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Adscam/ Gomery Inquiry/ et al

Why do we keep electing these people?

  • Stupidity

    Votes: 15 55.6%
  • No guts

    Votes: 12 44.4%

  • Total voters
    27
Edward Campbell said:
My solution?

In short, Mr. Coady, I think a reformation of sorts, within our established, indeed comfortable political system is needed to accomplish the ends I see as necessary.   I think all Canadians need to participate in this process because I think Mr. MacLeod is right about the nature of political parties in the 21st century: they are mechanistic election campaign management organizations, too far removed from policy and values.   I believe we, people like you and me, Mr. Coady, need to take back the parties and bend them to our wills.

Well Mr.Campbell, I was a Liberal for 25 years and after many years on the inside of the party trying to bring about change along with others, we were driven out by the money people and here in Nova Scotia that was mainly the backroom  lawyers. So I crossed to the NDP because I was of the belief that they were the peoples party and I was very soon to learn that they were not the peoples party, but the Unions Party.

In other words union ruled the NDP as the business community ininfluenceshe Liberal Party, I never joined the Conservative Party, because I was told out right that they were a tight organization influencedy the business community as well.

So where does one turn to?

I along with others started looking at an independent candidate movement and we have been encouraged by the number of people who are interested and I must say that a number of women are looking at this as a possible way of breaking that old boys club barrier that they faced when they were involved in party politics.

Who know, maybe some day we will have a mix of parties and independents elected and maybe we will have elected candidates that will be more loyal to their constituents that they are to the party, now that would be something wouldn't it?

Mr. MacLeod has made a strong case for change and what you have posted is most interesting, I agree with some of your suggestions and you are correct, hopefully Canadian will get interested in their country enough to bbring about positive political reforms which will position this country as a real example as a just society.
Right now we have laws , but no justice and the latest release of Homoika is an example why we should not be proud.

Laws create arguments and arguments make lawer very rich, it is time we had some justice. 
 
The fact it was delivered into his hands and is unavailable to the press and public until tomorrow sums up the situation pretty well.

Still, lets all put a big X on the calendars. Mr Dithers did say 30 days to an election, right?
 
a_majoor said:
Still, lets all put a big X on the calendars. Mr Dithers did say 30 days to an election, right?

Wait for it. He wouldn't have made that promise without an out. Besides, isn't this just an interm report? The official, final one doesn't hit til the New Year. THEN it's thirty days, so look at at least Feb. He won't risk a Xmas election, but will expect the frozen weather of Feb to keep most voters home for the day.
 
recceguy said:
Wait for it. He wouldn't have made that promise without an out. Besides, isn't this just an interm report? The official, final one doesn't hit til the New Year. THEN it's thirty days, so look at at least Feb. He won't risk a Xmas election, but will expect the frozen weather of Feb to keep most voters home for the day.

No no, you don't have it. He's just going to declare himself Prime Minister for life, thirty days after an election.

Seriously though, he'll probably start saying he never talked about elections, or tell another outright lie of the sort.

Gotta love democracy, eh?
 
Fred...
Have you ever caught him in an out and out lie?
 
Rick_Donald said:
Why do the people of Canada continue to reward the present reigning party with election after election when all these cold hard facts about lying, scamming,fraud and waste keep slapping them in the face?
  Why do people keep saying that even if the Conservatives did win the election that they would be just as bad when you haven't even given the Conservatives a chance since the 80's?

A lack of acceptable personality among Conservative candidates as well as a feeling that the conservatives are not truly a national party.
 
By acceptable personality, you mean of course a leader who hails from either Ontario or Quebec.....
 
The "Martini" spin doctors (having advanced access to the report) have been able to spin the report placing the blame on Creitien and claiming that Martin was completley innocent.

Since he was both the President of the Quebec Caucus and the Minister of Finance during the period in question, this means either the "Martinis" were able to execute an excellent cover up and pin the blame on Creitien, which also weakens the internal rivals inside the Liberal Party, or that Martin is entirely clueless (how could the President of the Quebec Caucus and the Minister of Finance be unaware of such a large scale operation happening in areas of his jurisdiction?)

