpots "pure laine" French Canadians, we don't have any signs that there is any prevalence of these groups you mention nor that the rural area's of Quebec are socially strong holds of racist/white supremacist positions.

Don't generalize on things you don't know. And especially, I implore you (like many others) to stop this constant Quebec bashing every time something comes out of Quebec instead of the Rest of Canada. We are no better than other Canadians, but we are also not worse. This constant Quebec bashing is not only counter-productive, it is also, in its own way "racist" in those who profess it i the ROC, especially when they don't even know what they are talking about.

 

[gryphonv]

Have any of you noticed the angry hate-filled posts in the MSM forums on this attack? I find it sad to see "Canadians" supporting these horrible acts. One of the reasons I joined was to make sure crap like this wouldn't happen in Canada. I guess hatred knows no borders anymore (if it ever did).

It's everywhere, Facebook, Reddit, etc. You dont have to look hard.

Hate is out there, its has nothing to do with country, race, religion, creed.

We are a diverse country, and that diversity means there are always fringe groups. White hate groups especially have deep routes in Canada, they just haven't gotten much press last few years. They are still around though.

 

[gryphonv]

I have to appologize for a typo earlier and was misunderstood.

I said 'You do see many Jewish groups willing to do this sort of thing in Canada'

I ment to say 'don't see many'

 

[gryphonv]

You claimed to be a Newfie that moved to Winnipeg, then joined the CF and is now a leading seaman. Not much of a background to talk about rural Quebec.

I don't claim to be an expert in anything quebec, and it wasn't a stab at rural Quebecois in general. I grew up in Labrador West, spent a good part of my later teenage years in Fermont, Sept-Ilses, Baie-Comeau, and a few towns in between.

Fermont absolutely despised English people, especially the community of Labrador West. To the point if you were from there it generally wasn't safe to walk around by yourself (as a teenager).

I had a GF from Fermont for a time who's family were pretty much white supremacists, they were part of a group, but I don't remember the name. I was Naive at one point and put a swastika on my arm when I was with them(something I feel horrible about even to this day), went home, and my brother seen it and proceeded to kick my *** ( I love my brother for that). They hailed from the Rural area outside of Quebec City (as most people who lived in Fremont were Transients who when done working, moved back home.

As I got older I got to see a bit of the drug traffics in the area, which was mostly Quebec biker gangs. They had a lot of parallels with skin heads themselves.

There was a lot of hate there, especially towards Natives.

I won't get into all my details, but I do have that and more first hand experiences with racism, especially in Quebec and Parts of Ontario.

Don't generalize on things you don't know.

So please, I know you went through my posts to get a feel for who I am, but it is not all encompassing, there are things I don't regularly talk about. But please don't assume I don't know about something just because of my posting history on here.

And especially, I implore you (like many others) to stop this constant Quebec bashing every time something comes out of Quebec instead of the Rest of Canada. We are no better than other Canadians, but we are also not worse. This constant Quebec bashing is not only counter-productive, it is also, in its own way "racist" in those who profess it i the ROC, especially when they don't even know what they are talking about.

I don't constantly bash Quebec either, I used my own experiences in quebec to respond to a post about something that happened in Quebec. If something like this happened In Winnipeg, or Newfoundland, or Toronto, or somewhere else I had experience with. I would also relate my personal experience. I personally don't have a hate on with Quebec. I would love to live there except I suck at french. I love the culture, food, and generally the people. So I implore you, to not take it so personally. I don't get up in a tizzy when people bash Newfoundland. And that happens a lot in Canada. Being the Butt end of arguably most of the jokes. I'll end, if I offended you. I apologize, because that wasn't my intention or goal.

 

[gryphonv]

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/quebec-mosque-shooting-suspect-to-appear-in-court-monday-afternoon

The lone suspect in the shooting at the Quebec City mosque Sunday night is believed to be Alexandre Bissonnette, a 27-year-old student at Université Laval who was studying anthropology before switching to political science.

The Sûreté du Québec will not confirm the identity of the suspect, who is expected to be arraigned at the Quebec City courthouse Monday afternoon. Several media reports say Bissonnette is the suspect. 

