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Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

I don't know the S.O.P. in Nova Scotia.

I'm only familiar with the ASHE S.O.P. in one city, in another province.

Staging at an Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) until Emergency Task Force ( ETF ) arrived On Scene used to be the S.O.P.

Until Columbine.

Now it's Rescue Task Force ( RTF ). You don't wait for ETF.
This may exist in some big cities. It ain’t a thing outside of them that I’ve ever heard of.

Everywhere else, ambulances and fire stage. It’s just what they do. RCMP have a very small number of members trained up with some advanced TCCC stuff, but that’s not gonna go very far in saving a casualty who badly needs a trauma centre.

All that said, I have no idea what the actual fact set is for the situation in question. It’s just unrealistic to think that in most cases there will be some ninja medics swooping in to environments where cops still believe it’s necessary to have guns out. There will not be.
 
Given my wife's experience with the FitBit I bought her as a well meaning gift (she thinks I bought it to annoy her and it's never really worked as intended) I wouldn't trust it to prove life or death.

Similar experience with my wife. I’m not sure she would have relied on it to tell the time accurately at the end of its life (about 2 days after warranty, oddly).
 
In your SOP they discuss warm zones.

  • Hot Zone - Area where there is a known hazard or direct and immediate life threat (i.e., any uncontrolled area where an active shooter/bomber could directly engage an RTF). RTFs should not be deployed into hot zones.
  • Warm Zone - Area of indirect threat (i.e., an area where law enforcement has either cleared or isolated the threat to a level of minimal or mitigated risk). This area can be considered clear but not secure. The RTF will deploy in this area, with security, to treat and remove victims
  • Cold Zone - Area where there is little or no threat, due to geographic distance from the threat or the area has been secured by law enforcement (i.e.,casualty collection points, the area where emergency services may stage to triage, treat, and transport victims once removed from the warm zone).
 
Anyone who thinks all LEOs should charge headfirst into danger should rethink their reasoning. Not all LEOs have the same training, experience, and abilities.

And we’re no different in the CAF, despite unlimited liability - let’s be realistic here. Would a WASF hold its own against a dismounted Inf Coy? Platoon even? Not likely.

If there was an active shooter on a base, what does the training tell most people to do (serving members); charge headlong into the area, or secure in place?

Do we expect the same combat capabilities from a cook as we do an Infantry soldier?

Why would it be any different in policing? A good friend of mine is an ERT Tm Lead, his wife is also RCMP but Community Policing. They have totally different skills sets and expectations from their bosses. Sure, the basic serve and protect is there…just like UL is there for the HRA Private in Ottawa and the CSOR operator down the road from them.
 
Anyone who thinks all LEOs should charge headfirst into danger should rethink their reasoning. Not all LEOs have the same training, experience, and abilities.

And we’re no different in the CAF, despite unlimited liability - let’s be realistic here. Would a WASF hold its own against a dismounted Inf Coy? Platoon even? Not likely.
I'd expect that WASF to hold their positions as long as possible, even at the cost of their lives, unless ordered to withdraw. They don't have to defeat the enemy, they just need to give the rest of the team a chance to organize, or withdraw.
If there was an active shooter on a base, what does the training tell most people to do (serving members); charge headlong into the area, or secure in place?
If Cpl Bloggins the HRA was armed, I'd expect them to secure their location, and wait for coordinating instructions, not hide in a room with no windows. Police are armed, clerks tend to not be, you're making an apples to cream of wheat comparison.
Do we expect the same combat capabilities from a cook as we do an Infantry soldier?
Nope, but I expect the Cook to be proficient with their weapon, and fight as best they can as long as they can.
Why would it be any different in policing? A good friend of mine is an ERT Tm Lead, his wife is also RCMP but Community Policing. They have totally different skills sets and expectations from their bosses. Sure, the basic serve and protect is there…just like UL is there for the HRA Private in Ottawa and the CSOR operator down the road from them.
The difference is, your friend's wife is still an armed police officer. There is an expectation that armed police will protect the public, even if it means risking their own life.

Maybe the public has unrealistic expectations, but they exist...
 
I don't know the S.O.P. in Nova Scotia.

I'm only familiar with the ASHE S.O.P. in one city, in another province.

Staging at an Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) until Emergency Task Force ( ETF ) arrived On Scene used to be the S.O.P.

Until Columbine.

