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A Columbine Father Speaks Out

First one I clicked said it all in the first two paragraphs......
Canada's crime rate has dropped 12 per cent from a decade ago, according to a new report, with Ontario recording the lowest rate in the country.
But despite the drop in the total violent crime rate, the national homicide rate increased 12 per cent, Statistics Canada says
.


.....because, at least so far, its hard to get a 'free pass' for murder. 

I "insult you" because this is several threads now where you put up a bunch of 'googled' links and play like you know stuff from that field.
Hey, I could play that game in any of the equipment threads if I so choosed, but guess what, I like to stick to things that I have experienced/ do experience first hand.......like any silly suggestion crime rates are going down.
 
"You can play with stats all day, its not gonna do much since they are inconsistent."

Then, why did you use them to sustain your argument? Sounds like you are talking from both side of your mouth.

And I do believe you mean "moot", not "mute".

 
I "insult you" because this is several threads now where you put up a bunch of 'googled' links and play like you know stuff from that field.

Well provide evidence to the contrary. I simply research what I can, I don't play it like I know stuff from the field which is why I provide links to my sources of information. On blueline.ca their was a similar debate however I can't recall a single police officer calling for CCW. Strangely enough the same tone hasn't been taken with a poster who said people needed guns for protection against the police, which I consider more irrational than supporting the science behind climate change or not supporting CCW.

Hey, I could play that game in any of the equipment threads if I so choosed, but guess what, I like to stick to things that I have experienced/ do experience first hand.......like any silly suggestion crime rates are going down.

Take it up with Statistics Canada, they are the ones who came up with the silly suggestion that crime rates are going down based on the information they compiled from Law Enforcement in Canada. As for you insulting me, thats a poor attitude to take simply because you disagree with another persons views. If you would like to PM me and tell me how Statistics Canada is lying to Canadian's and providing false information on the crime rate. If your gonna call somebody stupid for saying what the statistics are showing [yet somehow owning a gun to protect yourself from the police isn't stupid] then by all means tell me how stats are flawed, even though that information comes from the police. Do I have to be a scientist to have an opinion on the envrionment, a criminologist to have an opinion on gun control, or an economist to have an opinion on taxes?

"You can play with stats all day, its not gonna do much since they are inconsistent."

Then, why did you use them to sustain your argument? Sounds like you are talking from both side of your mouth.

I simply stated that according to Statistics Canada the crime rate has been dropping, if you'd like to dispute that then by all means show me a source to the contrary. The stats were debunked on a thread in a different forum which was having the same discussion, I supported that argument since it came from a firearms instructor for law enforcement, and he was able to show his position without insulting anyone else.

Then, why did you use them to sustain your argument? Sounds like you are talking from both side of your mouth.

Because he disagreed with the statement about the stats showing the crime rate has been dropping.

And I do believe you mean "moot", not "mute".

Either will work, we'll never see CCW in Canada thankfully because nobody wants to live in the kind of society. We aren't going to see a debate on CCW, nor will we ever see one as very few politician's would ever support such a disasterous position. However thank you on correcting my use of vocabulary if it was innappropriate.
 
Sigs Guy said:
Well provide evidence to the contrary.

Ho hum,

http://www.fradical.com/Violent_crime_statistics_Canada.htm

The violent crime rate in Canada has gone down slightly in recent years from a peak in the early 1990s.  For instance, in the year 2004, the violent crime rate fell 2%, making it 10% lower than a decade earlier.  However, it was still 35% higher than 20 years ago (Statistics Canada, The Daily, July 21, 2005).   
For 2005, Statistics Canada reported that the overall violent crime rate was unchanged, while noting increases in crimes such as homicide, attempted murder, serious assaults and robbery.  The homicide rate increased 4% to the highest level in almost a decade. (Statistics Canada, The Daily, July 20, 2006)

  Despite decreases in both the proportion of teens aged 15 to 19 and crime rates in the 1990s, overall rates of violent crime are still three times higher than they were in the 1960s, and rates of property crime are twice as high." (Canadian Council on Social Development, Crime Prevention Through Social Development)


However, I wouldn't just throw this up and say "see"[ unlike some ;)].................its just statistics, and statistics mean SFA in the real world.