But according to real-estate records, Bissonnette’s parents own a home on Tracel St. in the Cap-Rouge district of Quebec City where police conducted a search on Monday.

Bissonnette’s father is listed in the sales deed as an investigator. According to Bissonnette’s Facebook page — which has since been taken offline — his grandfather was a decorated war hero.

As for the suspected shooter himself, his Facebook page does not reveal a great deal about his possible motivations.


His musical tastes appear to range from Katy Perry to Megadeth.

The young man, who dressed up as the Grim Reaper for Halloween, also “liked” Donald Trump, French Front National leader Marine Le Pen and Mathieu Bock-Cóté, a Quebec City columnist known for his pro-nationalist and anti-multicultural views.

A refugee welcome group in the capital city, however, said Bissonnette’s name and photograph were already familiar to them. In a post on Facebook, Bienvenu aux réfugiés said they learned “with sadness and anger about the identity of the terrorist Alexandre Bissonnette, unfortunately known by several militants in Quebec City for his viewpoints that were pro-LePen and anti-feminist, as expressed in social media and at Université Laval.”

 

[The Bread Guy]

A few more updates ...

• "Donald Trump calls Trudeau in wake of Quebec mosque shooting" (The Canadian Press, via macleans.ca)
• "'We will open our hearts': Trudeau urges love and unity in wake of deadly mosque shooting -- Donald Trump among international leaders offering support after attack that left 6 dead ..." (CBC.ca)
• "Police search for motive in deadly terror attack on Quebec City mosque" (Global News)
• "White university student named as the sole suspect accused of killing six men at Quebec City mosque - one day after Canadian PM condemned Trump's immigration ban" (U.K. Daily Mail)
• "Quebec mosque shooting 'lone wolf' attack: Canadian authorities" (Reuters)

... with this from Canada's public safety minister:

Today, the Honourable Ralph Goodale, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, released the following statement related to last night’s shooting incident at the Islamic Cultural Centre of Quebec City.

“Our heartfelt sympathies are with the families and friends of those affected by this horrific attack in Quebec City.  We are deeply saddened by the tragic loss of life and our thoughts go out to the community in this difficult time.

I am being briefed regularly on the situation and commend the efforts of the Quebec Integrated National Security Enforcement Team (INSET) for their swift response to this incident. This is the result of the close collaboration of the Quebec Police Management against Terrorism framework, which allows the relevant agencies to work very closely and effectively to keep the public safe.

At this time, the National Terrorism Threat Level for Canada remains at ‘medium’ where it has stood since 2014.

The Government of Canada monitors all potential threats and has robust measures in place to address them. However, Canadians should always be alert to the danger of terrorism and report any suspicious activity to the National Security Tip Line (1-800-420-5805) or by contacting their local police.

Our government stands firm in our commitment to protect this country from terrorists and the fear they hope to cause.  Canada will stay vigilant and united, and continue to safeguard our rights and freedoms.

I’d also like to add that the call for applications under the Security Infrastructure Program was scheduled to close tomorrow. The Department of Public Safety will extend that deadline, so that places of worship, community centres, and educational institutions have a chance to re-examine their security infrastructure – and consider bolstering it.

As the investigation is ongoing, authorities are limited in the information they can provide. More information will be made available when possible.”

 

[The Bread Guy]

And this from the Vatican:

Condolences from the Holy Father for the victims of the terrorist attack on the mosque in Québec, Canada, 30.01.2017

The following is the message of condolences for the victims of the terrorist attack that took place late yesterday evening in a mosque in Québec in Canada, sent by Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin on behalf of the Holy Father Francis to Cardinal Gérald Cyprien Lacroix, archbishop of Québec.

“Upon learning of the attack in Québec in a prayer room of the Islamic Cultural Centre, claiming numerous victims, His Holiness Pope Francis commends to the mercy of God those who lost their lives, and joins in prayer in the suffering of their loved ones. He expresses his deepest sympathy to the injured and their families, and to all those involved in the relief efforts, asking the Lord to bring them comfort and consolation in their ordeal. The Holy Father once more strongly condemns violence that engenders such suffering, and implores of God the gift of mutual respect and peace. He invokes the comfort of divine blessings upon the families concerned and those affected by this tragedy, and upon all Quebeckers”.

