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Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]

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rampage,

  If you read my post I did say that some FACs were Snr NCOs. I don't have the latest numbers at my hand but when I departed the CF a few years back and my past jobs as a FAC instructor and FAC SME, I can tell you that their were always more Officers trained to be FACs then Snr NCOs. And that Snr NCOs are now used in the Assistant position not the lead position. As for the non Arty positions yes ever course had positions for FACs from Inf and Tanks but thy were limited as the primary job of the Arty is and was to provide FAC support to the Army. The Artillery school is the lead agency in the Army to teach and to provide FACs. As for the future and a primary roll for full time FACs as a trade into itself I doubt it, it has always been a primary roll of the Arty Officer who was in the fire support position to provide that and I suggest it will remain that way. On the SF guys I don't know but from what my Arty and Air friends tell me Arty Officers and Snr NCOs fill that roll in the SF. The last FAC course I taught on had two SF Snr NCOs gunners on it and they were being trained as FAC assistants.
 
FYI, here's a short video of USAF Combat Controllers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty09I9ZqJ_Q

And some random info:



U.S. Air Force Fact Sheet
COMBAT CONTROLLER
 
Mission

Air Force Special Operations Command's combat controllers are Battlefield Airmen assigned to special tactics squadrons. They are trained special operations forces and certified Federal Aviation Administration air traffic controllers.

Their mission is to deploy undetected into combat and hostile environments to establish assault zones or airfields, while simultaneously conducting air traffic control, fire support, command and control, direct action, counter-terrorism, foreign internal defense, humanitarian assistance and special reconnaissance in the joint arena.

Combat Control Commandos

Assigned to Air Force Special Operations Command, combat controllers join forces with trained specialists to form highly trained Special Tactics teams. Their motto, "First There," reaffirms the combat controller’s commitment to undertaking the most dangerous missions behind enemy lines by leading the way for other forces to follow.

Training

Combat controllers are among the most highly trained personnel in the U. S. Air Force. They complete the same technical training as all air traffic controllers, and  maintain air traffic control qualification skills throughout their careers.

Many qualify and maintain currency in joint terminal attack control procedures, in addition to other special operations skills.  Their 35-week training and unique mission skills earn them the right to wear the scarlet beret.

• Combat Control Orientation Course, Lackland Air Force Base, Texas
This two-week orientation course focuses on sports physiology, nutrition, basic exercises, combat control history and fundamentals.

• Combat Control Operator Course, Keesler AFB, Miss.
This 15 and a half-week course teaches aircraft recognition and performance, air navigation aids, weather, airport traffic control, flight assistance service, communication procedures, conventional approach control, radar procedures and air traffic rules. This is the same course that all Air Force air traffic controllers attend and is the core skill of a combat controller's job.

• U.S. Army Airborne School, Fort Benning, Ga. -- Trainees learn the basic parachuting skills required to infiltrate an objective area by static line airdrop in a three-week course.

• U.S. Air Force Basic Survival School, Fairchild AFB, Wash. -- This two and a half-week course teaches basic survival techniques for remote areas. Instruction includes principles, procedures, equipment and techniques, which enable individuals to survive, regardless of climatic conditions or unfriendly environments and return home.

• Combat Control School, Pope AFB, N.C. -- This 13-week course provides final combat controller qualifications. Training includes physical training, small unit tactics, land navigation, communications, assault zones, demolitions, fire support and field operations including parachuting. At the completion of this course, each graduate is awarded the 3-skill level (journeymen), scarlet beret and CCT flash.

• Special Tactics Advanced Skills Training, Hurlburt Field, Fla.  -- Advanced Skills Training is a 12-to-15-month program for newly assigned combat controller operators. AST produces mission-ready operators for the Air Force and U.S. Special Operations Command. The AST schedule is broken down into four phases: water, ground, employment and full mission profile. The course tests the trainee’s personal limits through demanding mental and physical training. Combat controllers also attend the following schools during AST:

      U.S. Army Military Free Fall Parachutist School, Fort Bragg, N.C., and Yuma Proving Grounds, Ariz. -- This course instructs free fall parachuting procedures. The five-week course provides wind tunnel training, in-air instruction focusing on student stability, aerial maneuvers, air sense, parachute opening procedures and parachute canopy control.

