9mm, Too old?
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After sitting back quietly reading the posts, I noticed a common trend; if you're going to get a glock, get it in 9mm. This raises a question...
Is it because of the Glock's design that we should only get a Glock in 9mm? I have heard from some Glock owners that because the Glock was originally designed in 9X19mm Parabellum, the glock isn't guaranteed to perform as well in other calibres (ie .40 S&W, .45 ACP, etc) with respect to mileage and stability. This doesn't make sense, however, since Glocks are made in other calibres anyway. Can someone perhaps clarify if this is just a knock to make glocks sound bad or just plain bogus?
Is it because of the Glock's design that we should only get a Glock in 9mm? I have heard from some Glock owners that because the Glock was originally designed in 9X19mm Parabellum, the glock isn't guaranteed to perform as well in other calibres (ie .40 S&W, .45 ACP, etc) with respect to mileage and stability. This doesn't make sense, however, since Glocks are made in other calibres anyway. Can someone perhaps clarify if this is just a knock to make glocks sound bad or just plain bogus?
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You can find 9mm on any wide spot in the road.
It is cheaper, and the other calibres offer no real improvement in performance when good JHP rounds are used.
The Glock21 (.45APC) is the only Glock I owned that I was glad to be rid of - and and lot of other testing has shown they are the least reliable Glock on the market.
If you have access to a large supply of cheap .40S&W the G22 is not a bad choice -- but for the avg person you will get much more out of the same budget with 9mm.
It is cheaper, and the other calibres offer no real improvement in performance when good JHP rounds are used.
The Glock21 (.45APC) is the only Glock I owned that I was glad to be rid of - and and lot of other testing has shown they are the least reliable Glock on the market.
If you have access to a large supply of cheap .40S&W the G22 is not a bad choice -- but for the avg person you will get much more out of the same budget with 9mm.
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I think the general consensus around Glockophiles is that 9mm Glock just give you the most bang for your buck. And KevinBs point about ammo availability is significant. To illustrate, here in Iraq, where ammunition prices are grossly inflated, 9mm can be had for around $0.50US a round. .45ACP, when you can find it is about $3.00 a round. Demand is high for .45 here as there are quite a few Series 70 Colt 1911s kicking around. For perspective, 7.62x39 is about $0.40US a round.
Back to Glocks in other calibers though. By all accounts the .40 cal Glocks are by all accounts, (I have to go by this, My Glocks are all 9mms) good guns, but due to the added stresses placed on them by the .40 S&W round, a shooter won't get the mileage out of them that you will out of a 9mm. The 357 Sig seems pretty pointless, since it doesn't seem to have appreciably better performance than a +P+ 9mm. The Glock 21s (the .45 ACP version)get kind of mixed reviews. In addition to Kevin's issues with his, the LAPD (which had authorized officers to carry as a private purchase weapon) has seen so many problems with it, that they have banned their officers from carrying it until the problems are rectified. But elsewhere on the net, Glocktalk I think, you'll find one persons account of his unsuccessful attempts to destroy his. He's had it since they came out, shot it coated in mud, dropped it out of an airplane, run over it with his truck, shot it with a .22 LR. And the gun keeps going. So who knows with that. As for the 10mms. Well Ted Nugent loves his Glock 20. That's all I know about that one.
Back to Glocks in other calibers though. By all accounts the .40 cal Glocks are by all accounts, (I have to go by this, My Glocks are all 9mms) good guns, but due to the added stresses placed on them by the .40 S&W round, a shooter won't get the mileage out of them that you will out of a 9mm. The 357 Sig seems pretty pointless, since it doesn't seem to have appreciably better performance than a +P+ 9mm. The Glock 21s (the .45 ACP version)get kind of mixed reviews. In addition to Kevin's issues with his, the LAPD (which had authorized officers to carry as a private purchase weapon) has seen so many problems with it, that they have banned their officers from carrying it until the problems are rectified. But elsewhere on the net, Glocktalk I think, you'll find one persons account of his unsuccessful attempts to destroy his. He's had it since they came out, shot it coated in mud, dropped it out of an airplane, run over it with his truck, shot it with a .22 LR. And the gun keeps going. So who knows with that. As for the 10mms. Well Ted Nugent loves his Glock 20. That's all I know about that one.