Now it's Rescue Task Force ( RTF ). You don't wait for ETF.
Did the members of your (large municipal EMS) receive RTF training? Although I've been gone for several years, when we did annual Initial Rapid Deployment (same thing - different name) training, EMS was never involved, nor have heard of anything similar. Like Booter, I doubt it is much of a thing with rural emergency services.

Edit: Pretty much similar to what Brihard said. Our tactical units have a pool of trained and equipped EMS members from a number of ambulance services around a lot of the province but it is a part-time as-needed call out.
 
I'd expect that WASF to hold their positions as long as possible, even at the cost of their lives, unless ordered to withdraw. They don't have to defeat the enemy, they just need to give the rest of the team a chance to organize, or withdraw.

The "at the cost of their lives" wouldn't take long. This is likely why WASF as it exists doesn't deploy to perform the task for ATFs, etc. It is a Secondary Duty; THAT is reality. "The rest of the team", when it comes to WASF, is more of the same people equally capable of defeating that same force.

If Cpl Bloggins the HRA was armed, I'd expect them to secure their location, and wait for coordinating instructions, not hide in a room with no windows. Police are armed, clerks tend to not be, you're making an apples to cream of wheat comparison.

You're not dealing with reality then. The comparison isn't in their "day to day battle rattle"; the comparison is "we don't expect the same thing from all CAF members". THAT is reality. So expecting the same thing from "all RCMP officers" is the same as expecting the same thing from "all CAF members". It's not an "apples to cream of wheat" comparison. I'm talking about and pointing to day to day reality in the CAF, and how it compares to the public and their expectations of 'all LEOs'.

* on the "not hide in rooms with no windows"; I'm not going to compromise FP TTPs. I'll just say "you'd be surprised".

Nope, but I expect the Cook to be proficient with their weapon, and fight as best they can as long as they can.

But that isn't what I am talking about. Simple version; "despite being CAF members, do we expect the same reaction and results from an Inf Cpl as we do a Cook Cpl?". Easy answer, for anyone, is "no". So...why would we expect the same from "all members of the RCMP"?

Proficient is a term used too loosely outside of the aircrew world in my experience. Qualified and current doesn't = proficient. We do not do enough "round downrange" to be proficient outside of Inf (maybe, not sure what they shoot annually now), MP/CP, SOF, etc. If you're working in a kitchen, hanger, etc...you might be qualified, you might be current but it is HIGHLY unlikely you are proficient.

The difference is, your friend's wife is still an armed police officer. There is an expectation that armed police will protect the public, even if it means risking their own life.

(Agreed to a point. I don't expect any LEO to enter a situation and just "risk their lives". 20 gunmen, 1 cruiser responds initially. Who expects the 1 or 2 LEOs to run blindly into that kill zone "because that's what we pay them for"? )

Does that include "this RCMP cruiser might be the suspect. I'll stop next to him and see"? (context of this thread)

OR...is there an expectation to make tactically sound decisions, despite how the uneducated public might think, by the LEOs team mates and superiors?

Does the RCMP itself expect those same 2 members to bring the same skill sets to any / all situations? Why would the public?

Maybe the public has unrealistic expectations, but they exist...

Maybe the public needs to educate themselves some then. This is old, but makes the point nonetheless.

Awards honour B.C. police for valour, meritorious service
 
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Did the members of your (large municipal EMS) receive RTF training? Although I've been gone for several years, when we did annual Initial Rapid Deployment (same thing - different name) training, EMS was never involved, nor have heard of anything similar. Like Booter, I doubt it is much of a thing with rural emergency services.

I've been retired for 13 years. I can call someone tomorrow and ask. Most training is online now.
Taking operational crews out of 9-1-1 service has never been common practice due to the negative impact it has on Response Times. Car counts are often at bare minimum.

Our policy was always pretty simple,

4. wait for police assistance if,
a. there is an active shooter scenario, or
b. there is direct evidence of ongoing violence;

5. if electing to delay service as per paragraph 4 above, immediately notify CACC/ACS;

Once the police arrive, if they are not already there, they are in charge of scene security.

Police decide if a scene is Hot, Warm or Cold.

Edit: Pretty much similar to what Brihard said. Our tactical units have a pool of trained and equipped EMS members from a number of ambulance services around a lot of the province but it is a part-time as-needed call out.

Our town has ETF paramedics on regular duty under the direction of the Gun Team sergeant and under the cover of the Gun Team itself.
They are experts.

RTF are just regular street crews. But, they get there "firstest with the mostest".


So if EMS won’t go into the hot zone while being escorted there is little to be done.

RTFs should not be deployed into hot zones.







