D
dutchie
Guest
Any guesses how long it takes for this Government to fall?
I bet we're back at the polls before July.
I bet we're back at the polls before July.
Adscam/ Gomery Inquiry/ et al
- Thread starter bossi
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Infanteer said:
I would say yes... if money was funnelled back into the Liberal Party from public funds, this would have given them a distinct financial advantage when election time came around... elections are won and lost by PR campaigns... this is direct interference in the democratic process and should be taken very seriously... much more so than a few corrupt politicians lining their pockets... that is if it's true of course
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Some liberals should go to jail. You'd think the head of finances would know about this. Will any? I highly doubt it, they will probably try to find a scape goat. If any do go to jail, it will probably be some guy nobody has ever heard of.
- Reaction score
- 33
- Points
- 560
[sarcasm]Since Paul Martin claims the Liberal Party is the victim of Adscam, then the only proper response is to start jailing taxpayers[/sarcasm]
Looking at the Sandy Berger case in the US, where a former top Clinton aide stole and destroyed classified documents from the US national archives, presumably because the documents and their marginal notes were very revealing as to the lack of effective action that was taken against terrorism during the Clinton administration. Instead of doing hard time in Levensworth, he plea bargained a fine, an admission of guilt and a temporary revocation of his security clearance!
Mr Martin, as the president of the Quebec Caucus and Finance minister during the events being described, was either in this up to his neck, or so totally uninterested and clueless as to the operation of his caucus and his job as finance minister that he "never noticed" what was happening around him. Either interpretation speaks against his suitability for any electoral office or position of responsibility. In an ideal world, the Governor General should use her powers to dissolve parliament, and perhaps appoint a coalition caretaker government to watch things while the police investigate the parties involved and charges are laid.
Looking at the Sandy Berger case in the US, where a former top Clinton aide stole and destroyed classified documents from the US national archives, presumably because the documents and their marginal notes were very revealing as to the lack of effective action that was taken against terrorism during the Clinton administration. Instead of doing hard time in Levensworth, he plea bargained a fine, an admission of guilt and a temporary revocation of his security clearance!
Mr Martin, as the president of the Quebec Caucus and Finance minister during the events being described, was either in this up to his neck, or so totally uninterested and clueless as to the operation of his caucus and his job as finance minister that he "never noticed" what was happening around him. Either interpretation speaks against his suitability for any electoral office or position of responsibility. In an ideal world, the Governor General should use her powers to dissolve parliament, and perhaps appoint a coalition caretaker government to watch things while the police investigate the parties involved and charges are laid.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Was the money "dontated" to the Liberal Party or individuals within the Liberal party?
In other words into whose bank account did the money go? I seem to remember that it has been reported since the scandal broke that the Quebec riding was not doing well financially. Fact or fiction? If fact it would suggest that the party itself was not receiving the funds (in Quebec at least) and would indicate that the individuals themselves were pocketing the cash thus "exonerating" the Liberal Party "save for a few bad apples". Part of the Liberal defence so far has been the "few bad appples" line. Martin has reportedly already dealt with quite a few of the "few bad apples". Unless someone testifies to something Martin doesn't already know about I'm sure it will all be shown to add up to him being an outsider and everything being dealt with. What does that mean in the next election? My prediction is that the BQ and CPC will form a coalition.
In other words into whose bank account did the money go? I seem to remember that it has been reported since the scandal broke that the Quebec riding was not doing well financially. Fact or fiction? If fact it would suggest that the party itself was not receiving the funds (in Quebec at least) and would indicate that the individuals themselves were pocketing the cash thus "exonerating" the Liberal Party "save for a few bad apples". Part of the Liberal defence so far has been the "few bad appples" line. Martin has reportedly already dealt with quite a few of the "few bad apples". Unless someone testifies to something Martin doesn't already know about I'm sure it will all be shown to add up to him being an outsider and everything being dealt with. What does that mean in the next election? My prediction is that the BQ and CPC will form a coalition.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
For some reason I doubt the liberal minority will fall, even with an election. The problem as I see it, is that people, atleast out in Ontario still see Stephen Harper as scary. Not sure why but they still do, whenever the media talks about him getting elected, they say the electorate will only vote for him and hold their breath. I'm going to take a guess that the media will try to help the Liberals in any way they can.
- Reaction score
- 5,138
- Points
- 1,060
Andyboy,
It all goes to "Due Diligence". Paul Martin was in charge of the treasury. If he DIDN'T know what was happening, he should have, and taken action. If he DID know, he should have taken action. If he THOUGHT something was fishy, he should have checked. There is NO WAY, being as high up as he was, he didn't have some idea of what was going on. If he didn't, he's incompetent and shouldn't hold the office he does. If he did, so much the worse. He definately should not be leading the Government. He's stuck in a barrel. For the rest of the party to say "It's just a couple of bad apples, not all of us" is hollow. Plain and simple, if they don't know what's happening in their own party, they don't know what's happening in the country, and they ALL gotta go.