 
So then you agree that they have been going down?

You should have specified you meant the crime rates from the 1960's, I wasn't even alive back then.

However, I wouldn't just throw this up and say "see"[ unlike some ].................its just statistics, and statistics mean SFA in the real world.

So saying that having a gun for protection against the police is alright, saying that recent data shows the crime rate has gone down is a definite no. This is pretty absurd, so you agree that the statistics have shown the crime rate has gone down in recent years, yet somehow that is the stupidest thing you've ever heard. How are we to measure the rate of crime countrywide without statistics?

I'm not bashing your job, and I do have great respect for corrections personnel based on how hard their job is and what they have to deal with on a day to day basis. I'd actually be interested in hearing your experiences, but it doesn't mean much when looking at the entire country with regards to the rate of crime. I'm taking a guess that you, and I wouldn't be surprised if many others consider me a left wing eco-fascist who wants to destroy this country, but my gripe on here is with the notion that one needs a gun to protect themselves from criminals and apparently protect themselves from the police in order to be safe. If you want my views on what we should do on matters of criminal justice then I would be more then happy to give them to you. However you don't have to go out of your way to insult someone simply because of a statement which was misinterpreted, it's also somewhat asinine to bash someone because they decide to cite where they get their information from. One might not need to cite information when everyone else is in full agreement which is the current state of a seperate thread, but when actually engaging in a debate it's expected that one would at the very least be able to cite their sources of information. I have corrected myself before when I have been mistaken, and I'll do it again.

*A correction on my previous post stating the crime rate has been going down for the past two decades.
 
Sigs Guy said:
How are we to measure the rate of crime countrywide without statistics?

You don't,......you ask those that have a direct vested interest in the subject. If I want to know how good the isssued tac vest is do I go to the DND trials website, I think not,.....I go ask those who have BTDT [or are doing it]with it and other products.

....and I sure don't hand out a bunch of 'googled' links and say " you' re wrong" HitorMiss, according to this link you wouldn't have been hurt had you just.... ::)

..and I hate guns also.

Quote,
"overall rates of violent crime are still three times higher than they were in the 1960s, and rates of property crime are twice as high."

Just a question, since I don't know/don't care about guns, I am curious when the Govt. really started nosing around into the gun control thing,........wouldn't have been around the Sixties would it?
Just askin'.......

 
Yea, it will soon be assimilated to the 'gun control' superthread along with thousands of other posts that solved nothing.
 
Sigs Guy said:
...
You should have specified you meant the crime rates from the 1960's, I wasn't even alive back then.
...

This is (generally) an interesting debate - which, aside from some earlier comments, I have stayed out of.

However - Sigs Guy - the quote above is, to say the least, outlandish.  I wasn't alive in the forties, either - does that make statistics regarding casualty rates in WWII irrelevant?

You're doing alright, Sigs Guy - against some pretty tough opposition (you haven't changed my mind, and you're unlikely to - as has been posted by others, it's damned near impossible to change the mind of someone who is "entrenched"), and you make some good points - try not sully their effectiveness with absurd statements like the above.

Game on.


Roy

 
Funny thing is Roy, I am closer to his position than yours. I think weapons should be registered, with courses/ physiclogical testing required, with intense penalties for those who screw-up, but what I disagree with is his absurd 'straw men' arguments.

Stakeholders
Statistics Canada has a wide range of stakeholders. These are groups that we depend on to supply data and share expertise as well as those that benefit from the information we produce.


If Mr. Harper drops gun control/ registry completely, and remains in office for another 8 years, I will pretty much guarantee you "StatsCan" will be putting out *cough* stats that will say violent crime has gone down. Of course, this is whether it has or not since who would they want to "benefit" most from those stats.......the guy holding the purse strings maybe?


