Afghanistan: Why we should be there (or not), how to conduct the mission (or not) & when to leave

[MarkOttawa]

Well, he would need actually to read it first .  And check the links too.  But that's, er, effort.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[George Wallace]

The sad thing in a way is how this affects us.  It is not the "Canadian soldier" who is loosing credibility here, but the Canadian government.  The "Canadian soldier" is highly respected by his peers in foreign nations.  The weakness is in the Canadian political will, both in Parliament and in the Public.

 

[PuckChaser]

And yes, I admit I went off topic to prove the US's BS, but only because I believe we're only there (Afghanistan) because they are.

Wow. For being a prospective applicant in the CF, you're pretty closed minded. The fact that you cite Wikileaks as a source just proves how out of touch you are. Nobody here is buying the "Western Invader Infidel" drivel you're trying to sell, so if that's really all you want to spout then maybe it might be time to find another forum to hang out on.

Just so you're aware, we're in Afghanistan as part of NATO's ISAF which was deployed in response to a UN Chapter 7 resolution from the Security Council. If you have a problem with us building schools that little girls can actually go to, then perhaps you are the one that needs their head checked.

 

[Final]

I sat here for at least 20 minutes (while reading the arguments), And I finally understand why you posted this picture!  It made me laugh a little..

Anyways, As to the discussion at hand, I think Hippz is looking at the downsides to this "Conflict" (Can we call it that?) and ignoring all the upsides to it.  If all you think about is the civilians killed, you'll never realize how many have been saved/helped.

 

[CombatDoc]

A civilian is a civilian, innocent until proven guilty. This is somebody's human rights you're talking about, which means you'd condone the same actions against yourself. Otherwise you're as bad as them.

Guys, don't feed the troll.  It is clear that a certain poster is both uninformed and trying to stir the pot, so why give him the satisfaction?

 

[vonGarvin]

Guys, don't feed the troll.  It is clear that a certain poster is both uninformed and trying to stir the pot, so why give him the satisfaction?

 

[hippz]

Maybe the arrogance, idiocy and closed-mindedness of many of the members here, including directing staff (especially the ones that try to give out warnings to people after they've completely abided by the Terms & Conditions), has made me second think ever joining the Canadian military.

Look, the title of the topic asked for my opinion, so I gave it. No need to turn into giant trolls and get all bent outta shape because I believe in the rule of law unlike most militaries. Someone even supported my point by saying we first went into Afghanistan because of 9/11.

I'm not even gonna try and talk through a brick wall anymore, there's no point. Have fun telling each other how wrong I am.

 

[Searyn]

Hippz (and others) Perhaps it's not the content of your posts that is making people angry. Maybe it's the tone you use when trying to get your point across.

Insulting people in a variety of ways before you are 8 words into your sentence while trying to bash your opinion into their brains causes a negative reaction in your audience and no matter how true your opinion is, no matter how passionately you believe it, they will automatically stop listening to your words and start listening to the way you say them.

Instead try using short concise sentences that are full of informed and accurate, as accurate as possible, facts to make your audience pause and think about what you have to say. Thereby forcing them to question their own beliefs.

For example:

Maybe the arrogance, idiocy and closed-mindedness of many of the members here, including directing staff (especially the ones that try to give out warnings to people after they've completely abided by the Terms & Conditions), has made me second think ever joining the Canadian military...
No need to turn into giant trolls and get all bent outta shape because I believe in the rule of law unlike most militaries....
I'm not even gonna try and talk through a brick wall anymore, there's no point. Have fun telling each other how wrong I am.

and from hippz's opposition:

Guys, don't feed the troll.  It is clear that a certain poster is both uninformed and trying to stir the pot, so why give him the satisfaction?

this is also unnecessary and just feeds the anger machine.

Your opinion would be better served by being polite, even to those who disagree with you.

Think of it this way, if someone ran up to you screaming and punched you in the face while trying to sell you a brand new ps3 or xbox game what would you do?
Would you thank them for the very effective sales pitch and go play your game thinking you just got the best deal EVER! or will you punch them back automatically and not even notice the game they were selling was 50 dollars cheaper than the ones in the store?

 

[hippz]

Out of 14 posts by myself in that topic, THE LAST ONE was in a defamatory sense, and only because I've only received the same treatment myself. Nice try on trying to be the big mediator here.

 

[vonGarvin]

hippz
Yes, should we be there or not?  I agree that you have an opinion that is as valid as anyone else's.  Having said that, blanket anti-US statements only raises the ire of most here.  That is where we find the problem.  I can only offer this: present facts and not hyperbole and everyone will "chill the fuck out".  Trust me on this.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Maybe the arrogance, idiocy and closed-mindedness of many of the members here, i

You mean the ones who have actually been "over there" and in various other hell-holes around the world bringing aid, comfort and security to those who need it while also doing everything humanly possible to ensure, even at extreme risk to themselves, that only those who require to be dead are made so?                And you????

Sorry Chris, go back to your bong, stupid back tattoo's and drum kit.......................until you're ready to enter the adult world.

 

[George Wallace]

Maybe the arrogance, idiocy and closed-mindedness of many of the members here, including directing staff (especially the ones that try to give out warnings to people after they've completely abided by the Terms & Conditions), has made me second think ever joining the Canadian military.

Look, the title of the topic asked for my opinion, so I gave it. No need to turn into giant trolls and get all bent outta shape because I believe in the rule of law unlike most militaries. Someone even supported my point by saying we first went into Afghanistan because of 9/11.

I'm not even gonna try and talk through a brick wall anymore, there's no point. Have fun telling each other how wrong I am.

This is the first time I believe I have ever had the impression that it was this site that was the Trolls as opposed to A member.