Either answer (and there really does not seem to be a third possibility) means that the man is unfit for office, and a political party which could raise such a person to high office is also unfit to govern.

Feel free to quote this opinion wherever you like.
 
a majoor....
having worked in business finance, once he's reviewed the budget, the VP Finance susally does not go into the nitty gritty detail of all the transactions that have gone thru the account... he'll typicaly leave that to the indians to sort out, record & if something is wrong... to sing out.

It's been well documented that Martin and the Chrétien/Gagliano crowd did not get along together - there was plenty of acrimony. While finance minister, Martin kept some budget surplus numbers very close to the vest so that Chrétien & cronies did not get wind of all that extra money they could squander / spend for little value... you'll probably find that the Old guard were probably sworn to secrecy.

It's something like when Brian Mulroney when he retired..... Kim Campbell really didn't know what hit her. He ran the PC party into the ground and then claimed the country was in the best of shape when KC got the party nod.
 
Quote from Geo,
having worked in business finance, once he's reviewed the budget, the VP Finance usually does not go into the nitty gritty detail of all the transactions that have gone thru the account... he'll typicaly leave that to the indians to sort out, record & if something is wrong... to sing out.

Well that maybe true, but the chance of said VP finance not only keeping his job but getting promoted on top of that would be considered ludicrous.....
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Quote from Geo,
having worked in business finance, once he's reviewed the budget, the VP Finance usually does not go into the nitty gritty detail of all the transactions that have gone thru the account... he'll typicaly leave that to the indians to sort out, record & if something is wrong... to sing out.

Well that maybe true, but the chance of said VP finance not only keeping his job but getting promoted on top of that would be considered ludicrous.....

But that has little to do with Paul Martin - Chretien left and Martin was the best man for the job of being his replacement.

You'd think Chretien would just lie down and take one for the team but that doesn't seem to be his way...
 
geo said:
having worked in business finance, once he's reviewed the budget, the VP Finance susally does not go into the nitty gritty detail of all the transactions that have gone thru the account... he'll typicaly leave that to the indians to sort out, record & if something is wrong... to sing out.

It's been well documented that Martin and the Chretien/Gagliano crowd did not get along together - there was plenty of acrimony. While finance minister, Martin kept some budget surplus numbers very close to the vest so that Chretien & cronies did not get wind of all that extra money they could squander / spend for little value... you'll probably find that the Old guard were probably sworn to secrecy.

Mr Martin had multiple avenues of information, as Minister of Finance, Treasury Board President, Deputy Prime Minister, and President of the Quebec Caucus. He also had intimate dealings with riding associations across Canada, in order to carry out his coup against Chreitien. In addition, he is often portrayed (in fact touted) as a very "hands on" manager, who needs to know all the details and make all the decisions.

Given all this, I personally do not protestations of "not knowing" to be very believable, but if we accept this as being true, then you need to ask what else got "overlooked" while he was fulfilling all these roles and micromanaging everything in these files?
 
Michael,
Chrétien hates Martin with a passion. Been that way for a while - like from the time that they ran against each other for the party leadership.... and Jean like Dubya does not forget and certainly never forgives.

Majoor,
you may be right, the finance minister shoulda known.... but as it stands right now, he's convinced the commissioner that he didn't... go figure!

Now, if we could only get a party leader from another party that would have some personality and could project the image that he / they represent the whole country we could get started in carving out a new era....

What scares me is that, if new Gov't gets into town.... spending freeze goes into effect until new Gov't gets it's feet wet and gets up to speed on where it is and where it wants to go............
Something to look forward to.
 
Here is an interesting piece from the Globe and Mail's web site at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051114.wcomment1114/BNStory/National/

My emphasis added.

