Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]

[RCR Grunt]

I see I've ruffled some feathers ... good!  For Neko, I hope you are successful in whatever you choose to do, but to think that your joining a comabt arms trade is going to be just about you is ignorant.  I'm not saying girls cant or shouldnt, i'm saying men arent ready for it.  And, as the Israelis found, if the men arent ready for that handful of capable woemn, the WHOLE GODDAMMED TEMA SUFFERS!  For Mud Recce Man, I carry one stick and it measures the team.  I have seen the things I spoke of, the friction and controversy, I've been part of that, its no fun.  It does and can happen.  I'm not saying it will everytime, but it is a possibility, and one we are not prepared for.  The girls are here, and thats fine. The females want to fight... good more guns in the battle.  But, if the presence of a female witin the team can possibly disrupt the cohesiveness, should we turn a blind eye to that because she's qualified?  I'm not suggesting policy change here, I'm bringing up points for discussion.  Neko, you said "The carreer choices available to a women shouldn't depend on whether a man feels comfortable with her doing it. Why should we cater to you guys that way?"  Well, we were here first, why should we cater to you?  Men arent ready to fight alongside women, the same women we were raised to protect.  Mud Recce Man, what I meant was with changes in training to remove any cultural difference between a male and female soldier, we risk serious ramifications with regards to the conduct of our soldiers.  It is possible for the soldier to lose his sense of empathy for the people he is trying to help, thus making him less effective on a hearts and minds mission.  A diminished effectiveness will reflect poorly on the country, thus the citizens will suffer.  Maybe I'm right out of'er, and I probably am, but thats how I see it.  We werent ready for the girls!

 

[RCR Grunt]

Anyways, before i'm banned or slapped with a tuna or whatever, I'd just like to say thanks for breaking me in, this was my first heated exchange on Milnet.  That beng said I'm sure everyone thinks I'm a total Arsehole now!!  ;D

 

[armyvern]

Anyone's grunt ...

YOU are the ignorant one. Your problem ... is not the womans.

Who the hell decided it should be all about you and what you want because you aren't ready for it?? Do you have more than 19 years in?? Because if so, you've been a long time still not getting used to it. If you've got less time in, then those girls have been around doing the job since before you joined, so exactly what then ... would you be getting used to if they were there before your arrival??

If she can do her job, she desreves to be there every single bit as much as you do. If you want to continue living in a culture that says differently, that's your problem.

Thankfully, the CF has gotten over those sterotypical cultural values and now operates in the 21st century mindset. Perhaps it's high time you do as well.

 

[Gimpy]

I see I've ruffled some feathers ... good!  For Neko, I hope you are successful in whatever you choose to do, but to think that your joining a comabt arms trade is going to be just about you is ignorant.  I'm not saying girls cant or shouldnt, i'm saying men arent ready for it.  And, as the Israelis found, if the men arent ready for that handful of capable woemn, the WHOLE GODDAMMED TEMA SUFFERS!  For Mud Recce Man, I carry one stick and it measures the team.  I have seen the things I spoke of, the friction and controversy, I've been part of that, its no fun.  It does and can happen.  I'm not saying it will everytime, but it is a possibility, and one we are not prepared for.  The girls are here, and thats fine. The females want to fight... good more guns in the battle.  But, if the presence of a female witin the team can possibly disrupt the cohesiveness, should we turn a blind eye to that because she's qualified?  I'm not suggesting policy change here, I'm bringing up points for discussion.  Neko, you said "The carreer choices available to a women shouldn't depend on whether a man feels comfortable with her doing it. Why should we cater to you guys that way?"  Well, we were here first, why should we cater to you?  Men arent ready to fight alongside women, the same women we were raised to protect.  Mud Recce Man, what I meant was with changes in training to remove any cultural difference between a male and female soldier, we risk serious ramifications with regards to the conduct of our soldiers.  It is possible for the soldier to lose his sense of empathy for the people he is trying to help, thus making him less effective on a hearts and minds mission.  A diminished effectiveness will reflect poorly on the country, thus the citizens will suffer.  Maybe I'm right out of'er, and I probably am, but thats how I see it.  We werent ready for the girls!

So because men aren't ready for women in combat arms all the women who want to be in combat arms should suffer? Thats bullshit and if you honestly think that way you are stuck in the 50's. If men aren't ready then why should the women have to be the ones to deal with it?