 
Mistaken for mass killer, man recalls shot ‘like a sonic boom’ as RCMP fired at him

HALIFAX — David Westlake is an unbelievably lucky man who still wonders what saved him when two Mounties mistook him for a killer and opened fire.

On the morning of April 19, 2020, the emergency management coordinator was at the firehall in Onslow, N.S., as the fire chief was welcoming people evacuated from nearby Portapique, N.S., where a gunman had killed 13 people the night before.

At the time, the killer was still at large and his rampage wasn’t over. He would kill a total of 22 people before being shot by police later that day.

At 10:17 a.m., as Westlake was chatting with an RCMP officer parked in front of the building, he watched in disbelief as a car screeched to a halt about 80 metres away and two men emerged with rifles. As both took aim at him, he made a dash for the firehall.

"I remember a shot that sounded like a sonic boom and then another one that was really loud, and I'm moving at this time," Westlake told a public inquiry investigating the worst mass shooting in modern Canadian history.

The two shooters were RCMP officers who mistakenly assumed Westlake was the killer, mainly because he was wearing a yellow-and-orange reflective vest that matched the police description of what the suspect was wearing.

Westlake's dramatic account of what happened that day was given to an inquiry investigator on June 15, 2021. The release Monday of a document that includes excerpts from that interview marks the first time the public has heard Westlake's version of events.

"Do not ask me what deity had their hand on my shoulder that day and made sure it wasn't my time," Westlake said in the interview.

The inquiry document also highlights the confusion that RCMP officers faced as they pursued the killer for more than 100 kilometres. Two Mounties fatally shot him at a gas station north of Halifax at 11:26 a.m.

As for Westlake, he said he still couldn't believe he escaped with his life, though the close call had not hurt his sense of humour.

"I was just a fat guy in the wrong place at the wrong time wearing a vest," he told the inquiry investigator. "I've never had malice to the two individuals that pulled the trigger. I want to meet them. I want to ask them how they missed, because I can't hide behind telephone poles."

Still, the document raises awkward questions for the RCMP, which has said little about the almost-lethal blunder.

Just before Const. Terry Brown and Const. Dave Melanson showed up in Onslow, Westlake was standing in the front lot talking to RCMP Const. Dave Gagnon, who was behind the wheel of a marked cruiser, a vehicle almost identical to the getaway car being used by the killer.

Both Brown and Melanson told inquiry investigators they did not see Gagnon in the car.

Before the two officers jumped out of their unmarked Nissan Altima, Melanson tried several times to use a police radio to report what they were seeing. But instead of getting a clear signal to broadcast, Melanson said the radio "bonged," which meant that the frequency had been jammed by too many users.

The Serious Incident Response Team, Nova Scotia's police watchdog agency, released a report in March 2021 that cleared both officers of any wrongdoing. It concluded the officers had reasonable grounds to believe they had the killer in their sights, and that they discharged their weapons "to prevent further deaths or serious injuries." The independent agency also drew attention to the jammed radios.

Melanson said he, like Brown, believed the man in the reflective vest was the killer. "I’ve got my carbine on the guy and I'm yelling to him, 'Show me your hands!'" Brown told the inquiry's investigators last month.

"And he's looking at me and then he ducks behind the car, and I was sure he was getting a gun …. And I thought he was going to kill us. I thought he was going to kill others .... And he started running."

Westlake, however, told investigators he did not hear anyone say, "Show me your hands." He said the only thing he heard, aside from gunshots, was someone saying, “Get down!”

As well, eight people living near the firehall told investigators about what they saw that day, and none of them reported hearing anyone say, "Show your hands!"

In all, investigators found Brown fired four rounds at Westlake, and Melanson fired once. Two rounds pierced one of the station's garage doors and damaged a fire truck inside. A third round hit a roadside sign and another hit the side of the firehall. The fifth round hit a stone monument near the door that Westlake used to escape.

As for Gagnon — the constable in the cruiser — the document says he tried to use his radio to alert the other two officers about his identity, saying, “You guys are pointing your guns at me.” But the transcript from the broadcasts that day suggest the transmission did not get through.

All that was recorded was Gagnon saying: “You got that — Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!” and “Who are you shooting at? It’s Gagnon!”

When the shooting stopped, Gagnon emerged from his vehicle with his hands up. After a brief exchange with the two other officers, he and Melanson went inside the station, where Westlake told them no one had been injured.