It is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
Web-exclusive comment

Let's learn Gomery's lesson
An effective civil service is the best defence against public abuse and institutional failure

By HUGH SEGAL

Monday, November 14, 2005 Posted at 2:05 AM EST
Special to Globe and Mail Update

The first report of the Gomery commission has once again brought the issue of government mismanagement to centre stage, with the inevitable finger-pointing, blame-shifting and column-writing that accompanies such an event.

But the content of the report does not shake my belief that we have a public service that is, though not perfect in every respect, among the finest in the world. When we see individual public servants singled out in official inquiries or specific court cases for alleged or proven wrongdoing, those events are newsworthy precisely because they are very much the exception.

By focusing on the bad apples in the public service, the buzz around the Gomery report risks deflecting attention from the broader issue of effective delivery, administration and management, which I believe is the core challenge facing governments, at a time of increasing demands for coherence, co-operation and network operations.

The challenge is epitomized in Canada's governments today by the increasing prevalence of "floating executives" with generalist economic or social policy skills, who move among departments in frequent rotations and promotions. In recent years, deputy ministers typically stay five years - and often less than three - in a given department.

Such rotations worked when the visiting deputy minister could be supported by assistant deputy ministers (ADMs) and directors-general who themselves had come up from the operational and street-level roots of the department and had precise technical and practical experience. But with the advent of the rotating ADMs and the accelerated executives, we have a cycle in some departments where the constant movement of senior officials diminishes both real accountability and genuine connection to the delivery end of the ministry or departmental statutory mandate.

My concern is not about senior public servants not working their hardest or trying their best. But, in a context that dilutes the administrative drill-down ability of a department to actually do the job for which it is both funded and established, even the best efforts can be in vain.

In everything from policy relative to aboriginal communities and first nations, to Kyoto and income security measures, we have seen failures in coherence and intended impact and outcome that all of us deeply lament. Some of this happens when governments reduce complement and operational capacity while increasing pressure for output and delivery. Some of this happens when program goals are fuzzy or contradictory. But some of it is because many departments lack the implementation expertise to actually execute effectively and evaluate that execution in simple and direct terms.

In a policy environment in which governments must respond in a coherent, co-operative and joint manner, [/i]we lack institutions that provide education and training opportunities for public service, military and police officers to develop operational capacity. The National Defence College, closed by the Chrétien government in 1994 as a cost-saving measure, once provided such an opportunity through a year-long course in the area of national and international security studies. Should we not ask whether such an institution needs to be recreated on a broader scale to help public servants better understand and implement the spectrum of policy challenges that face Canada today?[/i]

Virtually every other democratic country has some form of a public or civil service staff college with formal professional development courses for those selected for higher administrative responsibility. Canada does not. Why?

Our challenge here is to be rational and balanced. The fact that some things do not work well (as the Gomery report vividly illustrates) does not mean that everything is going to hell in a hand basket. But, it is vital that we engage fully on the opportunity that focused execution-capacity actually represents.

Senator Hugh Segal is president of the Institute for Research on Public Policy, which is co-hosting, with the Trudeau Foundation, a conference titled Responsibilities of Citizenship & Public Service: Crisis or Challenge?

© Copyright 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.

I have no doubt that the public service, including the parts most important to the military (PCO, DND, DFAIT, TB and Finance) has been degraded (maybe worse) over the past 20 years - partially through cuts but, maybe more, through social engineering which has been just as pervasive (although less controversial) in the PS as in the military.  'Who' one is - in racial, cultural, gender and, especially, linguistic terms - matters more, I think than 'what one can do.'  The end result is that fewer people (and there were real cuts in parts of the PS, are doing more work but too many of them are doing it with inadequate skill and knowledge.  It is my belief that current PS HR policies are driving out good, experienced people who are, quite simply, tired of working with - even for - poorly qualified individuals.

I need to emphasize that I am not a public servant, never was in the civil service, and never applied for a civil service position, but I do work with some government organizations and I have friends in the PS.  In fact when I retire next year I believe my replacement will be a PS EX who wants to retire for just the reasons I stated above.