I've been saying for years, "I have to register my dog/cat/car, why shouldn't a gun be registered too?"
So, "Sigs Guy", maybe try a different approach than using stats from a field you haven't been in?
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Funny thing is Roy, I am closer to his position than yours. I think weapons should be registered, with courses/ physiclogical testing required, with intense penalties for those who screw-up, but what I disagree with is his absurd 'straw men' arguments.

I know (I disagree with BOTH of you), and I'm finding the irony of that kind of fun.

I just think the young fella' is struggling along kind of manfully - and deserved some encouragement.  YOU (not BEING a "young fella"  :o) don't need my public encouragement - you're doing fine, and you know it.


Roy
 
My issue on the firearms side is why given the increase in Firearms laws in Canada - is then the Murder and violent crime rate up.  The fact that little Timmy had his icecream not stolen this year really does not concern me.
  Some are trying to draw a parallel with greater gun control measures and less (violent) crime - it simply is not so.
Handguns and Select Fire firearms where restricted in 1934.
In 1979 the FAC system came into place and people who wished to buy firearms had to acquire one, at the same time they prohibited new owners from buying select fire firearms.  (Too this day the only legal select fire weapon used in a crime was by a deranged police officer).
In 1992 magazine control laws where implemented and several fireams where banned by name and the AR15 rifle was restricted by name (conviently ALL these actions mirrored actions taken in California the preceding year).
In 1994 short barrel (105mm pistols) and .25 and .32 pistols where prohibited (grandfathered) by name -- a ruling which then later was admented to certain firearms with saving provisions due to them being involved in Olympic Pistol events.
In 2005 the gov't then arbitrarily decided that they would no longer allow owners of grandfathered prohibited firearms (except grandfathered pistols) to take them to registered ranges.
As well recent politicians have made a point that if elected they would seek a handgun ban.

All this despite the statistics by the RCMP that the registered firearms where used in few criminal events.

Now as a gun owner and one who has additionally been certified by 4 different gov't entities to carry a firearm professionally [and to teach the safe usage therof] -- I dont see the cause and effect to the argument for gun control.  The why is simply because criminals who want guns will find a way to get them.  Thus I find that the majority who seek greater gun control proceed this way for two reasons: Fear and Ignorance.

A firearm is an inanimate object  - it has no will or desires.  The issue is of people.  Since I would hazard a guess that my training, and experiences with firearms are likley greater than 98% of the firearm using professional in Canada, I fail to see why I as a Canadian citizen cannot then carry a firearm with me?
  Either people trust in my judgement or they do not.  If they do not I should likley not them be allowed access to firearms and explosives, armoured vehicles and other items I could conspire to use criminally while at work (well okay the Iraqi gov't and US Gov't give them that authority these days - but the point is there).

Secindly since we are a society of equals - and a society that exists on the presumption of innocence, then why should a civlian with the equivalent (or greater) skill and training to the average law enforcement member in Canada, not be able to carry a firearm?

I can legally carry a firearm (and do so) in some US states -- I've never shot anyone in the US.  But I know that if I enter a situation that requires me to act in a way to defend myself or others - that I have not just the skill and judgement - but the tool to do so as well.

That said I do dial 911 - and despite being armed in a situation in Canada, I withdrew further into my home and dialled 911 and waited for the Police to come.  Had I not been armed (and announced it) I am not sure what would have happened.  (the firearm in question was a legally owned semi auto only MP-5 BTW - since sold to a Regina Policeman).  In Ottawa in the early 90's I ran away (to phone the Police) when I attempted to interupt a sexual assault - and the second man attacked me with a knife.  If I had been armed at the time, it would have been a much shorter attack on the woman.


I view firearms ownership as a right and responsibility of a free society -- and none of my experiences todate have altered that -- in fact they have reinforced that viewpoint in cement.
 



 
 
While firearms are not responsible for all violent crime, it is a factor. The United States is not safer despite the large proportion of firearms per capita, and showing statistics to prove that mores guns mean less crimes is moot as anyone on the anti-gun side could show the same statistics for New York City, etc.

