2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Navy_Pete]

That the GST cut will actually save people money is a polite fiction, realistically it will do a combination of two things
-allow people to get more house for their max affordability
-allow homebuilders to capture more of a given home's purchase price as profit

I'm leaning towards more of column B- which is how it will get more homes built.

That being said- to give Pierre credit as a political operator, this might be a "have your cake and eat it too" play. I'm curious as to what percentage of the municipalities that have signed on to the HAF have already made the attached zoning and approval process changes, have the projects underway etc. What will that number be by next October? How binding are the agreements? It's quite possible that by replacing the "failed" HAF with the GST cut he gets to reap the functional benefits of both, while distancing himself from the elements of the HAF that are unpopular with the NIMBY portion of his base.

GST is a short term solution, the HAF is a medium to long term solution that puts the onus on the municipal governments. I think it would be smarter to do both.

Having said that, we really have to stop bulldozing grade A farmland to drop some mcmansions on it when there is a lot of undeveloped brown fields in the cities. The fruitbelt in southern Ontario is a lot of townhouses now.

If the GoC was smart, they maybe would have provided funding to help clean that up, especially as a lot of it is in city limits so would help with intensification, which saves money on infrastructure and cuts down on emissions in real terms by making commutes on public transit or other means easier.

 

[dimsum]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-mps-poilievre-housing-1.7383231

Further to previous article, now naming the 17 Conservative MPs who wrote to Minister Fraser for the Housing accelerator funding.

 

[Halifax Tar]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-mps-poilievre-housing-1.7383231

Further to previous article, now naming the 17 Conservative MPs who wrote to Minister Fraser for the Housing accelerator funding.

I think the first party that can accept good ideas from other parties and use them might be in power for a long time.

But this partisan bullshit has to stop. I'm not defending the accelerator fund, I am simply saying that good ideas are good ideas; it doesn't matter what political party put them forward.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I think the first party that can accept good ideas from other parties and use them might be in power for a long time.

But this partisan bullshit has to stop. I'm not defending the accelerator fund, I am simply saying that good ideas are good ideas; it doesn't matter what political party put them forward.

100%

If PP really is telling MPs not to represent their ridings to the max in asking for help that's available just because he's planning on scrapping said help if he becomes PM, this continues to feed the "not leadership, but opposition for the sake of opposition" narrative against PP

 

[OldSolduer]

I think the first party that can accept good ideas AND SELL THEM AS THEIR OWN from other parties and use them might be in power for a long time.

But this partisan bullshit has to stop. I'm not defending the accelerator fund, I am simply saying that good ideas are good ideas; it doesn't matter what political party put them forward.

ftfy

You are very welcome

 

[dimsum]

ftfy

You are very welcome

In that case, the CPC strategy should have been the opposite: Go all in on it, and frame it as a CPC idea, that the LPC took, but “in the spirit of working together, we also accept”.

100%

If PP really is telling MPs not to represent their ridings to the max in asking for help that's available just because he's planning on scrapping said help if he becomes PM, this continues to feed the "not leadership, but opposition for the sake of opposition" narrative against PP

Absolutely. That’s like the “we will not get F-35s” line, but on an issue that affects far more Canadians.

 

[ArmyRick]

not defending the accelerator fund, I am simply saying that good ideas are good ideas; it doesn't matter what political party put them forward.

Agreed a good idea is a good idea. However the housing accelerator fund has produced very, very little results (lots of fine print to consider and local politicians bungling the handling of said funds, plus it favours larger metro areas and leaves smaller communities with nothing, and those are the ones that should grow)

PP is talking about ditching the failed HAF and replacing it with a results driven policy, not all the funding comes up front until construction is complete and a bonus for early completion.

Many of Trudeau's Liberals put in half assed ideas and then do ZERO monitoring or follow up for effectiveness.

As for his MPs fighting for the HAF to be put into use, makes sense, its a policy and a fund and it should be used while available. The MPs first have a responsibility to their own constituents. My own MP, Alex Ruff, helped guide me to available ag funds from this Liberal government (which I was denied by bureaucrats anyway)

 

[ArmyRick]

That’s like the “we will not get F-35s” line, but on an issue that affects far more Canadians.

Funny YOU brought that up. That specific issue is entirely on Trudeau's shoulders.

