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Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]

  • Thread starter Thread starter the patriot
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I love this irony:

"It‘s OK to have women in the military because that will mean I can have sex with them."

Obviously a well thought out mature opinion obtained through years of difficult military experience from someone who knows enough at ≤17 of both sex and the military to make an informed statement on the subject.

*end sarcasm*
 
Whew! i thought i‘d look like a big meany if i ripped into the cadet, so i didn‘t. As Well, Recceguys‘ reply to ‘seaforth‘ made me wet. :D
Seafroth:
Having a Background in Cadets will only get you through BMQ. That long assed course where you sit in a class and learn rank, drill and how to write a memo. When you get to SQ all of a sudden, its not all Smores & Orange Flavoured Tang. You slowly succumb to the realization that although you think you are gods gift to the parade square ;you are not. And its a rude awakening when you (a Platoon WO of the local cadet corps.) try to tell a Reserve Cpl. what to do.Believe me, I‘ve seen few things of equal halarity.

I recently taught (yes the lowly Pte. instructed!) a class of cadets things like cam and concealment, Challenge procedure, Hand signals on patrol , tent routine etc etc as I was invited on one of they‘re weekend "Excersizes". Not only were the cadets immature (as usually are kids ages of 8-13) But the cadet officers were unbelievably immature as well!! As I recall there was on preticular cadet officer (2Lt) who was wearing load bearing webbing purchased at your local Army/Navy store with a U.S Army K-Bar taped to the shoulder and ghillie suit material (burlap i think) sewn to it. Aswell I recall one instance where he had ORDERED me to salute him (in the field). Anyway, it was after this little sortie that i had begin to wonder if the Cadet movement locally, was so godd@mned embarrasing at the count of the instructors, or the Cadets. :skull:
 
Well, I hope this kid is learning a lesson here : when you don‘t know what you‘re talking about, SHUT UP !!! Training in the UK... as a cadet ??? Surely you mean the exchange program where kids mostly socialize and travel... not much "Army" trg going on there. 2893 RCACC Whatever, if you plan on joining the CF, make sure you take time to mature some more... we don‘t need you right now ! :cdn:
 
I saw awhile back when CF was still fighting in Afghanistan,the army was wondering if they should still allow women to fight during war.The reason was because they know that during war and in countries like Afghanistan and other middle eastern countries,when women are caught they are often raped over and over again.

So the question is whether they should still be aloud to fight,what do you guys think?

What do you women think about not being aloud to fight,would it be right or wrong? Would you consider that being sexist?
 
Their decision.

Let them know beforehand that such things can and do occur. If they still want to, let them sign up. The rest of the military certainly shouldn‘t be allowed to tell them not to go.
 
No.

See a "National Review" article about 3 issues back which provides some cogent reasoning on this subject. I admit that, coming from an earlier generation, the thought of my daughters fighting for me is abhorrent. Still, notwithstanding the current mythologies which are propagated daily in our schools and media (viz: Charlie‘s Angels)there are very real differences between males and females which is why there is no "women‘s NFL". Marginalizing males as we have done in society for the past twenty years or so, does alter biological or cultural fact.

It also is not a question for the Army to decide, but rather our society as a whole. In my personal opinion, the only reason that our service has received half the paltry funding that it has gotten during the current government‘s tenure, is because it has permitted social engineering (women in combat arms)on a large scale which suits this government‘s political agenda.

I know this may seem offensive to some women soldiers but it is not a mysoginistic rant. It is based on analysis of historical fact and not academic abstraction; and my peronal observations of over twenty years in emergency services. To those few female soldiers who have truly met the mark in all aspects of soldiering, I offer my respect but not my apology. It is a vast disservice to the majority of adult women to condition them to believe that the "affirmative action" environment that the majority now have grown up in,translates into reality when the you know what hits the fan. That most egalitarian of corps, the Israeli army knows this, which is why Israeliu female soldiers are trained in combat arms to permit self-protection, but there is not front-line integration with combat units except as of necessity.
 
Yes its being sexist...if you think that men are better at killing and fighting than women. Socially women are taught that it is wrong for them to fight... but that‘s just cultural thing.

Personally I think if we are in Afghanistan or any place to bring peace we are also there to show how a good country works.. and mean allowing women equal choices in life. Have women there only high lights that, and show the women there that they can have choices.