Now as a gun owner and one who has additionally been certified by 4 different gov't entities to carry a firearm professionally [and to teach the safe usage therof] -- I dont see the cause and effect to the argument for gun control.  The why is simply because criminals who want guns will find a way to get them.  Thus I find that the majority who seek greater gun control proceed this way for two reasons: Fear and Ignorance.

Very few societies in the western world support CCW, and I think the only time that it might be warranted is if a person's life has been directly threatened. More firearms floating around does not make a society safer, and as has been pointed out you would have to factor in domestic violence as well when dealing with firearms.

A firearm is an inanimate object  - it has no will or desires.  The issue is of people.  Since I would hazard a guess that my training, and experiences with firearms are likley greater than 98% of the firearm using professional in Canada, I fail to see why I as a Canadian citizen cannot then carry a firearm with me?

Because their isn't really a point to it, I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of police officers don't even feel the need to carry a firearm while off duty. I could maybe see it in a predominantly rural area, but in an urban area their really isn't any point to it. Sometimes good common sense is the best course of action if your find yourself in a predicament.

Secindly since we are a society of equals - and a society that exists on the presumption of innocence, then why should a civlian with the equivalent (or greater) skill and training to the average law enforcement member in Canada, not be able to carry a firearm?

Because a civilian is not given the same duties and responsibilities as Law Enforcement and the Military in Canada. Their is one nation that I know of which has an assault rifle in many homes and that is Switzerland, however they don't give out CCW freely and have restrictions on firearms ownership, not to mention the fact that in order to have an assault rifle one must be a member of the reserves. I'd actually favor a system similar to the Swiss, but it'll never fly in this country, and I doubt alot of people would be ready to do 300 days of military training.

I can legally carry a firearm (and do so) in some US states -- I've never shot anyone in the US.  But I know that if I enter a situation that requires me to act in a way to defend myself or others - that I have not just the skill and judgement - but the tool to do so as well.

The fact that the US would so freely allow a foreigner [I'm assuming you're a Canadian citizen] to carry a firearm into their nation shows how inept their gun policy is. That one can so easily get access to a firearm is a symptom of their problems, they seem to have no control over the flow of firearms. Some people have argued that people in schools should carry guns, but when I think about some of the stupidity that went on while I went to high school I shudder at the notion of people carrying guns around. Most people in Canada just don't see the need for everyone to carry around firearms, and I'm sure a large proportion of the LE community feels the same way.

That said I do dial 911 - and despite being armed in a situation in Canada, I withdrew further into my home and dialled 911 and waited for the Police to come.  Had I not been armed (and announced it) I am not sure what would have happened.  (the firearm in question was a legally owned semi auto only MP-5 BTW - since sold to a Regina Policeman).   In Ottawa in the early 90's I ran away (to phone the Police) when I attempted to interupt a sexual assault - and the second man attacked me with a knife.  If I had been armed at the time, it would have been a much shorter attack on the woman.

That largely depends, I can see how that situation could have gone downhill fast even with a firearm in the equation, as well I'd imagine that if firearms were easily accessable more criminals would have guns as well. It's hard to find out the outcome of each individual situation. However when I was sitting in on a presentation done by EPS on sex crimes they never once supported anyone arming themselves with a firearm to prevent rape. Whether a firearm can prevent rape or not, that issue is complex since one has to take in all of the variables. My biggest issue with the need for a firearm to protect a home from an intruder is that it doesn't take into account the possibility of a home where domestic violence is prevalent, or a member of the home becoming suicidal, mentally ill, a criminal, etc.

I view firearms ownership as a right and responsibility of a free society -- and none of my experiences todate have altered that -- in fact they have reinforced that viewpoint in cement.

That's an interesting argument, I read an article in Harpers [I'll try to find the article] making that point about firearms being a necessity for democracy. The point in the Harpers article was that a firearm should only be seen as a last resort in fighting any tyranny. However even in that case Australia, Great Britian, Japan, and New Zealand, are all fully functioning democracies despite gun control.