TSo, practicality dictates 9mm as a working man's pistol in the sandbox. Makes sense to me.
" (I was rather impressed by the HK .45 cal USP." - I fired one a few weeks back. Nice.
10mm: Ted Nugent probably hunts with it. It is very flexible - load it high or load it low, BUT: If you do not handload, KevinB's advice about 9mm giving more bang for the buck is right on the money, and is pretty much on the money even if you DO handload.
Depends on your priorities: Historical, target/comp, practical field use, handloader/commercial, etc.
Know your local markets: At a Gun Show in Edmonton last fall, some guy was selling once-fired .40 brass in bags of 50. I asked if they were moving at all. He said "Not really." I then told him about how he could go to the Spuce Grove Gun Club and pick up buckets of local LE discarded .223 and .40 brass off the ground for free, and most of us had so much, we just gave it away.
Tom
" (I was rather impressed by the HK .45 cal USP." - I fired one a few weeks back. Nice.
10mm: Ted Nugent probably hunts with it. It is very flexible - load it high or load it low, BUT: If you do not handload, KevinB's advice about 9mm giving more bang for the buck is right on the money, and is pretty much on the money even if you DO handload.
Depends on your priorities: Historical, target/comp, practical field use, handloader/commercial, etc.
Know your local markets: At a Gun Show in Edmonton last fall, some guy was selling once-fired .40 brass in bags of 50. I asked if they were moving at all. He said "Not really." I then told him about how he could go to the Spuce Grove Gun Club and pick up buckets of local LE discarded .223 and .40 brass off the ground for free, and most of us had so much, we just gave it away.
Tom
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Mickey said:
Big Red - I had not heard of Questar before. I got my 19's and 23 before the supply dried up. The mid-frame size does seem to be the way to go for best feel and "pointability" (whatever that is ???)...
Guys the issue of the Glock being best in the 9mm is quite simple. The envelope was designed around the cartridge. It performs best in the format in which it was designed. When the .40 S&W came along the big rush was on to get the first to the market and Glock (along with others) simply shoehorned it into the existing envelope. This often occurred without complete consideration of the added stresses - I know, I know... "but Glock has engineers and everything to sort these things out...". Yeah, right - and they are a profit driven company looking to grab a share of the market before anyone else. Not saying they didn't do all the requisite research, but not everything was known about the .40 that we know now. Things like bullet set-back from repeated chambering of the top round in the mag causing pressures to go all wonky and shoot thru the roof, causing what, you ask?? Well, turning the handgun into a hand grenade (more or less)... Talk to any armourer from forces that use the .40 Glock about some of the things that happen with them. Not saying it's a bad gun, it just gives you extra things to consider.
Fact of the matter is that the .40 is a high-pressure cartridge that performs at a much higher level (and consequently much higher pressures) than the original format 9x19mm. In Gen 2 thru 4 of the .40/.357 Sig cal Glocks there is a reinforcing pin that runs transversly thru the frame in the area over the trigger - why? Because that area needed reinforcement after some use and the engineers figured that as the best fix without a total redesign of the gun...
I have seen personally, at the time of the event, or viewed the remains after, 5 Glocks that KaBlammed while shooting factory ammo. 4 of them were G22's in .40 cal and one was a G21 in .45 ACP. The G21 and one of the G22's were being fired by myself, both of these incidents being the result of the primer being struck with the slide out of battery causing a rupture in the unsupported case-head area. I know this is not supposed to happen, but there you have it. could have been a high primer, could have been dirt in the firing pin channel causing the FP to protrude from the breechface - don't know, couldn't recreate anything...
In both cases maintainance had been routine, not more that 3-400 rds since being field stripped and cleaned and absolutely no more than 1k since detail strip and clean. Both of the events resulted in the floorplate being blown off the mag, all the remaining rounds, the mag spring and follower and parts of the cartridge case being forcibly blown from the bottom of the magwell, and gas coming form the area between the slide and frame immediately over the trigger guard contacting the inside of the basal knuckle of my right hand. I suffered some burns from the G21 and a laceration from the gas coming out of the G22. Both of the pistols were sent back to Glock for inspection and Magnafluxing of the frames/slides/barrels with the result being that the G21 was returned to service unharmed, and the barrel of the G22 was replace at nominal cost due to being out of spec (slight bulging of the chamber).