It all goes to "Due Diligence". Paul Martin was in charge of the treasury. If he DIDN'T know what was happening, he should have, and taken action. If he DID know, he should have taken action. If he THOUGHT something was fishy, he should have checked. There is NO WAY, being as high up as he was, he didn't have some idea of what was going on. If he didn't, he's incompetent and shouldn't hold the office he does. If he did, so much the worse. He definately should not be leading the Government. He's stuck in a barrel. For the rest of the party to say "It's just a couple of bad apples, not all of us" is hollow. Plain and simple, if they don't know what's happening in their own party, they don't know what's happening in the country, and they ALL gotta go.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Recceguy,
I think there are two explanations for the sponsorship scandal. Either the people who received the kickbacks pocketed the money themselves and are the proverbial "few bad apples". No one outside of this lot of bad apples was involved and it is a simple case of a few corrupt individuals. This is the story the Liberal Party is pushing. Could be true but the testimony this past couple of weeks doesn't seem to bear it out.
This past couple of weeks the testimony we have heard is that the money was going into Liberal Party accounts to fund the Liberal Party. Besides naming some pretty heavy weight Liberal Party members the implication was that this went right up to the top. Nothing has been shown to indicate that Martin was involved or even knew about any of it. Again possible but doesn't seem likely to me. In my limited experience things have a way of getting around and it seems implausible that he didn't know anything. While that doesn't sit well with you and I and a lot of others I think there are a lot of people who are quite willing to forgive and forget and are looking for an excuse to move on. I just don't sense the anger that this should be generating. I'm not sure how I would sense it but it just isn't palpable.
Now that he has accomplished the hard part the easy part is letting it all fall away because of something his predecessor did.
My own personal opinion is that Martin probably knew about what was going on but kept his nose clean and his mouth shut. One must be sure to remember one's life goal after all! When the story first broke with the auditor generals first report came out my reaction was that if Martin was an honorable and trustworthy leader he would have gone on national television and apologised to the Canadian people for what his party had done. Then he would have named names and had them arrested. And then held an election. THe Liberal party would have been decimated and would have to rebuild itself. Martin wouldn't have been Prime Minister and might even have lost the leadership. THe CPC and the BQ would have formed an alliance and gotten the country back on it's feet again and Martin could have gone down in history as a hero. Instead he is trying to pretend it was just one or two guys and that The Party is a great as ever. Oh well I guess now that he accomplished his goal of becoming Prime Minister he can take the easy way out and let someone else take over becasue of something his predecessor did. Oh well, Cretien goes down in history as the Little Thug from Shawinnigan and Martin disappears into history with a nice pension and a family shipping business. Not bad.
FOr me the best part has been watching the various parties scurrying and scrambling to distance themselves from The Party. Funny how the rats always know the ship is sinking. Take the CBC for example, they see the writing on the wall. If you watch the CBC lately you know this gov't is through. The rats have begun to leave the ship.
I think there are two explanations for the sponsorship scandal. Either the people who received the kickbacks pocketed the money themselves and are the proverbial "few bad apples". No one outside of this lot of bad apples was involved and it is a simple case of a few corrupt individuals. This is the story the Liberal Party is pushing. Could be true but the testimony this past couple of weeks doesn't seem to bear it out.
This past couple of weeks the testimony we have heard is that the money was going into Liberal Party accounts to fund the Liberal Party. Besides naming some pretty heavy weight Liberal Party members the implication was that this went right up to the top. Nothing has been shown to indicate that Martin was involved or even knew about any of it. Again possible but doesn't seem likely to me. In my limited experience things have a way of getting around and it seems implausible that he didn't know anything. While that doesn't sit well with you and I and a lot of others I think there are a lot of people who are quite willing to forgive and forget and are looking for an excuse to move on. I just don't sense the anger that this should be generating. I'm not sure how I would sense it but it just isn't palpable.
Now that he has accomplished the hard part the easy part is letting it all fall away because of something his predecessor did.
My own personal opinion is that Martin probably knew about what was going on but kept his nose clean and his mouth shut. One must be sure to remember one's life goal after all! When the story first broke with the auditor generals first report came out my reaction was that if Martin was an honorable and trustworthy leader he would have gone on national television and apologised to the Canadian people for what his party had done. Then he would have named names and had them arrested. And then held an election. THe Liberal party would have been decimated and would have to rebuild itself. Martin wouldn't have been Prime Minister and might even have lost the leadership. THe CPC and the BQ would have formed an alliance and gotten the country back on it's feet again and Martin could have gone down in history as a hero. Instead he is trying to pretend it was just one or two guys and that The Party is a great as ever. Oh well I guess now that he accomplished his goal of becoming Prime Minister he can take the easy way out and let someone else take over becasue of something his predecessor did. Oh well, Cretien goes down in history as the Little Thug from Shawinnigan and Martin disappears into history with a nice pension and a family shipping business. Not bad.