My position is this, if you want to buy a hunting rifle, shotgun, or are a collector of guns, then you should be allowed to own firearms. However while saying that if you want to buy a firearm you should have to do a course, register them with the local police service, have no criminal record [if you have one a pardon must be granted], and have no history of mental illness, the same background check should be done on members of your immediate family. If charged with a firearms offence you should immediatly have each and every weapon taken away. My position is one of regulation, keep the firearms in the country regulated so we don't have a proliferation of firearms with no control over who can get one, firearms ownership should be a priviledge not a right. At the same time the country should step up efforts at the border to prevent illegal firearms from entering Canada.

With reference to my last point kudos to the CBSA for the seizures of firearms at the border.

I don't blame only firearms for all the crimes in Canada, that would be inept of me. I think that McGuinty and Miller are just trying to score political points, and banning all handguns won't do a thing as long as firearms are coming across the border illegally.
 
You are aware that Canada has a higher per capita ratio of firearms than the US are you not?

You've failed Canadian civics if you be believe that difference between the civilian and the Law Enforcement community. 

In reading the rest of what you've written - I'm just going to add you to my "radio interference: Ignore" pile as you seem to have neither the moral compass to make a correct choice nor the experience base to guide a choice if you had decided to make one -- you truly are one of the sheep, and I feel sorry your in uniform.



 
You are aware that Canada has a higher per capita ratio of firearms than the US are you not?

Yes, yet we have fewer gun deaths than the US, and yet at the same time have "strict" gun control laws.

You've failed Canadian civics if you be believe that difference between the civilian and the Law Enforcement community. 

Not really, as a civilian you have to act as any other civilian would. I remember receiving a presentation from communication's at EPS and they were talking about an accident where a tanker truck had flipped on the highway, now despite the civies best intention's they got up on the tanker trying to save the trucker. But as I'm sure most emergency response personnel will tell you, they don't want to go there and find 10 extra bodies they have to deal with since they can usually show up within enough time. 

I was not aware that a civilian had the exact same duties as a police officer or a member of the military, if that's the case one would think they would be given a gun to carry around with them all the time. Either way if your going to tell a person they 'failed' Canadian civics please be more specific.

In reading the rest of what you've written - I'm just going to add you to my "radio interference: Ignore" pile as you seem to have neither the moral compass to make a correct choice nor the experience base to guide a choice if you had decided to make one -- you truly are one of the sheep, and I feel sorry your in uniform.

Yeah, I base all of my opinion's on people in uniform based on whether or not they takes the same political stance as me as well. ::)

As for not having the "moral compass", get a grip, Bruce Monkhouse himself agreed for the most part with my position does that mean you feel sorry that he has worn the uniform?

Being one of the sheep, once again get over yourself, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are one of the sheep. I've met people who vote Conservative, Liberal, New Democrat, etc. and don't really bash them for having different views. In fact the people in the military who vote for a party other than the Conservatives can't really be called sheep. I found another debate on blueline on the same topic, and the vast majority of police officers were against CCW, do they also not have the "experience" that you do?

However I'd suggest you refrain from an innane post simply because you can't come up with anything better to respond with, what is your problem with my position of what proper gun policy should be?
 
Sigs Guy said:
...

I was not aware that a civilian had the exact same duties as a police officer or a member of the military, if that's the case one would think they would be given a gun to carry around with them all the time. Either way if your going to tell a person they 'failed' Canadian civics please be more specific.
...

Sigs Guy - Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles


SIR ROBERT PEEL'S NINE PRINCIPLES

    1 The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

    2 The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.

    3 Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

    4 The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

    5 Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

    6 Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.

    7 Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

    8 Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

    9 The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

I draw your attention to #7.
 
Then it's once again very odd that the police are not demanding that every citizen be given a glock. I don't believe Peel was making reference to every civilian carrying around a gun and shooting at anything that looks, feels, or smells remotely threatning. If you think otherwise you should write a letter to your local police service telling them how they are failing the public. As well I'm amazed that police would require one to go to police college/depot/academy, if any civilian walking down the street can do a police officers job.

I am more than aware of Peel's nine principles, which strangely enough do not include an armed citizen, they don't even demand an armed police.