Should women be in the frontline yes. A soldier is a soldier no matter sex they are. I‘m sure their some old school guys on the forum who would disagree. But I‘ve worked with women all my working craeer and its no different, and army is no different. Yes women can be rape but its not any easier if your man.... being beaten to within inch of life is just as hard. And most nations know that if they did that, they would be paying a heavy price afterwards.
 
For the record not just woman have been raped on the battlefield. While rarer there are documented cases of male rape in warfare throughout history. remember rape is not a sexual, its about control, and often humiliation an power.
 
I would say, let them in. If they can hack it, then they are qualified. To be equal, all potential army applicants should go thorugh the same battery of tests and drills and receive the same treatment/punishment for doing things right or wrong, regadless of sex.

I know that other armies do not let women into the combat arms and I would uphold that rule only if there is substancial evidence pointing to a reason why they cannot cope.

As long as everyone‘s treated the same and has the same knowledge of what can happen in battle, anyone should be able to join the combat arms.
 
AN HONEST WOMEN: pc politicians take notice
A woman goes to war in a man‘s world
By Kirsten Scharnberg
Tribune staff reporter
May 18, 2003

"After learning that I was to be the Tribune‘s only female embedded journalist, I promised myself never to write the woman-on-the-front-lines story. It just wouldn‘t be an issue. I would find a way to blend in. I wouldn‘t be treated differently because I wouldn‘t let anyone treat me differently.

Wrong. I got my first inkling of this on the chilly March night that my unit-- the 1st Battalion of the 187th Infantry Regiment-- arrived at Camp New Jersey, one of the rudimentary tent cities that had sprung up in the Kuwaiti desert just a short Humvee ride from Iraq.

The 187th, part of the storied 101st Airborne Division, is an infantry rifle unit, which means there are no women in the ranks because U.S. servicewomen are not allowed on the front lines. So it was me and about 800 men standing in the inky desert that night, listening to a gruff first sergeant bellow out the rules. We had been traveling for several days, so I was in a sleep deprived daze, largely tuning out what was being said. But when talk turned to the showers --really just a few spouts inside a filthy single-wide trailer --my ears perked up.

"We‘ll designate a female shower time for the reporter," the first sergeant said. "We‘ll post a guard for her so she can use the showers privately once a day. I‘ll let you know the time we decide."

I hadn‘t showered in about four days. I anxiously awaited the announcement of my special shower hour. A day passed with no word. Two days. A week. Finally, I took matters into my own hands and hiked the couple kilometers to another camp where there were female soldiers and thus female shower hours.

It was a minor thing, and I actually grew to relish that solitary 5 a.m. hike through the desert haze. But it made me realize how singled out I was, how the littlest things would be the ones to trip me up and cause me to do the very thing I had wanted to avoid: stand out.

Once the war started, those moments and circumstances only became more common. Hours after my unit had set out for Iraq, an alert came over the Humvee radio that a surface-to-surface missile had hit near our convoy. It was believed to be a chemical attack, and the voice on the radio shouted for everyone to get into their chemical suits.

Everyone jumped out of the vehicles and--because those chemical suits are oppressively hot in the desert heat--first stripped to their underwear before wiggling into them. Except for me. For the next three days I thought I would die from the mistake of putting my chemical suit on over my clothes because I didn‘t want to stand in my underwear in front of an entire infantry unit in broad daylight.

The modesty had to go. Try finding a place to go to the bathroom where no one can see you in the middle of a flat, not-a-tree-or-bush-in-sight expanse of sand. Keep in mind that I had finally used the cover of darkness to shed the clothes underneath my chemical suit, which is a bulky set of interconnected garments that had to be almost entirely removed in order for me to do my business.

One day--sick to death of having to pee in front of men I‘d later have to attempt to interview with professional grace--I rejoiced to find a little lean- to dash behind. As I reveled in the first privacy I‘d had in weeks, two Apache helicopters flew over so low that I could see the shocked expressions on the pilots‘ faces.

And these were the little dilemmas. I had made a pact with myself that no matter how tired I was or how physically strenuous a mission became, I would never let one of the soldiers lug my rucksack or equipment for me. I wanted them to see me as completely capable of pulling my own weight, as a traveling companion who was not a liability but an equal.