Read my above comments. There is a difference between good idea fairy programs vs effective programs with carefully monitored follow up.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Agreed a good idea is a good idea. However the housing accelerator fund has produced very, very little results (lots of fine print to consider and local politicians bungling the handling of said funds, plus it favours larger metro areas and leaves smaller communities with nothing, and those are the ones that should grow)

PP is talking about ditching the failed HAF and replacing it with a results driven policy, not all the funding comes up front until construction is complete and a bonus for early completion.

Not even PP believes his criticism of the HAF. It's by no means a perfect program, but it's making meaningful changes and pushing things in the right direction- which given that the Federal government is 2 layers of jurisdiction removed from the issue is not half bad.


A. The funding is already structured like that - 25% to kickstart things, then 3 more annual payments of 25% contingent upon progress towards stated goals.

B. List of smaller municipalities accepted so far,
Housing Accelerator Fund

Note that the threshold between the streams was 10k, so a lot of the urban municipalities are far from being "large metro areas"

C. He knows that measures centred around funding infrastructure and relaxing zoning aren't going to have instant results. You're a farmer yeah? Current proclamations of the HAF's failure are akin to writing off a corn crop in July because it's not ready to harvest, saying that fertilizing was a waste of money.


The GST exemption is a strong idea, and a great follow up to the HAF. Zoning changes will be made, infrastructure investments will have been committed and projects started, then GST exemption (along with falling interest rates) should catalyze the private investment needed to take advantage of the unbuilt inventory enabled/create by the HAF and turn it into homes.

It's a good plan, and all that payoff is going to be on his watch- what he's doing now is poisoning the well against the current program so that he can reap the benefits without sharing credit, and justify leaving municipalities holding the bag.

 

[ArmyRick]

Not even PP believes his criticism of the HAF.

Really? When did he say this?

contingent upon progress towards stated goals.

From what I read, the goals are very vague and open to interpratation

threshold between the streams was 10k, so a lot of the urban municipalities are far from being "large metro areas"

In real time, very few if any small towns are getting this funding or benefit from it. Maybe they are conservative ridings? After all Goudie Hutchings (Liberal MP) said two years ago conservative ridings should have voted Liberal. I did note the 10K number (which I don't agree with). Many large urban heavily populated areas have received this cash (and from stories I read, some have screwed it up)

You're a farmer yeah? Current proclamations of the HAF's failure are akin to writing off a corn crop in July because it's not ready to harvest

Not really a good analogy. There are many reasons to write off a crop very early such as nematodes, drought, failed sprouting, diseases, infestation, fungal issues, etc. Stay in your lane on this one. Or use a better analogy.

Zoning changes will be made, infrastructure investments will have been committed and projects started, then GST exemption (along with falling interest rates) should catalyze the private investment needed to take advantage of the unbuilt inventory enabled/create by the HAF and turn it into homes.

One of Pierre's points is this must happen MUCH faster. I have dealt with municipal politicians before and sometimes where there is a will, it happens lightning speed. If a city like Toronto can re-name streets overnight, you think they can not zone and make by laws move MUCH faster. The excess population is here NOW! We needed these homes 3 years ago.

Trudeau should damn call a meeting with the premiers and take a war footing approach to this but he won't because he is too chicken shit to actually face them all in one room and he is busy trying to salvage his own name brand built on unwanted and non-factual ideology.

The other issue with the HAF is there is much confusion about how it actually works (or is supposed to), then add in Housing minister Sean Fraser at committee several weeks ago saying the HAF wasn't actually meant to build homes (huh?)

Pierre's point is we need a NEW and EFFECTIVE plan.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Really? When did he say this? ...

Hardly a glowing endorsement here from last year ....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1724142150735311219

... and this via LinkedIn yesterday

Pierre Poilievre on LinkedIn: A guide to Trudeau’s “housing accelerator” fund: 1. Trudeau gives city… | 57 comments

A guide to Trudeau’s “housing accelerator” fund: 1. Trudeau gives city governments millions 2. Building constructions stalls & drops 3. City governments… | 57 comments on LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com

 

[IKnowNothing]

From what I read, the goals are very vague and open to interpratation

The goals vary on an approval by approval basis- not every municipality undertake the same project(s), as such not all can be judged by the same criteria. Point remains - 75% of the money is contingent on delivery of objectives.