 

[mudrecceman]

For Mud Recce Man, I carry one stick and it measures the team.  I have seen the things I spoke of, the friction and controversy, I've been part of that, its no fun.  It does and can happen.  I'm not saying it will everytime, but it is a possibility, and one we are not prepared for.  The girls are here, and thats fine. The females want to fight... good more guns in the battle.  But, if the presence of a female witin the team can possibly disrupt the cohesiveness, should we turn a blind eye to that because she's qualified?  I'm not suggesting policy change here, I'm bringing up points for discussion.

Thats the stick that counts and I thought you would have that one.  As I have said too, I am not saying it DOESN'T happen..only I haven't seen a great deal of it.  Things are different all over!  ;D

I see the points you are bringing up...and the dual "society" and "CF culture" questions that come out of 'em.

Mud Recce Man, what I meant was with changes in training to remove any cultural difference between a male and female soldier, we risk serious ramifications with regards to the conduct of our soldiers.  It is possible for the soldier to lose his sense of empathy for the people he is trying to help, thus making him less effective on a hearts and minds mission.  A diminished effectiveness will reflect poorly on the country, thus the citizens will suffer.  Maybe I'm right out of'er, and I probably am, but thats how I see it.  We werent ready for the girls!

What cultural differences, and are they to negate what happened to the guys per the IDF report?  I had seen that one before.  It happened.  Hard to argue facts.

Hopefully this thread stays on track.  ;D

 

[armyvern]

And, as the Israelis found, if the men arent ready for that handful of capable woemn, the WHOLE GODDAMMED TEMA SUFFERS!  For Mud Recce Man, I carry one stick and it measures the team.  I have seen the things I spoke of, the friction and controversy, I've been part of that, its no fun.  It does and can happen.  I'm not saying it will everytime, but it is a possibility, and one we are not prepared for.  The girls are here, and thats fine. The females want to fight... good more guns in the battle.  But, if the presence of a female witin the team can possibly disrupt the cohesiveness, should we turn a blind eye to that because she's qualified? 

She's qualified then she deserves to be there.

Effects Team cohesiveness?? Then get rid of the god-damned man who can't get past his sterotypical viewpoint ... because that is WHO is ruining the team. Not the woman doing her job.

 

[RCR Grunt]

She's qualified then she deserves to be there.

Effects Team cohesiveness?? Then get rid of the god-damned man who can't get past his sterotypical viewpoint ... because that is WHO is ruining the team. Not the woman doing her job.

... But what if its all of them?  Do we send her into battle alone?

 

[armyvern]

... But what if its all of them?  Do we send her into battle alone?

Thankfully, the vast majority of men do not share your viewpoint. I'm married to one of those RCRs. Get over yourself already.

 

[neko]

Anyone's Grunt

I disagree with you about men being raised as protectors of women, (I edited my previous post to add something about this).
Maybe some of you are raised that way, plenty aren't and I've tangled with a few of them. We here about them in the news. I don't consider men to be a chivlarous bundh of creatures, when I meet one I could be running into a decent guy or a nasty piece of work. And just to clarify what the hell do you think you are protecting us from? Other men perhaps? Protecting women is not an inherent quality in men and it certainly isn't a major part of our culture. Women have suffered violence at the hands of men countless times, within the home and from strangers.

And so what if men were in the combat arms first. That's a childish and unchilvarous argument. Why can't you guys learn to work with us anyway? Doesn't the military teach you teamwork? I thought that was a big part of the military, that it was necessary for the military to function well. If the men are the ones who can't work as a team punish the men not the women.

 

[RCR Grunt]

... But what if its all of them?  Do we send her into battle alone?

The point of this ...

If you have a section of SOLDIERS and they are going overseas, but have been distracted and performing poorly in their duties as combat arms SOLDIERS because one of the other SOLDIERS for whatever reason, but that problem SOLDIER is "qualified,"  you advocate keeping that SOLDIER around at the risk of the other 9 SOLDIER'S well being?  If thats what you are saying, well I'll let someone else finish this post ...

 

[Gimpy]

The point of this ...

If you have a section of SOLDIERS and they are going overseas, but have been distracted and performing poorly in their duties as combat arms SOLDIERS because one of the other SOLDIERS for whatever reason, but that problem SOLDIER is "qualified,"  you advocate keeping that SOLDIER around at the risk of the other 9 SOLDIER'S well being?  If thats what you are saying, well I'll let someone else finish this post ...

If those 9 soldiers are distracted by a female doing her job then maybe those 9 soldiers need to grow up? Are male police officers stumbling over their feet when partnered with a female officer? No, so why should it be any different in the CF.

 

[RCR Grunt]

... Because they arent in the CF and not in the CBT arms maybe?  Apples and oranges.

 

[Gimpy]

... Because they arent in the CF and not in the CBT amrs maybe?  Apples and oranges.