      U.S. Army Combat Divers School, Panama City, Fla.  -- Trainees become combat divers, learning to use scuba and closed circuit diving equipment to covertly infiltrate denied areas. The four-week course provides training to depths of 130 feet, stressing development of maximum underwater mobility under various operating conditions.

      U.S. Navy Underwater Egress Training, Pensacola Naval Air Station, Fla. -- This one-day course teaches how to safely escape from an aircraft that has ditched in the water. Instruction includes principles, procedures and techniques necessary to get out of a sinking aircraft.

History

Army pathfinders originated in 1943 out of need for accurate airdrops during airborne campaigns of World War II.  These pathfinders preceded main assault forces into objective areas to provide weather information and visual guidance to inbound aircraft through the use of high-powered lights, flares and smoke pots.

When the Air Force became a separate service,  Air Force pathfinders, later called combat control teams, were activated in 1953  to provide navigational aids and air traffic control for a growing Air Force.  In the Vietnam War, combat controllers helped assure mission safety and expedited air traffic flow during countless airlifts. Combat controllers also flew as forward air guides in support of indigenous forces in Laos and Cambodia.

Combat controllers continue to be the "First There" when they are called upon to participate in international emergencies and humanitarian relief efforts.
 
3rd Horseman said:
rampage,

   If you read my post I did say that some FACs were Snr NCOs. I don't have the latest numbers at my hand but when I departed the CF a few years back and my past jobs as a FAC instructor and FAC SME, I can tell you that their were always more Officers trained to be FACs then Snr NCOs. And that Snr NCOs are now used in the Assistant position not the lead position. As for the non Arty positions yes ever course had positions for FACs from Inf and Tanks but thy were limited as the primary job of the Arty is and was to provide FAC support to the Army. The Artillery school is the lead agency in the Army to teach and to provide FACs. As for the future and a primary roll for full time FACs as a trade into itself I doubt it, it has always been a primary roll of the Arty Officer who was in the fire support position to provide that and I suggest it will remain that way. On the SF guys I don't know but from what my Arty and Air friends tell me Arty Officers and Snr NCOs fill that roll in the SF. The last FAC course I taught on had two SF Snr NCOs gunners on it and they were being trained as FAC assistants.

There are quite a few Snr NCO FACs that are non gunners.  I don't know the numbers regarding officer and NCOs so I'll stay out of that one.  But I'm pretty sure that the Snr NCOs that are trained in are not assistants to an officer while conducting runs, they can be I'm sure, but from what I've seen and experienced they don't.  My WO controlled several B-1s and A-10s overseas in multiple TICs without having a FAC qualified officer around to oversee him.  Usually the FOO/FAC party we had was too busy bringing the 155s in, so at times it was the FAC qualified NCO bringing in the big bombs.
 
I haven't FAC'd since '89, so can't comment on "today's" world.

I was a Sgt, airborne FAC, and taught on the FAC course.

I quit counting runs at 1,000.

And for you Arty types, I was a designated observer. (and fired Div artillery, on my call)

I was never a helper, aid, assistant, or anything else- I was the FAC. (and the FOO, and the MFC, and owned the direct fire weapons during the runs. BTW, none of that 2 min sterile tgt area for the run poop either- we had 10 seconds sterile over the target area for the low level run)

FAC was taught at AGOS in Gagetown, course was run by the G3 Air, and supported primarily by US assets. CF-5's and Hornets filled out the rest.

Never thought much of the idea of having anyone other than a combat arms guy do the runs. Most of the air force guys that I saw were wasted in the field- why take a fighter pilot and waste all of those pilot skills sitting in the mud? More to the point, most of them had to be baby-sat in the field- waste of time for us, and waste of resources for the Air Force.

I can catagorically state that there is NO reason that most anyone can not do the job- it is not rocket science. And since the new gear came on board, I honestly think the skill sets/required abilities have decreased exponentially.

Rant off.
 
3rd Horseman said:
that Snr NCOs are now used in the Assistant position not the lead position.
As MJP pointed out, that is not how we rolled in Kandahar.  Officers & Sr NCO, Arty & Infantry.  All operated as the lead.
 
MCG,

    Good new info since I was in the game in 02. In 94 rules changed and only Officers were lead (I did not agree with that decision), previous to that all were lead. I guess things have changed since I last taught in 02. Guess that is why this forum is so cool. I think now that I reflect across the thread the originator was talking about Path Finders when he discussed US combat controllers? :salute:
 
FAC Course:

Joining Instructions – Forward Air Control

The aim of this course is to prepare selected Officers and Senior NCMs for employment as Forward Air Controllers – Ground (FAC) to the level of Limited-Combat-Ready.