 

[George Wallace]

From the Government of Canada
http://canada.pch.gc.ca/eng/1461849633127

Notice of half-masting

Masting period: From January 30 until further notice

Occasion : In memory of the victims of the attack in the City of Québec on January 29, 2017

Masting location(s): The flags on all federal buildings and establishments in Canada, including the Peace Tower

Additional details:
As per the Rules for Half-masting the National Flag of Canada (section 16)

Now...I deplore this act of murder in a place of worship as a vicious attack on members of our society, but Half Masting the Canadian Flag on ALL Government buildings, including the Peace Tower, seems to be an extreme case of knee jerk Political Correctness. 

It is also interesting to see how quickly the words "terrorist act" came off the tongues of some political and MSM personalities.

[For the Rules as to Half Masting the Canadian Flag, follow the link to Section 16 and you will find all the Sections.]

 

[gryphonv]

From the Government of Canada
http://canada.pch.gc.ca/eng/1461849633127

Now...I deplore this act of murder in a place of worship as a vicious attack on members of our society, but Half Masting the Canadian Flag on ALL Government buildings, including the Peace Tower, seems to be an extreme case of knee jerk Political Correctness. 

It is also interesting to see how quickly the words "terrorist act" came off the tongues of some political and MSM personalities.

[For the Rules as to Half Masting the Canadian Flag, follow the link to Section 16 and you will find all the Sections.]

I agree totally, if a public servant was injured or worse I understand it. Not to diminish things, but half masting for citizens is wrong. Unless it is something much more wide scale.

We didn't do it for random joe blow who killed a family, or whatever.

You are right it is political correctness run a muck, but We do have the SJW PM.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I agree totally, if a public servant was injured or worse I understand it. Not to diminish things, but half masting for citizens is wrong. Unless it is something much more wide scale.

We didn't do it for random joe blow who killed a family, or whatever.

You are right it is political correctness run a muck, but We do have the SJW PM.

Mass shootings in Canada are exceptionally rare and they are, imo, a national tragedy when they happen:  they are fueled by hatred and fear of the differents which is absolutely not what Canada stands for.  The PM has more than enough justification to Half-Mast the Flags on such a day.  And the law affords him that lee-way. 

I am not sure what we lose by having the Flag half mast....

 

[The Bread Guy]

It is also interesting to see how quickly the words "terrorist act" came off the tongues of some political and MSM personalities.

I don't know -- what's wrong with using the word "terrorist" here?  Initial report caveats notwithstanding, this could be a crime by someone radicalized by a group, belief or ideology, doing something "in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act ..."

Meanwhile, the latest:

A French Canadian known for far-right, nationalist views was charged Monday with six counts of first-degree murder and five counts of attempted murder over the shooting rampage at a Quebec City mosque that Canada's prime minister called an act of terrorism against Muslims.

Suspect Alexandre Bissonnette made a brief court appearance and did not enter a plea in the attack that left six people dead during evening prayers Sunday. Wearing a white prisoner jump suit, his hands and feet shackled, he stared down at the floor and fidgeted, but did not speak.

The 27-year-old suspect, who has espoused support for the French far-right party of Marine Le Pen and had liked U.S. President Donald Trump on his Facebook page, was known to those who monitor extremist groups in Quebec, said François Deschamps, an official with a refugee advocacy group. "It's with pain and anger that we learn the identity of terrorist Alexandre Bissonnette, unfortunately known to many activists in Quebec for taking nationalist, pro-Le Pen and anti-feminist positions at Laval University and on social media," Deschamps wrote on the Facebook page of the group, Bienvenues aux Refugiés, or Welcome to Refugees.

An anthropology and political science major at Laval University in Quebec City, Bissonnette had also expressed support on his Facebook profile for "Génération Nationale," a group whose manifesto includes the rejection of "multiculturalism." ...