If you want to carry a gun at all times in the public eye then go ahead and see how the general public and the police respond, and be sure to mention Peel if confronted by the police.
 
Sigs Guy said:
I don't believe Peel was making reference to every civilian carrying around a gun and shooting at anything that looks, feels, or smells remotely threatning. job.

..and then, just like Roy pointed out earlier, you ruin any type of convincing you might have had with something just a little beyond stupid.

I agree with you to the point of registering, I already know that the people who wish to do evil with firearms have them and they are not registered/controlled, so what is wrong with tightly regulated personal being issued a licence to have one to?
 
Sigs Guy:

As I said earlier in this thread - you're doin' alright.  You've made me sit back and do some research (and reexamine some long held beliefs).  But you've GOT to stop being hyperbolic - it (being hyperbolic) is a tendency I share with you, and it's a real pain to get under control.

CSA 105 has given you some excellent advice, I suggest you consider it.

Now, to get back to the debate.

I think you've got it backwards.  As I read Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles (specifically #7), the PUBLIC are not expected to be "amateur police", the POLICE are expected to "Professional Members of the Public", paid to do what ALL citizens are expected to do, on an unpaid, when required basis.

In other words, and in MY opinion, Sir Robert expected that the citizenry would police themselves as required; understanding that not all citizens could devote the time and effort required, he created a couple of Police Services to do it on their behalf, on a full time basis.  From this great thought evolved all the Police Services now employed within the Commonwealth.  To go just a bit DEEPER, Law Enforcement Officers only do what is required of ALL citizens - albeit full time, and being financially recompensed for their time.  Following this logic a bit deeper, it is NOT my duty as a citizen to call 911 (although that remains a perfectly logical and valid response) - it IS my duty to intervene with whatever crime I may witness happening.

I'd like the legally approved tools to do that, please.



Roy

 
In other words, and in MY opinion, Sir Robert expected that the citizenry would police themselves as required; understanding that not all citizens could devote the time and effort required, he created a couple of Police Services to do it on their behalf, on a full time basis.  From this great thought evolved all the Police Services now employed within the Commonwealth.  To go just a bit DEEPER, Law Enforcement Officers only do what is required of ALL citizens - albeit full time, and being financially recompensed for their time.  Following this logic a bit deeper, it is NOT my duty as a citizen to call 911 (although that remains a perfectly logical and valid response) - it IS my duty to intervene with whatever crime I may witness happening.

I'd like the legally approved tools to do that, please.

I have another suggestion, go onto blueline.ca, quickly get registered, and ask that question in the rant/lounge section and see what response you get. You can make a citizens arrest, even though it's discouraged, but I think most police would say common sense would dictate not throwing yourself in harms way and choosing a more appropriate course of action.

Your contributions in other threads have shown the trend of being good, well reasoned, logical and good contributions "up to a point" where they seem to cross a line and then go off the rails, normally at a point where logically you should, in the spirit of debate, concede that your opponent has made a good point that you cannot refute, then either riposte on a different vein or offer other reasoned input.  Unfortunatlely I do not see that happening here.  I think you are going off the rails because you have no reasoned response to Roy and I-6's latest contributions. 

How was my response to Infidel 6 not well reasoned, and how did I offend him personally. Yet somehow saying that its unfortunate somebody is wearing a CF uniform because they hold different political beliefs is a well reasoned response. If you all want to have topics in the politics section were everyone is in full agreement, then you might as well ban me now.

Others in this and other posts have already spoken about logic, reason and debating style.  I suggest you take their advice and not keep trying, as you did in the Global Warming thread, to see how low you can go.

Why? I tried that horse, and I don't really feel like being called an eco-jihadist, environmental nazi, etc. yet at the same time be lectured on using logic and reasoning. I'm not gonna go onto that thread when even if I give sources and cite my information I'll still be attacked for lacking the necessary logic to debate. If people want to all come together and be in total agreement while talking about how David Suzuki want's to kill us all, then I won't interfere, I've already held off typing a response in a seperate thread about how Amnesty International is in league with the communists.

 
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