I also find the comment of "believing in the rule of law" interesting as well.  Chris, there is no anonymity on the internet.  What you post is saved for eternity.  There are aids to bring back what you posted, such as the “Wayback Machine” where people can dig up old postings to the internet.  People posting photos and videos of themselves doing “illegal” acts on Facebook or Youtube are compromising any hopes of ever securing a job in a government position, the CF, or many credible occupations.  Rants on an internet site don’t help much either.  People from other sites may just be
Googling you name or nickname and find you in their search for who you are.


http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/71137/post-678628.html#msg678628

 

[Journeyman]

Oh man, it is not going to be a good day.

It was harsh yesterday, discovering that I was an invading, occupying infidel.
Now I wake up this morning to find I'm an arrogant, closed-minded idiot.


And I'm not even finished my first coffee. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hey, it can only get better, right?


Well, until you wake up to find out what you are tomorrow..........

 

[Kat Stevens]

Oh man, it is not going to be a good day.

It was harsh yesterday, discovering that I was an invading, occupying infidel.
Now I wake up this morning to find I'm an arrogant, closed-minded idiot.


And I'm not even finished my first coffee. 

Think of it as free therapy.  The truth can be ugly, my friend...  >

 

[MarkOttawa]

In answer to a recent prolific person here whom I will not name, please read this excellent piece by Brian Platt, now in Kabul, at his Ubyssey blog, excerpts:

A Response To The Responses
http://ubyssey.ca/afghanistan/2010/11/04/a-response-to-the-responses/

So, as expected, I’ve gotten feedback from many people. Most of it has been very supportive, but some has been from those who oppose the deployment of international militaries to Afghanistan. And, by extension, the removal of the Taliban from power, because it wouldn’t have happened without the contribution of NATO and UN forces.

…When you come here and speak with Afghans, you quickly realize that almost all of the things we obsess over in Canada are entirely irrelevant to what Afghans are experiencing (Exhibit A: the preposterous uproar over the detainee “abuse” scandal.) Even the hardcore stoppists over at Code Pink were forced to reconsider their position on withdrawing the troops after they traveled to the country and had long discussions with Afghan women…

Yeah, we’ve rained down such a frightening barrage of death and destruction that the UN estimates five million refugees RETURNED to the country after 2001!

Honestly, to say that what has happened in the past 9 years is “some of the worst devastation that Afghanistan has experienced in its history” is to betray such massive ignorance of what has happened over that history that you should be ashamed to have had those words published in print under your name. Go read a book that covers the events in Afghanistan over the past, oh, two thousand years. Maybe start with Genghis Khan, and finish with Mullah Omar’s troops in Mazar-e-Sharif.

And by the way, I’ve been in Kabul for 9 full days. I’ve been out in the streets almost constantly, both walking and driving around. If it weren’t for helicopters making occasional flyovers, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that there is a foreign military presence here. Every corner of this city is policed by Afghans. (How effectively is another story, unfortunately.)..

Mark
Ottawa

 

[The Bread Guy]

More "unattributed whispers in the halls" speculation on Canada's future mission, via the Toronto Star:

Canadian troops could remain “behind the wire” in Afghanistan involved in training local troops after their combat mission ends next summer, the Star has learned.

While the Conservative government is holding firm that the combat mission will end in 2011, one of three options emerging is that some soldiers could remain in the troubled nation, well away from combat zones, as trainers.

The other two potential roles on the table are aid and development, a senior government official told the Star.

There are roughly 3,000 soldiers involved in Canada's Afghan mission. The size of the training contingent would be “much smaller” and would be away from Kandahar, a hotbed of the insurgency, the official said.

( .... )

With less than a year before troops begin their pullout, discussions between officials at foreign affairs, defence and international development have taken on fresh urgency to frame the next stage of the mission.

Officials have already briefed the Liberals in their role as the official opposition about the options being considered, suggesting the Conservatives are hoping to avoid a bitter partisan fight over the future of Canada's biggest foreign policy priority.

(....)

Or are we seeing a kind of "wishbone fight" hinted at by someone way smarter than me here?

 

[MarkOttawa]

I have heard from someone well up on Canadian activities in Afstan that the government is currently planning to remove all or almost all Canadian civilians and civilian police from Kandahar as the CF withdraw, and have our civilians based in Kabul. So there goes Canadian participation in the PRT. The Americans will certainly notice the elimination of a Canadian presence on the ground in the tough places and draw their own conclusions.

But CF trainers would certainly help a lot to counterbalance.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Edward Campbell]

I have heard from someone well up on Canadian activities in Afstan that the government is currently planning to remove all or almost all Canadian civilians and civilian police from Kandahar as the CF withdraw, and have our civilians based in Kabul. So there goes Canadian participation in the PRT. The Americans will certainly notice the elimination of a Canadian presence on the ground in the tough places and draw their own conclusions.

But CF trainers would certainly help a lot to counterbalance.

Mark
Ottawa

The Americans could have and should have noticed us in 2006 and 2007 and they should have and could have done something useful, when it would have mattered. They, as the leaders of ISAF and NATO and whatever are the authors of this misfortune. No one cares much what they notice any more.

My guess is our withdrawal will be very nearly 100% - there may be a few civilians and some military observers or LOs in Kabul, nothing more would be my guess.

 

[MarkOttawa]

A trial balloon is clearly being floated–in the Liberal-friendly Toronto Star–to smoke out political, pundit and public reaction.  Lets just hope the government and Liberals can both act like grown-ups and do the right thing.

Earlier:

Afstan: Some reactions to, and consequences of, Canada’s bugging out/Fighting Germans Update
http://unambig.com/afstan-some-reactions-to-and-consequences-of-canadas-bugging-out/

Mark
Ottawa