One night, hating myself, I broke that rule. It was pitch black and we were taking constant mortar fire at a checkpoint just outside Najaf, the holy Shiite city in central Iraq. I had my rucksack, which weighed well over 70 pounds, my computer and satellite phone, my gas mask container, several bottles of water and some food.

I had been bumming rides with military vehicles for a little over a day to get up to the embattled city, and both my computer and phone were out of power, so I had added to my load a battery taken from a blown-out car, hoping that, with some alligator clips and a power inverter, I could charge my equipment.

The soldiers I had met up with said I could accompany them into the city--a 4- mile hike. I didn‘t know whether I could hike 4 feet with all that gear, let alone 4 miles, but we set out.

At about mile 2 1/2, I was about to give out. I was contemplating saying something needlessly melodramatic like, "Go ahead, save yourselves," when a soldier asked, "Ma‘am, can I carry that battery for you?"

All my resolve failed. I handed the battery to the young man--who already was lugging a much heavier load than I was, including a fully loaded M-4 assault weapon that he would be expected to use in case of an attack.

The decision nagged at me for days. Not only had I not been able to pull my own weight, I also had potentially put that young soldier at risk. What if he had not been able to aim his weapon effectively had we been ambushed in that wooded expanse of territory approaching Najaf? What if he had fallen on the rough terrain and misfired his weapon, injuring someone?

As tough as I think I was out there, as proud as I am to have lived for more than two months in conditions I never dreamed possible, those questions bother me still.

Back in Chicago recently, the Tribune had a welcome-home party for a bunch of us who had covered the war. A female editor asked me whether my experience had given me an opinion about putting female soldiers into the infantry and on the front lines.

I told her about the car battery and also about the many times I watched big, tough, burly male soldiers nearly collapse during 10-kilometer hikes with rucksacks, ammunition, TOW missiles, radios and machine guns.

I‘m not qualified to say that no woman could do that job, but I suspect that it would be a rare one who could. I had run a marathon not long before the war and worked out almost every day. I grew up on an Iowa farm where manual labor was part of the bargain. But I had been bested by a car battery, and when I handed my load to that soldier, I admitted that I never could have cut it in the Infantry."

I don‘t agree with women in the infantry. It creates a different atmosphere amongst the men. And men are partly to blame for this. You have to get over this PC mindset that everyone is completely equal cause they aren‘t. I‘m not saying there isn‘t some women who can hack it, cause I‘ve seen one who could outrun and outmarch a lot of guys (and who, incidently, doesn‘t agree with women in combat either). Radiohead, how could you know if the army is or isn‘t different from civi world, you aren‘t in yet. They are worlds apart.
 
I don‘t agree with women in the infantry. It creates a different atmosphere amongst the men. And men are partly to blame for this. You have to get over this PC mindset that everyone is completely equal cause they aren‘t.
I‘d have to agree, to a point. To ignore the obvious physiological differences between males and females is being plain naive. Luckily, I believe that we as a society are slowly learning to realize that there‘s a difference between descriminating and being sensible.

Women should be allowed to try out for any position in the military. However, they realistically should have the exact same standards required for a male to join.

Out of curiosity, those who have spent some time in the military with women - have the differences in Fitness Requirements created any animosity towards females?
 
OH PLEASE!!!

I‘ve read this article several times now; usually some smug man has posted it thinking it proves something.

It doesn‘t. It proves the journalist doesn‘t belong in an infantry unit. It also proves she‘s arrogant enough to think she can speak for her entire gender.
 
Dorosh, I‘ll be sure to run everything I post by you just to make sure you haven‘t heard it before. I apologize to you for making you read something more than once. Oh yeah, and I‘m also sorry for all that smugness I exuded in my post.

At no point in the article does she state that women can‘t do the infantry‘s job, she states "it would be a rare one who could." I don‘t think this article proves anything. It does provide one woman‘s perspective on the issue, which under the circumstances, I think, is welcome since it‘s their gender we‘re talking about. This "arrogant journalist" has more time in a warzone than most guys.
 
Considering you‘ve got "stalking hot chicks" in the "from" column under your name, I have a hard time taking anything you may have to say on this subject seriously. :confused:

You may also want to seperate the quoted material from your own last paragraph, unless we‘re to believe the original article broke into a personal aside to radiohead? ;)
 
The article made an interesting story and nothing more. Just goes to show that she could not hack it. She comes in a journalist and expects to fully pull her own in a warzone?!? Sure she ran a marathon and works out, however that does not mean that she would be a great soldier. Just because one swims competitevly, does not mean that they would automatically be good at running also.