A sound, competent, apolitical public service is one of the key foundation stones of a successful Westminster style parliamentary democracy.  I believe ours has, over the past 35+ years, has been systematically degraded so that it is suspect in both areas.

 
Here is a story the Parliamentry Press Gallery is NOT following (Hmmmmm........). IF what Mr Guite is saying is true, then there is a huge amount of follow up work to do to make a full accounting (and settling of accounts) on ADSCAM. Where is the fourth estate to do the investigative journalism required to bring this story front and centre?

http://www.boundbygravity.com/2006/05/guites-documents.aspx

Guite's Documents  

AdScam was back in the news a couple weeks ago, and somehow I missed it. I don't remember seeing any bloggers picking this up, but Politics Watch was all over it:

While Gomery's findings were quickly assumed as gospel by the media and opposition parties, he never did explain how Guite and a Quebec Liberal party organizer could use the vast machinery of government and Crown corporations without anyone else's knowledge.

But recent testimony and documents at Guite's trial this week is beginning to point the finger at the PMO, suggesting involvement in the advertising and polling contracts handed out through the public works department, even though the Liberals promised to take politics out of contracting when they came to power.

On Monday, Guite dropped his own bombshell and produced an April 1995 letter from Pelletier to Guite's boss at the time, the public works minister David Dingwall.

Guite planted the suggestion that the PMO was involved in overseeing advertising rules.

"After 17 months in government, I believe it is an opportune time to again draw attention to the Treasury Board policy on contracting for polling and advertising," Pelletier wrote.

Pelletier said PMO director of operations Jean Carle would be "the individual responsible for ensuring that the policy has been respected."

Guite producing that letter during his trial fits into the underlying theme of his defence that his political masters were aware of what he was doing.

But even more interesting is it reveals that Guite may have covered his tracks and has kept documents more than a decade old.

Of course, this begs the question: so why didn't this come up during the Gomery Commission?

The article contains two other fragments of testimony that link Chretien's PMO to the Sponsorship Scandal.
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070627.LAFLEUR27/TPStory/National

Fair Dealings....


Disgraced ad executive Lafleur will learn his sentence today
DANIEL LEBLANC

June 27, 2007

OTTAWA -- Jean Lafleur no longer has his own tennis court. His collection of expensive paintings has been sold. Gone too is the luxurious cottage in the Eastern Townships.
And the millions he made as an adman at the heart of the sponsorship program? Vanished ... at least from his Canadian bank accounts.

With all that in mind, a judge in Montreal will announce this afternoon how many months Mr. Lafleur will spend in prison for his criminal involvement in the sponsorship scandal.
Madam Justice Suzanne Coupal will also rule on a critical question: How much, if anything, will Mr. Lafleur have to pay back to Canadian taxpayers, on whose backs he built much of his fortune a decade ago?
The former president and owner of Lafleur Communication Marketing has pleaded guilty to 28 charges of fraud involving $1.5-million in sponsorship contracts, and is facing a term of between 2½ and five years.

At his sentencing hearings this month, however, the Crown and the defence painted widely divergent pictures of Mr. Lafleur's current financial situation.
With the help of police investigators, the Crown depicted Mr. Lafleur as a high-flying adman with a penchant for trips across Latin America, and who seemed bent on stashing funds in tax havens, too.

In recent years, Mr. Lafleur has lived in Costa Rica and Belize, and travelled to Mexico, Brazil and France, sometimes for weeks on end. The Crown added that soon after Mr. Lafleur sold a cottage in Sutton, Que., for $1.5-million in 2004, he tried to transfer the amount to a bank in the Bahamas.
The transaction was flagged as fishy by the bank and it did not proceed.

