Replacing the Subs

[Colin Parkinson]

RCN Submarine Branch was originally stood up in early August of 1914 with HMCS CC-1 and CC-2, went to Halifax in 1917 and did not leave until they were scrapped in 1920.

HMCS CH14 and CH15 were transferred to the RCN in Feb of 1919, they laid unused until April of 1920. They weren't really operational until 1922 when they were immediately placed in reserve until scrapped in 1927.

Submarine Branch was disbanded until 1945 when the RCN got HMCS U-190 until 1947 when she was scuttled. HMCS U-889 was only under RCN control for a few months before being given to the USN.

The service was disbanded again until the RCN got the former USS Burrfish (renamed HMCS Grilse) on loan from the USN from 1961 - 1969. USS Argonaut (HMCS Rainbow) would replace Burrfish from 1968 - 1974 when she was decommissioned because of a lack of funds.

The RCN got Ojibwa, Onondaga and Okanagan in 1965, with the following two in 1967 and 1968 respectively. They were decommissioned in the late 1990's and replaced by the Upholders.

During a refit, one of the captains examined the ballast tanks and discovered rags and other debris that had clogged the strainers and led to some wild buoyancy issues. Once that was fixed, they behaved much better.

 

[suffolkowner]

If we're going to stick with diesel/ electric, would they be able to leave Halifax, go up to the Arctic, do a prolonged patrol (a month?) and return without using a milchkuh or a surface supply ship?

i feel like that sounds like was in the RFI but i need to download it again

 

[GR66]

i feel like that sounds like was in the RFI but i need to download it again

See the highlights of the RFI specs as posted by @Rainbow1910 previously (here)

 

[Halifax Tar]

If we're going to stick with diesel/ electric, would they be able to leave Halifax, go up to the Arctic, do a prolonged patrol (a month?) and return without using a milchkuh or a surface supply ship?

According to this website the Vics can stay at sea for 45 days.

Victoria-class capability - Canada.ca

Conventional diesel-electric submarines – like the Victoria-class – with stealth capabilities, increased manoeuverability, and extremely quiet electric propulsion systems, have advantages in certain scenarios over their nuclear counterparts.

www.canada.ca

I would say that's fair for DE. That, I imagine, would really test the crew as well. I did 37 days at sea on a Frigate and things got squirrely then, I cant imagine 45 days in a pop can.

Having said that, transit to and from the Artic need to be calculated into those 45 days. It would be ideal to have some form of surface and subsurface service support facilities up there though.

 

[NavyShooter]

31 days straight on a Steamer (Gat) - that was an interesting trip.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

According to this website the Vics can stay at sea for 45 days.

Victoria-class capability - Canada.ca

Conventional diesel-electric submarines – like the Victoria-class – with stealth capabilities, increased manoeuverability, and extremely quiet electric propulsion systems, have advantages in certain scenarios over their nuclear counterparts.

www.canada.ca

I would say that's fair for DE. That, I imagine, would really test the crew as well. I did 37 days at sea on a Frigate and things got squirrely then, I cant imagine 45 days in a pop can.

Having said that, transit to and from the Artic need to be calculated into those 45 days. It would be ideal to have some form of surface and subsurface service support facilities up there though.

Dutch Harbour

 

[deepblue202]

Here is a google map view of the area:

748 Ballyhoo Rd · 748 Ballyhoo Rd, Unalaska, AK 99692

Building

www.google.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well the race just got more interesting

Germany and Norway offer Canada early access to new submarines in pitch to join project

German ambassador to Canada says if Ottawa agrees to buy the 212 CD, a submarine under development by TKMS, it will not have to wait for 12 vessels to first be delivered to Germany and Norway

www.theglobeandmail.com

The 212 CD is a submarine under development by TKMS for the Norwegian and German navies.

Tjorven Bellmann, the German ambassador to Canada, said the Germans and Norwegians have decided to each procure six subs under this program. She said if Canada agrees to buy the 212 CD, it would not have to wait until all 12 vessels had first been delivered to Germany and Norway.

“The idea would be, and the offer has been, that Canada wouldn’t have to go at the end of the queue,” Ms. Bellmann said.

The 212 CDs being built are designed to operate quietly with a reduced sonar signature. “It’s hard to detect, it’s basically stealth, and it can go under ice,” the German ambassador said.

An anti-torpedo torpedo is also in development in Germany that would work with the 212 CD, she said. Seventy per cent of NATO’s conventional submarine fleet comes from TKMS’s shipyard.