The 1911 platform is meant to be a .45 ACP, the BHP is meant to be a 9x19mm, as is the Glock mid-frame. I'm not saying that they can't be made to work (after a fashion) in other calibers, but they will never be optimum in other than the original configuration...
YMMV
be safe,
blake
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Wow! 
I figured I was "on the money" with the "mileage issue;" but some the stories with the G21 and G22 are quite shocking. I'm glad I didn't invest in a Glock yet; I actually thought about getting a G21. Guess if I get a .45, it'll have to be Kimber or Springfield Armory.
As for Glocks in general, I have heard a lot of great things about them; the only bad thing that keeps popping up is the weighty trigger pull. As a striker-fired combat handgun, I guess this doesn't really matter for someone who needs a "point-n-shoot" in the sandbox.
I figured I was "on the money" with the "mileage issue;" but some the stories with the G21 and G22 are quite shocking. I'm glad I didn't invest in a Glock yet; I actually thought about getting a G21. Guess if I get a .45, it'll have to be Kimber or Springfield Armory.As for Glocks in general, I have heard a lot of great things about them; the only bad thing that keeps popping up is the weighty trigger pull. As a striker-fired combat handgun, I guess this doesn't really matter for someone who needs a "point-n-shoot" in the sandbox.
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A number of years ago I bought an Inglis (BHP) from a gun shop in Edmonton. It was still packed in the factory grease. It was the Naval version with ramp rear site, and grove in the handle to fit a stock. I used it for a couple of years, then when I had the cash had it re-worked. Top of the slide machined down, proper competion site, fore and aft installed, and the slide polished. Loved it, wish I still had it. Never had a problem with jams using commercial, military surplus or hand loads.
If I were to buy another pistol, it would be a tough choice between the BHP and the Sig.
Just my humble opinion.
If I were to buy another pistol, it would be a tough choice between the BHP and the Sig.
Just my humble opinion.
Brownings like the 1911 are old warhorses and reliable (if you have a good example of one,) then you have a good weapon, yes our brownings are old, but put a new sig and a new browning side by side you have two good weapons. besides your typical IBTS standard for pistol shooting is lacking anyway. most pistol shooting is instinctual and has alot to do with training and muscle memory. you could have a .40 S+W race gun and if someone throws it in your hand and tells you to shoot something....chances are your not going to be the best at it., if you are not familiar with that particular weapon.
also I think grip safety's are "GOOD" esp for something like a glock.....
also I think grip safety's are "GOOD" esp for something like a glock.....
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starlight said:
Then don't buy a Glock, get a Springfield XD instead. I, on the other hand , am not a fan of grip safeties (for a number of reasons), as JMB designed the 1911 for the US mil (read "cavalry") and the horsemen wanted a grip safety, so now we're all stuck with it. I hope that Novak puts their one-piece MSH/backstrap for 1911's on the market - I'll be first in line...
blake
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I despise grip safeties.
Glock is perfect - point and shoot.
I find with a 1911 that sometimes in a draw I can grip the gun and not properly engage the grip safety - why some US Tier guys tape theirs down...
I dont really on ANY mechanical safety to overcome a training issue.
Glock is perfect - point and shoot.
I find with a 1911 that sometimes in a draw I can grip the gun and not properly engage the grip safety - why some US Tier guys tape theirs down...
I dont really on ANY mechanical safety to overcome a training issue.
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Count me in the club. The whole perpetuated system is an attempt to make a firearm idiot proof for idiots. Idiots shouldn't be allowed to handle them.
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Haggis said:
Final relay, Upperclass Twit of the Year contest, narrated by John Cleese (And Now for Something Completely Different)
(they approach a table with five revolvers laid out on it)
"Now all they have to do here to win the title is to shoot themselves. Simon has a shot. Bad luck, he misses. Nigel misses. Now there's Gervaise, and Gervaise has shot himself- Gervaise is Upperclass Twit of the Year. There's Nigel, he's shot Simon by mistake, Simon is back up and there's Nigel, Nigel's shot himself: Nigel is third in this fine and most exciting Upperclass Twit of the Year Show I've ever seen. Nigel's clubbed himself into fourth place."
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