Still, Mr. Lafleur's bank accounts in Canada have fallen dramatically in size over the years, according to the Crown. An account at CIBC Wood Gundy now holds about $20,000, whereas it contained up to $3-million a few years ago.
Another account at CIBC is worth less than $2,000, despite having held more than $500,000 in early 2005.
Most of Mr. Lafleur's remaining money in Canada is at Canaccord Capital, where he has $411,000 in RRSP form and $20,000 in cash, the Crown showed.

Still, Mr. Lafleur declared assets of more than $2-million last year when he applied for a credit card in Belize.
Mr. Lafleur's lawyer at the sentencing hearing, Jean-Claude Hébert, went to great lengths to play down his client's wealth earlier this month. Lafleur Communication raked in more than $80-million in federal contracts from the mid-1990s until the sale of the company in 2001, but Mr. Hébert said almost all of the money was used to cover expenses.

Mr. Lafleur's salary in those days ate up about $10-million, but Mr. Hébert said that after taxes and support payments, Mr. Lafleur only took home about $400,000 a year.
Mr. Lafleur has also hinted that he does not wish to reimburse a $1.5-million sum obtained through the use of 76 fake or inflated invoices. In a handwritten letter to Judge Coupal, he said he has numerous regrets and suggested that he wishes to pay his debt to society in time rather than cash.

"The regret that gnaws at me is to have, in a few years, wasted my life and, more importantly, mortgaged my kids' lives. ... This regret is accompanied by a wish: To pay back my debt to society at the expense of my freedom, and to return to my loved ones as soon as possible," he wrote.



Yea, because we all know how hard jail is these days. I'm sure his lawyers have already picked out which one has the best golf course.

Take his money.....

 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
...
Yea, because we all know how hard jail is these days. I'm sure his lawyers have already picked out which one has the best golf course.

Take his money.....

Agreed.  Jail time does nothing to punish most 'white collar' criminals.  It (jail) may make the general public feel better, briefly, but that's hardly a reason to 'punish' in that way.

Harsh, exemplary financial punishments hurt and, in some cases and if properly applied, might help some victims, too.
 
Here is the good news, reproduced from today’s Globe and mail under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070627.wlafleur_sentence0527/BNStory/National/home
Payback time for Lafleur
Jean Lafleur sentenced to 42 months and told to return all of the $1.5-million he took from Canadian taxpayers

THAN TU HA
Globe and Mail Update

June 27, 2007 at 3:23 PM EDT

Former Montreal ad executive Jean Lafleur has been sentenced to 48 months in jail, the harshest penalty so far against someone involved in the sponsorship scandal.

When taking into account the time he has already spent in detention, Mr. Lafleur got an additional 42 months. He will be eligible for some sort of parole in seven months.

Quebec Court Judge Suzanne Coupal also ordered him to repay the whole of the $1.5-million he admitted to defrauding from federal sponsorship contracts that were supposed to help improve Ottawa's image in Quebec.

Because he is a first-time offender for a non-violent crime, Mr. Lafleur is expected to be eligible to some form of parole after one sixth of his sentence.

Crown attorney Ann-Mary Beauchemin had asked for a sentence of 4 ½ to five years and repayment of the entire sum of the 28 government contracts

Defence lawyer Jean-Claude Hébert had suggested a 30-month sentence.

Mr. Lafleur once wooed top federal Liberals as his advertising firm clinched millions in government contracts. The Gomery inquiry heard that he took influential politicians on salmon fishing trips and courted heads of Crown corporations with champagne in a Montreal Canadiens corporate box.

The 66-year-old Mr. Lafleur was a target of broad public scorn after his 2005 testimony at the inquiry headed by Justice John Gomery. Mr. Lafleur claimed a bad memory to avoid questions about how millions of sponsorship dollars were misspent by Ottawa in its ill-fated campaign to increase visibility in Quebec.

The judge said Mr. Lafleur preferred looking like “an imbecile” rather than tell the truth.

In his report, Judge Gomery noted that Mr. Lafleur was involved as early as 1996 in talks at the birth of what would become the sponsorship program.