The Canadian military has said it needs 12 submarines to properly defend the country, based on the assumption that for high readiness only one of four submarines would be fit to deploy, with others under maintenance or used for

 

[SeaKingTacco]

31 days straight on a Steamer (Gat) - that was an interesting trip.

51 days straight in OTT. Things definitely got squirrelly. The alongside party was straight out of Apocalypse Now and still rates as my lifetime worst hangover.

 

[Nvlgzr]

i thought we assembled a few during ww2 as well?

Some my books are packed up due to a Reno; I think in “Through a Canadian Periscope” it mentions Vickers in Quebec built a bunch for export.

 

[suffolkowner]

Some my books are packed up due to a Reno; I think in “Through a Canadian Periscope” it mentions Vickers in Quebec built a bunch for export.

yeah a buddy has borrowed mine. thats probably what it was

 

[Halifax Tar]

51 days straight in OTT. Things definitely got squirrelly. The alongside party was straight out of Apocalypse Now and still rates as my lifetime worst hangover.

I think CHA back in OP Apollo days has the record, but I could be wrong. I was told she did 70 something.

I feel like after that Dubai would have looked like the sack of Rome.

 

[NavyShooter]

79 I think it was. I got off the ship just before that trip. 56 month posting to the ship and 2 x 6 month deployments...doing that trip would have been...a challenge.

 

[Underway]

If we're going to stick with diesel/ electric, would they be able to leave Halifax, go up to the Arctic, do a prolonged patrol (a month?) and return without using a milchkuh or a surface supply ship?

That's one of the main requirements. 30 day independent patrol in the Arctic, get their on their own.

 

[Underway]

I think CHA back in OP Apollo days has the record, but I could be wrong. I was told she did 70 something.

I feel like after that Dubai would have looked like the sack of Rome.

Yep, and before that it was VAN, which did 63 days. Friend of mine was the Navigator. The CO asked the crew if they wanted to go for the record. The crew was all in. By day 63 there was some serious buyers remorse as everyone wanted to kill each other.

I think CHA got the actual record, but not intentionally, but because the threat level to their port stops was to high.

 

[Grimey]

79 I think it was. I got off the ship just before that trip. 56 month posting to the ship and 2 x 6 month deployments...doing that trip would have been...a challenge.

That was the plus side of losing HUR in 2000 for us west coast 280 ladies. For the rest of ALG’s time, we had half a crew ashore at the school and FMF. Enabled us to avoid the burnout of back-to-back deployments.

 

[OldSolduer]

So how often would these new subs need to surface or snorkel and recharge?

 

[Underway]

So how often would these new subs need to surface or snorkel and recharge?

Trying to remember the RFI but I think it's a 30 day submerged endurance. Some of the subs on that list can go to 40 on paper.

But indiscretion rate itself is a combination of factors, submerged endurance, how fast they can recharge batteries at the surface etc... LI batteries for example can charge 3 times faster than lead acid, which is a significant improvement in the indiscretion category.

 

[OldSolduer]

Trying to remember the RFI but I think it's a 30 day submerged endurance. Some of the subs on that list can go to 40 on paperThat is a long time to be underwater. thanks but I will stay on land, where its safe. Or kinda safe./

 

[Rainbow1910]

Well the race just got more interesting

The 212 CD is a submarine under development by TKMS for the Norwegian and German navies.

Tjorven Bellmann, the German ambassador to Canada, said the Germans and Norwegians have decided to each procure six subs under this program. She said if Canada agrees to buy the 212 CD, it would not have to wait until all 12 vessels had first been delivered to Germany and Norway.

“The idea would be, and the offer has been, that Canada wouldn’t have to go at the end of the queue,” Ms. Bellmann said.

I have a hard time buying this as a serious proposal, given how the Germans and Norwegians have 6 and 4 boats of that class already ordered respectively. That isn't even considering the 3 and 2 additional boats likely to be added to the previously mentioned orders by those nations respectively. Then you have nations like Poland who are looking at the Type 212CD as well at the same time we are.

Where is the room there for Canada to receive its 12 boats? I don't see it in the slightest. Even if they let us jump into the queue somewhere to alternate deliveries, Canada is getting the larger Type 212CDE variant and Topshee wants the first boat delivered by the early 2030's now as far as I know. Sounds like the Germans are biting off more than they can chew to me and are hoping to snag Canada, only to slow roll us after some initial concessions.