Not really, if women can take part in other dangerous jobs such as police officers, firefighters and the like without men drooling or stumbling over them then why can't they do the same in the CF and combat arms trades?

 

[RCR Grunt]

... Because the average OPP officer or firefighter doesnt get mortared, blown up, burnt, shot at and rocketed, see his buddies guts splayed across the desert and be forced to leave him their to carry on the mission.

 

[RCR Grunt]

In any case, all I was saying is maybe its not the women, maybe its the men.  And, maybe there isnt a quick fix, a 3 day course isnt going to undo what my momma taught me, and it wont do it for others either.  I'm done here, seems I've been either been hung out to dry or I'm way off base, either way...enjoy your thread.

 

[Gimpy]

... Because the average OPP officer or firefighter doesnt get mortared, blown up, burnt, shot at and rocketed, see his buddies guts splayed across the desert and be forced to leave him their to carry on the mission.

I didn't realize the CF has a monopoly on death and suffering. While those specific situations don't occur to police officers and firefighters they have to deal with Canadian civilian lives on a daily basis whereas troops deployed overseas never deal with their own citizens on a daily basis. Firefighters and police officers still have to deal with seeing dead bodies, saving lives, and harrowing situations, and my point still stands they don't have problems with women in their ranks.

 

[RCR Grunt]

When an OPP officer goes down, his partner will, no doubt have some time off to handle it... When we lost a man it was "suck it up, soldier on."  There's your difference.

 

[RCR Grunt]

In any case, all I was saying is maybe its not the women, maybe its the men.  And, maybe there isnt a quick fix, a 3 day course isnt going to undo what my momma taught me, and it wont do it for others either.  I'm done here, seems I've been either been hung out to dry or I'm way off base, either way...enjoy your thread.

Read it again, this time I mean it, seriously ... someone say something new and controversial so people will leave me alone.

 

[HItorMiss]

I disagree with you about men being raised as protectors of women, (I edited my previous post to add something about this).
Maybe some of you are raised that way, plenty aren't and I've tangled with a few of them. We here about them in the news. I don't consider men to be a chivalrous bundh of creatures, when I meet one I could be running into a decent guy or a nasty piece of work. And just to clarify what the hell do you think you are protecting us from? Other men perhaps? Protecting women is not an inherent quality in men and it certainly isn't a major part of our culture. Women have suffered violence at the hands of men countless times, within the home and from strangers.

Neko your doing what you accuse Men of doing, highlighting the example of the minority an painting the majority with that brush. Wether you like it or not the vast Majority of men are raise to protect woman and cherish woman. Rightly or wrongly that's a cultural bias instilled in western childed for centuries. And As for what we are protecting you from well that  would be the ever elusive unknown factor of any conflict wherein you could/would/are hurt in. The IDF report highlighted that an injured woman received undo protection far past that of other males simply based on her sex and the instinctual reaction of men to protect women. What has not been said is how well those women were integrated into their units before Combat occurred, however knowing the IDF I would hazard that they were fully integrated and that it was a complete surprise to then when that instinc occurred.

And so what if men were in the combat arms first. That's a childish and unchilvarous argument. Why can't you guys learn to work with us anyway? Doesn't the military teach you teamwork? I thought that was a big part of the military, that it was necessary for the military to function well. If the men are the ones who can't work as a team punish the men not the women.

We have and are working with you on a daily basis and were all one team that does it it's job to a very high standard, You missed that Grunt never said women could not do the job, in fact he said they could. What he said was that until Men change how it is we view woman, then  said women could or might become a detriment to the team and that IS unacceptable.



Vern,

You may not like the way the vast majority of people raise their children (myself included) but it's the cultural norm far an above the concept of equality. And it is that norm which could come back to bite our butt's unless the system of training changes to change the LEARNED instinct of the majority of men. And that change in training has ramifications we are going to have to address even as we change that training system.

 

[HItorMiss]

Gimpy your way off Base, though you're right that it's not as huge an issue it is still an issue even withing the ranks of the OPP and I believe every major police force in Canada. Also Again Anyone's Grunt is right, when it comes to dealing with the ramifications of death the Soldier gets the deal with it when your home Mission now. The Police officer has mandatory time off and counciling.

Also Combat that the Police face is far different from the Combat faced by the Soldier, The Police Officer "MAY" in the course of his/her career face on time they must use their firearm. Myself I have done more times then I want to talk about or ever wish to again. So it sure is Apples and Oranges the "MIGHT" vs the "WILL" makes that argument moot and notworth adding to this thread.