Duration

The course will last 32 training days; this does not include weekends, holidays and non-training (administrative) days.

Content

Performance Objective 101 – Operate in a Field Environment
Performance Objective 102 – Use FAC Equipment
Performance Objective 103 – Plan CAS Missions
Performance Objective 104 – Conduct Low Level CAS Missions
Performance Objective 105 – Conduct High Level CAS Missions
Performance Objective 106 – Conduct Night CAS Missions

Prerequisites

Officer – Members must be a minimum rank of Capt and MOC qualified to the operationally functional point.

NCM – Members must be a minimum rank of Sgt.

Have successfully completed the CF EXPRES test or Land Force BFT within the last year

Have an English language profile IAW NATO STANAG 6001 (3) in English of CCC

Hold a level II security clearance

Be recommended by the unit commanding officer

Pre-reading/Threshold Knowledge Test

There is no formal pre-reading or testing. However, there is a wealth of knowledge available on the Din and Civilian Internet about Close Air Support and Forward Air Controlling. Students may wish to research aircraft capabilities and air-to-ground ordinance for both fixed wing and helicopter gun ships.

Students will be required to use the PLGR GPS during the course. If you have not used it before some pre-learning on how to enter a waypoint, how to find a direction and distance to a target location from a known waypoint and how to convert Grid coordinates to Latitudinal and Longitudinal coordinates will help.

Students will be required to fire basic Artillery missions in support of CAS missions. Knowing how to conduct a support arms call for fire for area neutralization and to conduct a mark would be helpful. Including using binoculars or a laser-range-finder to adjust artillery.

Students will have to be able to find target locations using a prismatic compass, 1:50,000 map and using a variety of laser range finders. Understanding how to do this quickly and efficiently would help the student.

Kit required

Exercises will be tactical and may extend overnight. All field equipment is required (LCV, helmet, appropriate ablution, air mattress, ground sheet, bivie bag, rucksack and sleeping bag. The current Radio-bags for the UHF PRC 113 are very uncomfortable. It is therefore suggested that students bring their issued Day-pack to carry the radio.

PT gear for both indoor and outdoor will be required.

Storage space in student quarters is very limited so students are asked to bring a limited amount of civilian clothing and non-military items.

If you have a civilian GPS you may wish to bring it, as long as it is capable of using either Grid or Lat/Long coordinates and has a +/- 10-meter accuracy. Otherwise you will be issued with a military PLGR GPS.

DEU uniform with parade boots and shoes are not required.

ID Card and ID discs required.

Students will be issued a GPS, NVG’s, Laser Range Finder, Radio and other equipment required for the course upon arrival in Camp Gagetown.

Autobiography

Students are required to submit an autobiography, in English, on the first day of course. The text should include a brief summary of the student’s involvement with the military to date, family background, education, personal strengths and weaknesses and goals for the course. Also include if you are projecting an operational deployment as a FAC within the next 1-3 years and if your unit intends to allow you to conduct FAC continuation trg.

First Parade

Prior to the commencement of the course and upon arrival in Camp Gagetown during a weekday between 0730 and 1600hrs the student is to report to building J7, Artillery School orderly room. Upon arrival in Camp Gagetown during off-duty or after hours students are to report to main entrance of J7, Duty Accommodations were they would be issued their room key and ration card.

On the first day of the Course, students will report to the FAC Course classroom, E219 at 0730hrs. Room E219 is in the Artillery School Section of building J7. It is located on the second floor in the Southern portion of the building, directly beside the Artillery Ammo and Equipment room. Students will be met by a course representative and commence Artillery School in-clearance.

Transportation

DND transportation will normally not be available for students between their accommodations and classroom. Students who are able to drive a POMV are encouraged to do so.

All students are asked to bring valid 404’s, as there are often civilian patterned vehicles rented for the course. The sharing of driver duties is often required for some portions of the course.

Leave

Students are not normally permitted to take leave during the course. In the case where a statutory holiday occurs during training students are allowed to take leave within the Maritime Provinces (less Newfoundland) except on a case-by-case basis.

Medical

Depending on CF 18 Hornet 2-seat-ship availability, some students will get a flight as part of their training in order to understand what the pilot is required to do during Close Air Support (CAS) missions. Students are required to have a signed medical evaluation from a flight surgeon or equivalent Land Force Doctor stating that the student is physically capable of riding in a high performance aircraft. 