FOr me the best part has been watching the various parties scurrying and scrambling to distance themselves from The Party. Funny how the rats always know the ship is sinking. Take the CBC for example, they see the writing on the wall. If you watch the CBC lately you know this gov't is through. The rats have begun to leave the ship.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Andyboy said:
As a reality check (even though I despise the federal Liberal Party ...)
Your closing comment reminded me of the exodus from the Conservatives when Kim Campbell was PM ... which should only go to remind all of us that there are probably opportunists in every political party who would place party politics before "what's best for Canada" ...
Having said that, I also can't help but wonder whether the federal Liberals are only cozying up to the CF in a desperate attempt to curry some more votes ... ?
- Reaction score
- 33
- Points
- 560
Although a rational person would ask why the Liberals keep getting elected despite their proven track record of sitting back and doing nothing (please name one initiative since 1993 which did not involve retaining the Status Quo or padding someones pockets), the lack of true outrage really speaks to the problem: Canadians don't care.
Outrages like the Gun Registry, Billion dollar boondoggle, Adscam, and Shawinigate simply elicit a shrug and maybe a sigh. In the greater world, the UNs singular lack of success in preventing genocide in the Balkens, Rwanda, Somalia, the Sudan, or ongoing scandals like "Oil for food" in Iraq, "Sex for Peacekeepers" in the Congo or the lack of response to the Tsunami disaster (the coalition of the willing was on the ground in 24 hr, while the UN took almost a month just to get there) are also ignored when discussing the utility of the UN.
How soon before we see revelations of "Foundation scam", where the 7 billion (yeah, thats right, billion) tax dollars placed beyond the perview of Parliament and the Auditor General is revealed to be laundered back into the coffers of the Liberal party? The National Daycare plan is budgeted at 5 Billion dollars, any guess how much will vanish down the black hole?
Face it folks, we are the defenders of sheeple who don't care to step up to the plate and take action, which makes them willing victims whenever real predators like Liberal politicians or UN bureaucrats come calling. Its a good thing we live in a nation with long established democratic traditions, or the situation might degrade to resemble Argentina or Turkey up to the 1980's, when various Juntas ruled. (Imagine NDHQ running the nation). Sad prediction: people are so indifferent the Liberals will be reelected even if cheques made out to Paul Martin Jr and Jean Chretien are produced as evidence in the inquiry.
I don't really know what to suggest. Are there enough ex service members to form an effective nucleus to energize the opposition parties and take action from the municipal, provincial and federal levels to turn this ship around and release the potential of the nation, or should we just join the doctors and entrepreneurs and vote with our feet? Where are all the "can-do" people anymore?
Outrages like the Gun Registry, Billion dollar boondoggle, Adscam, and Shawinigate simply elicit a shrug and maybe a sigh. In the greater world, the UNs singular lack of success in preventing genocide in the Balkens, Rwanda, Somalia, the Sudan, or ongoing scandals like "Oil for food" in Iraq, "Sex for Peacekeepers" in the Congo or the lack of response to the Tsunami disaster (the coalition of the willing was on the ground in 24 hr, while the UN took almost a month just to get there) are also ignored when discussing the utility of the UN.
How soon before we see revelations of "Foundation scam", where the 7 billion (yeah, thats right, billion) tax dollars placed beyond the perview of Parliament and the Auditor General is revealed to be laundered back into the coffers of the Liberal party? The National Daycare plan is budgeted at 5 Billion dollars, any guess how much will vanish down the black hole?
Face it folks, we are the defenders of sheeple who don't care to step up to the plate and take action, which makes them willing victims whenever real predators like Liberal politicians or UN bureaucrats come calling. Its a good thing we live in a nation with long established democratic traditions, or the situation might degrade to resemble Argentina or Turkey up to the 1980's, when various Juntas ruled. (Imagine NDHQ running the nation
). Sad prediction: people are so indifferent the Liberals will be reelected even if cheques made out to Paul Martin Jr and Jean Chretien are produced as evidence in the inquiry.I don't really know what to suggest. Are there enough ex service members to form an effective nucleus to energize the opposition parties and take action from the municipal, provincial and federal levels to turn this ship around and release the potential of the nation, or should we just join the doctors and entrepreneurs and vote with our feet? Where are all the "can-do" people anymore?