Neither Brown nor Melanson checked on the others inside the firehall, who included fire Chief Greg Muise, Deputy Chief Darrell Currie and evacuee Richard Ellison, whose son Corrie had been murdered in Portapique.

Westlake would later recall that he had spotted an RCMP cruiser with a black push-bar on the front driving past the firehall at 10:07 a.m. That vehicle matched the description of the killer’s vehicle, but the RCMP did not release that information to the public until they sent a tweet at 10:17 a.m. — roughly the same time the unmarked car arrived at the firehall.

There’s no indication that Gagnon saw the suspect's car.
 
Neither Brown nor Melanson checked on the others inside the firehall, who included fire Chief Greg Muise, Deputy Chief Darrell Currie and evacuee Richard Ellison, whose son Corrie had been murdered in Portapique.

Nothing like shooting into a building and not checking if they hit anyone. At least no one was left to die this time.


As well, eight people living near the firehall told investigators about what they saw that day, and none of them reported hearing anyone say, "Show your hands!"

Sounds like someone needs some remedial training.
 
Mistaken for mass killer, man recalls shot ‘like a sonic boom’ as RCMP fired at him

HALIFAX — David Westlake is an unbelievably lucky man who still wonders what saved him when two Mounties mistook him for a killer and opened fire.

On the morning of April 19, 2020, the emergency management coordinator was at the firehall in Onslow, N.S., as the fire chief was welcoming people evacuated from nearby Portapique, N.S., where a gunman had killed 13 people the night before.

At the time, the killer was still at large and his rampage wasn’t over. He would kill a total of 22 people before being shot by police later that day.

At 10:17 a.m., as Westlake was chatting with an RCMP officer parked in front of the building, he watched in disbelief as a car screeched to a halt about 80 metres away and two men emerged with rifles. As both took aim at him, he made a dash for the firehall.

"I remember a shot that sounded like a sonic boom and then another one that was really loud, and I'm moving at this time," Westlake told a public inquiry investigating the worst mass shooting in modern Canadian history.

The two shooters were RCMP officers who mistakenly assumed Westlake was the killer, mainly because he was wearing a yellow-and-orange reflective vest that matched the police description of what the suspect was wearing.

Westlake's dramatic account of what happened that day was given to an inquiry investigator on June 15, 2021. The release Monday of a document that includes excerpts from that interview marks the first time the public has heard Westlake's version of events.

"Do not ask me what deity had their hand on my shoulder that day and made sure it wasn't my time," Westlake said in the interview.

The inquiry document also highlights the confusion that RCMP officers faced as they pursued the killer for more than 100 kilometres. Two Mounties fatally shot him at a gas station north of Halifax at 11:26 a.m.

As for Westlake, he said he still couldn't believe he escaped with his life, though the close call had not hurt his sense of humour.

"I was just a fat guy in the wrong place at the wrong time wearing a vest," he told the inquiry investigator. "I've never had malice to the two individuals that pulled the trigger. I want to meet them. I want to ask them how they missed, because I can't hide behind telephone poles."

Still, the document raises awkward questions for the RCMP, which has said little about the almost-lethal blunder.

Just before Const. Terry Brown and Const. Dave Melanson showed up in Onslow, Westlake was standing in the front lot talking to RCMP Const. Dave Gagnon, who was behind the wheel of a marked cruiser, a vehicle almost identical to the getaway car being used by the killer.

Both Brown and Melanson told inquiry investigators they did not see Gagnon in the car.

Before the two officers jumped out of their unmarked Nissan Altima, Melanson tried several times to use a police radio to report what they were seeing. But instead of getting a clear signal to broadcast, Melanson said the radio "bonged," which meant that the frequency had been jammed by too many users.

The Serious Incident Response Team, Nova Scotia's police watchdog agency, released a report in March 2021 that cleared both officers of any wrongdoing. It concluded the officers had reasonable grounds to believe they had the killer in their sights, and that they discharged their weapons "to prevent further deaths or serious injuries." The independent agency also drew attention to the jammed radios.

Melanson said he, like Brown, believed the man in the reflective vest was the killer. "I’ve got my carbine on the guy and I'm yelling to him, 'Show me your hands!'" Brown told the inquiry's investigators last month.

"And he's looking at me and then he ducks behind the car, and I was sure he was getting a gun …. And I thought he was going to kill us. I thought he was going to kill others .... And he started running."

Westlake, however, told investigators he did not hear anyone say, "Show me your hands." He said the only thing he heard, aside from gunshots, was someone saying, “Get down!”