Like it has been stated: Women should be able to try out, but must meet the same reqirements, both physical and mental of males. Furthermore they should know about the things that they may run into such as going to the WC in the open, showers and such.

It doesn‘t. It proves the journalist doesn‘t belong in an infantry unit. It also proves she‘s arrogant enough to think she can speak for her entire gender.
Well said.
 
Dorosh, there are quotations distinguishing the article from my comments, if someone neglected to notice that they should "pay attention to detail." I still fail to see how the journalist was arrogant in her comments, she never claimed to be "representing her gender." And don‘t judge me by my profile, you don‘t even know me. If I was all PC and s*** I would say people should be judged by their actions (or statements) not by appearances.

I AM NOT SAYING WOMEN CAN‘T PHYSICALLY HACK IT! Okay, now that I‘ve repeated myself twice OUGrizz, my issue has and always will be the atmosphere they bring to the platoon. Having been on an op with a female in my platoon, no matter how switched on she is, guys act differently around girls. That is my experience which forms the basis of my opinion. That is also one of the only things that the army shares with civi land.
 
Excuse me. Are you saying that the reason that the CF isn‘t getting the funding it needs is because women are allowed in combat roles? LMAO That‘s a new one.
 
No, Ma‘am - He‘s saying we wouldn‘t have gotten the few crumbs that we have, except for the fact that playing with the social dynamics suits the politicians‘ agendas - that was my take.

I will tell the board my experiences - not to be confused with my opinions. Not tossing them out, so the armchair quarterbacks can say "Well, good NCOs would‘ve fixed that" or "that‘s purely a result of poor character" blah blah blah

For many years, when I first got in, the ladies were relegated to drivers, sigs, etc. Like males, some were sharp, some were not. Eventually, the winds changed, and we found females manning the guns. Technically, the majority were very capable. Physically, some were capable, some were not. I recall 2 ladies in particular that turned into 2 of my best Det 2 I/Cs. That being said, I found, generally, the presence of females on the Guns, to be disruptive. Maybe we‘re all cavemen, in the Artillery. Maybe I didn‘t stick around long enough to re-program my archaic sub-conscious. It is very hard, sometimes, to not treat a female differently. A lifetime of opening doors, and "let me carry that for you" maybe. It is too easy, to see a girl, struggling with some task, to say "Gunner Jones, grab that for her, would you?" I think that, without meaning to, a female in the Unit wielded alot of unspoken power. 30 or 40 young men, vying for the affection of 2 or 3 female members can create a lot of angst in a Unit. Is that the girls‘ fault? Of course not. I think sometimes they recognized the effect they were having, and played upon it - but usually, it was the guys. So, I guess - does the end justify the means? Unit morale, cohesion, etc. are affected, whether it is right or not. Is it worth it, to re-program a whole Unit‘s way of thinking, in order to allow one or two a place? Maybe it is? Frankly, I don‘t know. I‘m not questioning females‘ ability. Do we want to be a country that sends young women into war? What about single mothers? Lori Piestewa was a single mother - she got killed in Iraq. Left 2 little kids. Should she have even been there? She wasn‘t even in a combat unit. It all sounds good in peacetime - it kind of hits home, when its someone from your own Community. So, you take a bunch of soldiers, and beat/explain/harangue into them to treat the girls in their Units as equals. Are they supposed to switch that off again, when they go back into the world? No more holding doors open? Again - I‘ve related my observations in actual settings, and asked some rhetorical questions. Opinions? Not sure.... I wish for simpler times, I guess :warstory:
 
Gate Guard, before you get your panties in a bunch, I never said that you mentioned that “women can’t physically hack it” I am merely trying to state that if women pass the requirements, let them in. As in the case of the journalist, she could not.

As for the atmosphere they bring to the platoon, I am saying that women should be aware of what they are getting themselves into. I agree with you that men will act differently around a women, but I also think over time, everyone can get along. Sure us guys may swear a little less and keep the perverse jokes to a minimum, but this may actually be a good thing. I’ve had an experience quite opposite to yours in where the girl was quite a “tom boy” (for lack of better word) and joked around with us. Although I would say that this type of characteristic in a female is rather rare.
 
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