Augmentee Staff Information

Augmentation staff are asked to follow the same reporting procedures as outlined for students as stated above.

Augmentation staff will require all field equipment, including Tactical Vest and helmet for the course. Rucksack complete with sleeping bag and air mattress is also required in addition to appropriate environmental gear. The current Radio-bags for the UHF PRC 113 are very uncomfortable. It is therefore suggested that staff bring their issued Day-pack to carry the radio.

Please ensure you have a valid DND 404 driver license for operating civilian patterned vehicles, as there are occasions when the course will have rental vehicles.

School Point of Contact

Any questions with regards to the course of these instructions should be addressed via email or call.......
 
3rd Horseman said:
I think now that I reflect across the thread the originator was talking about Path Finders when he discussed US combat controllers?

US Air Force combat controllers deploy into hostile environments to establish assault LZs or airfields. There, they conduct air traffic control, JTAC, (gee, FOO/FAC ops and they're not even Arty officers), airspace and airdrome command and control, and support foreign internal defense. They must be FAA-certified air traffic controllers.

Army Pathfinders deploy into a DZ/LZ, by any number of means, in advance of the main body of airborne troops in order to set up navigation aids to pin-point the DZ/LZ. They provide winds on the ground, clear obstacles, establish ORVs, and secure the immediate area.

I suspect that because the thread originator mentioned Combat Controllers several times, he was discussing.....Combat Controllers, and not Pathfinders. To the best of my knowledge, neither group has recieved top-secret awards, topped off with sherry, tucked away in their pockets and never to be spoken of again.....but then again, I'm neither Combat Control or Patrol Pathfinder, so any uninformed thoughts & reflections there would be outside of my lane.
 
from what my Arty and Air friends tell me Arty Officers and Snr NCOs fill that roll in the SF.

Then your friends are misinformed.  Any "operator" can be a FAC/JTAC provided they have the required credentials.
 
eliminator said:
Leave

Students are not normally permitted to take leave during the course. In the case where a statutory holiday occurs during training students are allowed to take leave within the Maritime Provinces (less Newfoundland) except on a case-by-case basis.
Slightly OT, but the province of Newfoundland and Labrador is NOT a Maritime province.

OK, not slightly OT, but WAY OT.  Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread....
 
Strike said:
Then your friends are misinformed.  Any "operator" can be a FAC/JTAC provided they have the required credentials.

Obviously no one said they couldn't.
 
Journeyman said:
US Air Force combat controllers deploy into hostile environments to establish assault LZs or airfields. There, they conduct air traffic control, JTAC, (gee, FOO/FAC ops and they're not even Arty officers) airspace and airdrome command and control, and support foreign internal defense. They must be FAA-certified air traffic controllers.

Army Pathfinders deploy into a DZ/LZ, by any number of means, in advance of the main body of airborne troops in order to set up navigation aids to pin-point the DZ/LZ. They provide winds on the ground, clear obstacles, establish ORVs, and secure the immediate area.

I suspect that because the thread originator mentioned Combat Controllers several times, he was discussing.....Combat Controllers, and not Pathfinders.

True, but I suspect that he was looking for the Canadian equivalent, I don't know what that is, I'm suspected that Path Finder would have some of those duties. I am not a Path Finder so I to would be out of my lane commenting on it.
 
I (foolishly) turned down a Combat Controllers course in the early '90's. I had no idea what it was, just didn't feel like leaving home (again) for a course (again). Too bad.... On the upside, if it was offered to a Canadian once, maybe  the option is still there....

Got to know a few ex-combat controllers through an ATC website awhile back, and the job sounded like a hoot. Yes, our pathfinders can do some of the CC jobs, primarily as it relates to Helo ops. However, the CC job is way more involved- basically, they go into a captured airfield and bring it back to flight ops. Failing that, they'll find a relatively flat and straight section of highway and turn that into an airport. Not just a helo pad, nor even a VFR (bright sunlight ops) airfield, but a no-fooling all inclusive IFR (bad weather) airfield capable of handling transport aircrat.

No mean feat.

On top of the obvious Air Traffic Control skills, they have a huge logistical ability as well. Throw in that they're trained to fight for, and to maintain that piece of ground, and you have a very valuable resource.

Good bunch of guys, too.