In real time, very few if any small towns are getting this funding or benefit from it.

I posted the list. It's not massive, but neither is the list of independent municipalities under 10k in population.

Not really a good analogy. There are many reasons to write off a crop very early such as nematodes, drought, failed sprouting, diseases, infestation, fungal issues, etc. Stay in your lane on this one. Or use a better analogy.

There are many reasons. But the absence of a mature crop (earlier than one can expect it) in and of itself is not one of them. That's kinda the whole issue. PP isn't pointing at any specific "reason to write it off early", he's holding up lack of increase in starts as proof that it's not working. Talking about lanes - development plan and build cycles are months and years long. A funding agreement made in September 2023 resulting in zoning changes in March 2024 isn't resulting in all, or even much, of the impacted/created stock being built in 2024. Pierre knows that (hopefully). But he's counting on his followers not.

One of Pierre's points is this must happen MUCH faster .... you think they can not zone and make by laws move MUCH faster

But the zoning changes have been made- the source of criticism is that the houses haven't been built yet.

....Pierre's point is we need a NEW and EFFECTIVE plan.

The fact of the matter is that the LPC recognized the same issues PP did (restrictive zoning and red tape) and went about addressing them in a very similar manner as PP initially proposed (using Federal dollars to catalyze change). Now that those issues have been addressed pretty much across the country he gets to sling mud and shift gears. I get that he's your guy, but come on man. He's still a politician, playing political games.

 

[ArmyRick]

LPC recognized the same issues PP did (restrictive zoning and red tape) and went about addressing them in a very similar manner

Did they? Given the Liberal Party track record of getting nothing done, don't count on it.

I get that he's your guy, but come on man.

And the choice for many, many other Canadians. No come on, get your head out of the sand. Read that line again. How many people LIKE you keep forgiving and pretending the Liberals haven't fucked up every file they touch. EVERY one.

 

[dimsum]

Funny YOU brought that up. That specific issue is entirely on Trudeau's shoulders.

Read my above comments. There is a difference between good idea fairy programs vs effective programs with carefully monitored follow up.

This may come as a shock but I don’t support everything JT says. The F-35 statements being one of them.

As I said, I didn’t always vote Liberal.

 

[IKnowNothing]

And the choice for many, many other Canadians. No come on, get your head out of the sand. Read that line again. How many people LIKE you keep forgiving and pretending the Liberals haven't fucked up every file they touch. EVERY one.

Guess what? He's currently got my vote too. That doesnt mean I feel the need to fawn over him and accept everything he says as if its come down from the mount graven in stone. He may represent the best option at the present time, but that doesnt change the fact that he's an incredibly manipulative political operator and is often as full of shit as a christmas turkey.

 

[ArmyRick]

Who's fawning? I look for effective COAs being offered. Pierres the only one with any reasonable COA moving forward.

My real criticism for him is he doesn't seem any keener on defence spending. However, I suspect the Orange haired Orangutan (Donald) will strongly encourage ANY Canadian PM to pony up the bucks on military spending

 

[OldSolduer]

Who's fawning? I look for effective COAs being offered. Pierres the only one with any reasonable COA moving forward.

My real criticism for him is he doesn't seem any keener on defence spending. However, I suspect the Orange haired Orangutan (Donald) will strongly encourage ANY Canadian PM to pony up the bucks on military spending

And ensure the borders are safer. We’re a conduit into the USA

 

[dimsum]

And ensure the borders are safer. We’re a conduit into the USA

Depending on whether the incoming POTUS keeps his promise, the USA may be a conduit to us.

 

[ArmyRick]

I think more likely that the Donald will "strongly encourage" whichever Prime Minister to tighten up borders, period. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, if Asylum seekers find it much more difficult to make a claim and/or have their cases heard much, much quicker than current status quo. And most likely deportations will actually happen. The Donald has a lot of power and it isn't just going to be about physical security at the border, he is going to want to see us actually follow our own rules and regulations.

Add to that, even the Trudeau Liberals are publicly turning against abuses to our immigration and refugee system.

 

[Remius]

Depending on whether the incoming POTUS keeps his promise, the USA may be a conduit to us.

And the US will be more than happy to send them up here or at least let them go.