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 230
This is indirectly related to Adscam, but I thought I would post it here rather then start a brand new topic. It's kinda long so I won't post it all here just the first half or so,, you can read the entire article by clicking here
Liberals' popularity plunges to 16-year low: poll
The Liberal Party has plunged to the lowest level of support from Canadians in the past 16 years, a new poll has found, putting Prime Minister Paul Martin's minority government in serious jeopardy.
The Ipsos-Reid poll, conducted for CTV and The Globe and Mail, puts Liberal support at 27 per cent, down 10 points from a mid-February poll. The previous modern low-water mark was in March 1989, when they recorded 29 per cent support under the leadership of John Turner.
The polling was conducted between April 8 and 10. The startling testimony of Jean Brault, a former advertising executive, was made public by the Gomery inquiry on April 7.
"It would appear the recent revelations of the Gomery Commission have strongly resonated with the Canadian public," said an Ipsos-Reid news release.
Here are the figures for all five major parties (February 15-17 results in brackets):
* Liberals: 27 per cent, -10 (37)
* Conservatives: 30 per cent, +4 (26)
* NDP: 19 per cent, +2 (17)
* Bloc Quebecois: 12 per cent, +2 (10)
* Greens: 7 per cent, 0 (7)
In Quebec, where the Gomery hearings are the object of intense public interest, the Bloc has 48 per cent support. The sovereigntist party holds a 30-point lead over the Liberals, who are at 18 per cent.
==================
Again, since it's long I just posted approx. half of it, read the full article here
Liberals' popularity plunges to 16-year low: poll
The Liberal Party has plunged to the lowest level of support from Canadians in the past 16 years, a new poll has found, putting Prime Minister Paul Martin's minority government in serious jeopardy.
The Ipsos-Reid poll, conducted for CTV and The Globe and Mail, puts Liberal support at 27 per cent, down 10 points from a mid-February poll. The previous modern low-water mark was in March 1989, when they recorded 29 per cent support under the leadership of John Turner.
The polling was conducted between April 8 and 10. The startling testimony of Jean Brault, a former advertising executive, was made public by the Gomery inquiry on April 7.
"It would appear the recent revelations of the Gomery Commission have strongly resonated with the Canadian public," said an Ipsos-Reid news release.
Here are the figures for all five major parties (February 15-17 results in brackets):
* Liberals: 27 per cent, -10 (37)
* Conservatives: 30 per cent, +4 (26)
* NDP: 19 per cent, +2 (17)
* Bloc Quebecois: 12 per cent, +2 (10)
* Greens: 7 per cent, 0 (7)
In Quebec, where the Gomery hearings are the object of intense public interest, the Bloc has 48 per cent support. The sovereigntist party holds a 30-point lead over the Liberals, who are at 18 per cent.
==================
Again, since it's long I just posted approx. half of it, read the full article here
D
dutchie
Guest
S_Baker said:
The Gomery Inquiry will eventually reveal what he knew, unless the Liberals shut it down prematurely like they did the Parlimentary hearing, and the Somalia Inquiry. I'll bet my morning donut that our esteemed PM knew a lot more than he is letting on. I can't think of a scenario where the President of the Quebec caucus, who's also the Finance Minister, doesn't know and condone the program and the embezzlement. It doesn't make sense that he wouldn't know.
Waiting for that to come out, and watching the PM twitch when speaking about the scandal, is like waiting for the US invasion of Iraq - everyone knew it was coming, and that it would be one hellava show, were just waiting for the first bomb to drop.
Our next PM will be Harper, and the Liberals will probably have to fight for the opposition spot with Layton and Duceppe. Ah, sweet justice!
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
TCBF said:I'm right here, Al.
Tom
And what good would you be to us, exactly? 5000 words or less, please.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Has anyone looked at the Alberta poll results in the article scm77 had?
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1113252718119_108661918/?hub=TopStories
Alberta: The Liberals (21 per cent, +8 points) continue to trail The Conservative Party (54 per cent, -3 points) by a large margin. The NDP (11 per cent, -6 points), and the Green Party (6 per cent, -6 points) are down somewhat.
I realise that Tory support is still more than twice the number of the Grits, but why the increase for the Grits? It doesn't seem logical to me.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1113252718119_108661918/?hub=TopStories
Alberta: The Liberals (21 per cent, +8 points) continue to trail The Conservative Party (54 per cent, -3 points) by a large margin. The NDP (11 per cent, -6 points), and the Green Party (6 per cent, -6 points) are down somewhat.
I realise that Tory support is still more than twice the number of the Grits, but why the increase for the Grits? It doesn't seem logical to me.
Jungle said:An eye for an eye...Sounds fair...
niice. lol. We need a new party that can take over what few good policies the Liberals have... but arn't quite so... conservative, as the conservative party.
Maybe a Center Party? With a nice Military per (
) at the head? lol.