Mr. Lafleur pleaded guilty to 28 of 35 counts of fraud last April after returning to Quebec from Belize when an international arrest warrant was issued against him.

The Crown presented evidence during pre-sentencing arguments suggesting that Mr. Lafleur had funnelled his assets out of Canada.

Mr. Lafleur's account with CIBC Wood Gundy held $3-million in 2002 but had shrivelled to $23,000 by 2005 because of a number of withdrawals, an RCMP fraud investigator, Cpl. Richard Sabourin, told the court.

A country house Mr. Lafleur owned in Sutton, a hilly, verdant part of Quebec's Eastern Townships, sold for $1.5-million in December of 2004. Two months later, the RCMP's Integrated Proceeds of Crime Unit was advised by the Montreal branch of the Banque Nationale de Paris that a lawyer representing Mr. Lafleur wanted to transfer $1.5-million to the Bahamas. The bank refused to execute the transaction.

By 2006, Mr. Lafleur had moved to Belize. The court heard that the manager of the Belize Bank of San Pedro stopped a $9,960 transfer to Mr. Lafleur's account from a Toronto bank. The manager thought the amount was too close to the $10,000 limit over which Mr. Lafleur would have to declare the money's origin.

RCMP investigators found that Mr. Lafleur said on credit card applications in Belize that he earned $20,000 a year in the Central American country, had $1.6-million in Canadian funds and $140,000 in U.S. funds as of August 2006.

While in Belize, Mr. Lafleur bought a $17,000 motorboat and rented an ocean-view apartment for $1,100 (U.S.) a month while he kept an empty flat in Montreal at $1,425 (Canadian) a month.

During that time, he also travelled to Brazil, Costa Rica, France and Mexico.

As a general principle I oppose jailing most white collar criminals – I regard jail as an expensive way to separate dangerous offenders from likely victims.  I think we have better, cheaper ways of depriving offenders of their liberty.  I think the ‘best’ punishment for most white collar criminals involves some combination of restitution, exemplary financial penalties (which may ‘deprive’ the offender’s immediate family) and community service.

 
He doesn't miss a trick does he?......a scam man to the very end.


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080724/sponsorship_scandal_080724/20080724?hub=Canada

Disgraced adman Jean Lafleur files for bankruptcy
Updated Thu. Jul. 24 2008 11:22 PM ET

The Canadian Press

MONTREAL -- Following his son's example, disgraced formed advertising executive Jean Lafleur has filed for bankruptcy, threatening to leave Ottawa on the hook for more than $7 million.
Lafleur was handed 42-month prison sentence last year and ordered to pay a $1.5-million fine for his role in the sponsorship scandal.

The 67-year-old was recently released from jail, and indicated in court documents that he was unable to pay the fine.
He blamed his financial woes on his "criminal conviction."
According to the documents, Lafleur sold his home near Sutton, Que. in 2005 for $1.5 million.

His lawyer deposited the money in a bank account in Liechtenstein, which Lafleur then accessed to live in Costa Rica and Belize until he turned himself in to police in April 2007.
He still owes Revenue Canada $181,000, Revenue Quebec $174,000 and $1.3 million of his fine.
The federal government is also seeking $6.5 million from Lafleur in a civil suit that is to get underway this fall.

Ottawa is trying to recoup funds that Lafleur over billed the government for sponsorship work.
His company, Lafleur Communication Marketing, made $36 million in royalties from federal contracts between 1994 and 2000.
Government lawyer Sylvain Lussier said Thursday that he intends to ask federal bankruptcy authorities to examine Lafleur's filings closely.

Lafleur's son, Eric, declared himself broke in 2007 and settled a $2 million civil suit with Ottawa by agreeing to pay back $150,000 over 10 years.
Eric Lafleur served as a subcontractor for his father's firm.
Jean Lafleur pleaded guilty to 28 counts of sponsorship-related fraud after giving 76 fake bills to Charles Guite, the bureaucrat who was responsible for the program in the federal government's Public Works Department in the 1990s.
 
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