As well, eight people living near the firehall told investigators about what they saw that day, and none of them reported hearing anyone say, "Show your hands!"

In all, investigators found Brown fired four rounds at Westlake, and Melanson fired once. Two rounds pierced one of the station's garage doors and damaged a fire truck inside. A third round hit a roadside sign and another hit the side of the firehall. The fifth round hit a stone monument near the door that Westlake used to escape.

As for Gagnon — the constable in the cruiser — the document says he tried to use his radio to alert the other two officers about his identity, saying, “You guys are pointing your guns at me.” But the transcript from the broadcasts that day suggest the transmission did not get through.

All that was recorded was Gagnon saying: “You got that — Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!” and “Who are you shooting at? It’s Gagnon!”

When the shooting stopped, Gagnon emerged from his vehicle with his hands up. After a brief exchange with the two other officers, he and Melanson went inside the station, where Westlake told them no one had been injured.

Neither Brown nor Melanson checked on the others inside the firehall, who included fire Chief Greg Muise, Deputy Chief Darrell Currie and evacuee Richard Ellison, whose son Corrie had been murdered in Portapique.

Westlake would later recall that he had spotted an RCMP cruiser with a black push-bar on the front driving past the firehall at 10:07 a.m. That vehicle matched the description of the killer’s vehicle, but the RCMP did not release that information to the public until they sent a tweet at 10:17 a.m. — roughly the same time the unmarked car arrived at the firehall.

There’s no indication that Gagnon saw the suspect's car.

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Benny Hill What GIF
 
I don’t have all the info of course but I am scratching my head a little on the SiRT finding of “there was no wrong doing”.
 
Nothing like shooting into a building and not checking if they hit anyone. At least no one was left to die this time.




Sounds like someone needs some remedial training.
I mean the last course that I did with a lot of shooting, You needed to account for every round with a 3 strikes you're out policy with no room for discretion on that.

Badger Checks are also standard for anything you engage. Sounds like the RCMP might need to have a look at their Carbine training for patrol officers 🤔
 
I suppose it is. Unless it’s such a marked departure that it moves into the realm of negligence- provincial oversight bodies aren’t interested and will suggest it falls outside their mandate when it fails to be “criminal” behaviour…and just incompetence for example

I actually dealt with that last week. It was an incredibly bad look for the agency, and behaviour that was totally unacceptable- but the oversight agency said it was no criminal wrong doing.
 
I mean the last course that I did with a lot of shooting, You needed to account for every round with a 3 strikes you're out policy with no room for discretion on that.

Badger Checks are also standard for anything you engage. Sounds like the RCMP might need to have a look at their Carbine training for patrol officers 🤔
This is a totally normal expectation of their training (the standards you’re describing). Real life response deviates hard from the syllabus though.

The rcmp patrol carbine course far exceeds the standards of every municipal carbine course I’m familiar with in Canada. Which is a few- but not exhaustive.

Why this particular shoot was a circus- I have no idea 🤷‍♀️

I’m going to, in a not excusing way, suggest that two guys in the dark spontaneously hunting a guy killing people dressed like a cop- who started their shift thinking they would catch up on paperwork and get a booster juice- may have some lag between their decision making and their training banks.

Human being stuff when they’re crushed under the situation.

That said- this still wouldn’t be acceptable, it’s a potential explanation not an excuse
 
This is a totally normal expectation of their training (the standards you’re describing). Real life response deviates hard from the syllabus though.

The rcmp patrol carbine course far exceeds the standards of every municipal carbine course I’m familiar with in Canada. Which is a few- but not exhaustive.

Why this particular shoot was a circus- I have no idea 🤷‍♀️
So I guess my next issue would be were they recert'ed or did they do the course years ago and never practice again after that?

Unrelated to this is my pet peeve with our BS gun laws that don't allow for people like you or I to regularly practice with our tools on our own time.
 
So I guess my next issue would be were they recert'ed or did they do the course years ago and never practice again after that?

Unrelated to this is my pet peeve with our BS gun laws that don't allow for people like you or I to regularly practice with our tools on our own time.
Atlantic region is a bit of a different mindset. I noted that in the response there were more than a few members who weren’t carbine trained.

There is alot of “give and take”
When it comes to their one day carbine recerts- “just a few weeks”. “Maybe next month” “risk it out”

Without speaking as an authority, and just anecdotally with my experience with the region- I would suspect a lot of the new members were trained from depot and some people supervising weren’t current or trained.

I’ll be curious to see if they touch on that in the inquiry
 
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