 
Speaking of Canadian Combat Controllers, I found this pic on the net. Not sure if this Canadian is a true "combat controller" or just a FAC, since the caption was done by the USAF.

"A member of the Canadian Combat Controller biathlon team clears his weapon after firing during the biathlon competition at Airlift Rodeo '96 on June 24, 1996. Airlift Rodeo '96 is the United States Transportation Command's tanker/airlift competition which tests the flight and ground skills of aircrews as well as the related skills of combat control, security police, aerial port, aeromedical evacuation, and maintenance team members. Crews from the U.S. and nine other countries are participating in the competition held this year at McChord Air Force Base, Wash. DoD photo by Senior Airman Jeffrey Allen, U.S. Air Force. "

http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Jul1996/960624-F-2171A-005.html
 
3rd Horseman

I did read your post, even read it a second time and guess what, you were wrong then too. Heres some stuff you can hoist on board because things have obviously changed since you left;
-they are training more Snr NCOs(and sometimes Jacks) as FACs than offrs, probably about 3:1, reason being NCOs are in the units longer than offrs
-the primary roll of the artillery(offrs included) is to provide indirect FS, CAS is a secondary duty(see next point)
-they are finding it too hard to coord and control A/C and arty at the same time especially when a lot of the stuff is Danger Close, that is why if it was made a primary job (not trade) it would make things much easier and it already is being looked at
-this whole FAC assistant thing baffles me and I'm calling BS, why would you put someone on the same course as an offr but when it was all done just make them an assistant ? You can believe me when I tell you that NCOs are calling in A/C right now in A-stan and some aren't even qual'd never mine being just an assistant

Well thats about it dude, your probably not going to like what I just wrote but i'm telling you whats going on right now, not used to go on or whatever.....
 
I am planning to join the Air Force as an aerospace controller in the very near future. 

I havent talked to a recruit about my contract but length is going to be the first issue (of course). 

B: If I do not stay with the CF what job prospects can a former military aerospace controller expect in the civilian world? 

I live in the USA where air traffic controllers make an average of USD$100k/yr. 

Q: Regulations are different so how do military controllers get work in Canada as civilians at airports? 

Thanks for your help guys.  I look forward to returning to Canada.  This place is dirty...
 
Nothing like dragging out a 2 year old thread PLUS changing the name of it, but since you did, here are some answers and/or comments for you.


suraj216 said:
I am planning to join the Air Force as an aerospace controller in the very near future. 
Plan all you want, but until you get to Canada and apply, and then see where that takes you...don't hold your breath.


suraj216 said:
I havent talked to a recruit about my contract but length is going to be the first issue (of course). 
What kind of issue is that going to be?


suraj216 said:
B: If I do not stay with the CF what job prospects can a former military aerospace controller expect in the civilian world? 
(most people label questions with sequential numbers or letters, but whatever...)  If you are already planning on what to do with the education and training that the military spends time and money on you, then save them that time and money and stay civilian.


suraj216 said:
I live in the USA where air traffic controllers make an average of USD$100k/yr. 
This ones an easy one....then STAY in the USA!!


suraj216 said:
Q: Regulations are different so how do military controllers get work in Canada as civilians at airports? 
They don't.  Hense the reason why we are MILITARY and they are CIVILIAN.  And this question seems to be on the same line as your first one.  Make a choice here....

 
rampage800 said:
-the primary roll of the artillery(offrs included) is to provide indirect FS, CAS is a secondary duty(see next point)
To be pedantic, the role of the Field Artillery is "to assist in the defeat of the enemy with indirect fire as part of the all-arms battle." (B-GL-300-07/FP-001 "Firepower")
"Indirect Fire":Fire delivered at a target which cannot be seen by the aimer." (from AAP - 6 (U))

Does this include aircraft delivered munitions?  I would say "yes, sometimes"
 
navymich said:
(most people label questions with sequential numbers or letters, but whatever...)  If you are already planning on what to do with the education and training that the military spends time and money on you, then save them that time and money and stay civilian.

oops...i tried to bold the Q.  not everyone stays military their whole life so does anyone have a clue what civilian air traffic controllers make in Canada or will i end up looking for something completely new to do if I leave the military?  I guess I am holding my breath on the aerospace controller thing but it seems like a great skill in todays world (in high demand south of  :cdn:)...and if it all works out Id like to try it in the civilian world too.  I dont want to think thats wasting military time and money. 
 
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