 

[gryphonv]

Mass shootings in Canada are exceptionally rare and they are, imo, a national tragedy when they happen: ...

I am not sure what we lose by having the Flag half mast....

I agree that they are a tragedy, I think it lessens the effect of the 'half mast'

La Loche shootings ~ Half mast only in Sask (just as big a national tragedy) (4 dead)

2014 Edmonton killings ~ Only in Edmonton (9 dead)

2014 Moncton shootings ~ Cross country (Service members died, 3)

2014 Calgary stabbing ~ Only Calgary (5 dead)

2011 Claresholm highway massacre ~ No half mast (4 dead)

2006 Richardson family murders ~ No half mast(3 dead)

2006 Dawson College shooting ~ Seems to be only a half mast at the college itself (2 dead)

Full disclaimer here, I may be wrong on some of this, but all the readily available info shows no national half masts for any of these massacres (not all of them are shootings) This list is not an exhaustive list, but what I could find/remember on a short notice.

My point is, this is the first time a cross nation half mast was issued outside of events involving public servants( in recent history, 10 years, I never went back farther), the only real thing different is this has been labeled Terrorism ( I personally think its should be racism not terrorism,  but they are both two sides of the same coin arguably).

So its not what we lose, but what do you set as the the measuring stick for civilian deaths, because if it was done for this, it should of been done before.

I would of been fine if cities outside of Quebec decided to do it on their own accord. It still feels like a move for political points (I hate that I feel that way).

This is a tragedy I agree true and true. The good thing is we can have an open minded debate on this.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Because it wasn't done in the past prevents us from doing it now?  They are so rare and tragic, I don't see any reason why not.  It doesn't lessen the effect of the Half-Mast, in fact, it reminds people that the flag is a symbol of what we stand for.

 

[gryphonv]

Because it wasn't done in the past prevents us from doing it now?  They are so rare and tragic, I don't see any reason why not.  It doesn't lessen the effect of the Half-Mast, in fact, it reminds people that the flag is a symbol of what we stand for.

Ok fine, when the next one happens (hopefully a long time). And they don't half mast because say it wasn't terrorism, or it was contained between friends/family. Or it didn't involve just one group. Or any other difference. Would you cry foul, or would that be ok?

It sets a new precedence, and if we follow it going forward... Awesome. I just don't see that happening.

 

[mariomike]

White House links Quebec mosque shooting to Trump's travel ban
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Quebec++%22white+House%22&biw=1536&bih=723&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F30%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F30%2F2017&tbm=#cr=countryCA&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min:1%2F30%2F2017%2Ccd_max:1%2F30%2F2017%2Cctr:countryCA&q=Quebec++%22White+House%22

It is also interesting to see how quickly the words "terrorist act" came off the tongues of some political and MSM personalities.

I don't know -- what's wrong with using the word "terrorist" here? 

 

[brihard]

I see no reason to believe this does not fit the definition of terrorism as defined in the Criminal Code. The elements all seem to be there. But hell, what do I know?

 

[gryphonv]

I see no reason to believe this does not fit the definition of terrorism as defined in the Criminal Code. The elements all seem to be there. But hell, what do I know?

In the end, punitive wise, is there really any difference between a 'hate crime' and a terrorist act?

I think they both have the same maximums in the punishment. Terrorism to me feels more as a political word, technically all terrorist acts are hate crimes. 

 

[brihard]

There's not much case law on either. I'm not informed enough to say. The criminal code definition of terrorism has legal consequence in a number of other niches of criminal law. In an open and shut case of mass murder I don't know if it will be of any legal significance- but if it applies, it is important to apply it in order to build up that jurisprudence. This POS decided to wipe out a bunch of Muslims, and evidence seems to suggest that he had some xenophobic far right views that I suspect will surprise nobody who pays any attention to Quebec. It appears to have been politically motivated violence, ergo terrorism. It just doesn't play as well because a whole lot of cranky white dudes are used to only applying that to Muslims and find it suddenly really awkward when they're a degree of separation away from this kind of monster.