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Hamas invaded Israel 2023

brihard said:
Eat a bag of dicks.
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Solid "mentor" post there...

More to the point, you see a video edited without context and immediately go full "war crimes".

I have enough LOAC training to know that an edited video of an active combat situation is not grounds to make accusations or insinuations about war crimes that can be used against a partner nation.
 
Furniture said:
Solid "mentor" post there...
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I stand by every word of it, including that. You wanted to sling crap, I can do that just fine. Alternatively, you could have challenged my concerns with a bit of civility. You chose not to.

Furniture said:
More to the point, you see a video edited without context and immediately go full "war crimes".

I have enough LOAC training to know that an edited video of an active combat situation is not grounds to make accusations or insinuations about war crimes that can be used against a partner nation.
Click to expand...

False. I see a video released by those portrayed in it, the IDF. In that video we can see the things I described. We know that the context is in the Israeli defense against the ongoing attacks by Hamas. We also know that Israel has acted quite freely in retaliation and reprisal, and we know that, historically, it's not unheard of for there to be smaller scale excesses arising out of soldiers' anger, or simply getting 'caught up' in the fight.

It's damned near impossible to be dumped in the water from a blown up watercraft and put up much if any of a fight. We see the Israelis engaging them at a pretty decent distance with machinegun fire. I don't rule out the possibility that they could still be a threat while in the drink, but to me, applying logic to the situation and what we see, it seems damned unlikely. Enough so that rather than seeing the video and celebrating how cool it is, instead I lean towards 'what if it's what it looks like?' and flagging the concern.

It's also entirely possible that I'm wrong. That's why I said "It sorta looks like", stated what it appears to be to me, and then said "if that's the case, it's a war crime". What I did NOT do is come out making a bold and certain assertion where I've concluded what must have happened. But I'm not obligated to worried very hard about if what looks and possibly quacks like a duck is, in fact, actually a heron or a seagull before asking "is that a duck?" Were that the case, I'd have posted in the latest Trenton Wing Commander thread.
 
This article suggests there were Hamas divers involved, as well as troops in boats. Regardless, given the circumstances, I wouldn't be taking any chances by trying to take any of those fanatics in the water prisoner...


New footage shows harbor security unit foiling Hamas naval infiltration on October 7​


The new video showed that after Hamas speedboats were sunk by Dvora-class patrol boats of the 916th Patrol Squadron, the Snapir sailors on small Defender-class boats opened fire and used depth charges against the surviving terrorists, as well as Hamas divers.

The IDF said the attackers attempted to swim toward the Israeli coast.

“Snapir fighters opened fire on the terrorists, amid a naval pursuit. The fighters thwarted a number of terrorists at sea, and from there they continued to thwart terrorists when they reached the coastline,” the IDF said.

Snapir is a protection force and harbor security unit that is part of the patrol squadrons stationed at the Navy’s bases in Ashdod, Haifa and Eilat.

The IDF said that the Navy killed dozens of Palestinian terrorists on speedboats and other vessels during the assault last weekend.

New footage shows harbor security unit foiling Hamas naval infiltration on October 7

Snapir sailors on Defender-class boats kill terrorists trying to reach Israel's shore during assault
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
 
daftandbarmy said:
This article suggests there were Hamas divers involved, as well as troops in boats. Regardless, given the circumstances, I wouldn't be taking any chances by trying to take any of those fanatics in the water prisoner...


New footage shows harbor security unit foiling Hamas naval infiltration on October 7​


The new video showed that after Hamas speedboats were sunk by Dvora-class patrol boats of the 916th Patrol Squadron, the Snapir sailors on small Defender-class boats opened fire and used depth charges against the surviving terrorists, as well as Hamas divers.

The IDF said the attackers attempted to swim toward the Israeli coast.

“Snapir fighters opened fire on the terrorists, amid a naval pursuit. The fighters thwarted a number of terrorists at sea, and from there they continued to thwart terrorists when they reached the coastline,” the IDF said.

Snapir is a protection force and harbor security unit that is part of the patrol squadrons stationed at the Navy’s bases in Ashdod, Haifa and Eilat.

The IDF said that the Navy killed dozens of Palestinian terrorists on speedboats and other vessels during the assault last weekend.

New footage shows harbor security unit foiling Hamas naval infiltration on October 7

Snapir sailors on Defender-class boats kill terrorists trying to reach Israel's shore during assault
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
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And if that’s the case, fair enough. If there were, in fact, combat swimmers/divers, I wouldn’t expect Israel to wait for them to make it to land first, if they knew enough to be reasonably confident that that was the threat they were dealing with. If you’re crew from a wrecked vessel/vehicle, and stuck in what other people on your side are still making a battlefield, that’s a pretty bad day for you. I’ll give more leeway still if it was closer in to and protecting a military harbour during active hostilities.

I’m not convinced one way or another, but that statement does give me some reassurance, and I’m perfectly fine giving the benefit of the doubt to the force defending itself against a sudden onslaught.
 
Not a bad strategic concept. Incite maximum rage as quickly as possible, then allow attention to turn to the enraged opponent who will bleed in the media for weeks for every imagined instance of misconduct. Of course there will be a lot of assistance from people inclined to allow Hamas's conduct to temporarily fade into the background while Israel's comes under strict scrutiny.
 
Brad Sallows said:
Not a bad strategic concept. Incite maximum rage as quickly as possible, then allow attention to turn to the enraged opponent who will bleed in the media for weeks for every imagined instance of misconduct. Of course there will be a lot of assistance from people inclined to allow Hamas's conduct to temporarily fade into the background while Israel's comes under strict scrutiny.
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Realistically, there are likely to be cases of misconduct that aren’t imagined. That’s pretty much an inevitability of war. I’m sure it happened to some of our guys too in modern conflicts, even if it’s never made the news.

Those who might be inclined to ignore or wave away Hamas’ atrocities because of Israeli excesses in retaliation are lost souls anyway. Nothing excuses or in any way mitigates what Hamas did. Nothing possibly could.

I think it’s important for anyone observing a conflict from the outside to recognize the unlikelihood that either side will keep its hands totally clean. We should be willing and ready to raise concerns and draw scrutiny to potential excesses. That’s how the collective ‘western we’ hold ourselves to acceptable standards.

I also think there are a tremendous amount of anti-Israeli propagandists that will use that same notion as a pretext to shit on them every chance they get. I doubt anyone here would disagree. But we cannot let illegitimate or bad-faith criticism drown out or overshadow the validity of concerns raised in good faith.
 
daftandbarmy said:
Oh dear, it seems that the Egyptians aren't paying attention to our illustrious Minister of Foreign Affairs ...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713107080712782170
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Can’t blame them; they have the right to control their borders.

The Gazan Palestinians are essentially damned by the hostility or, at best, scornful indifference of everyone else in their region. There’s nowhere for them to go, except to filter - when permitted - back north through descending Israeli forces like coffee in a French Press.
 
brihard said:
On reflection, no, I was out of line. Please accept my apology. I can and should be better than that, however much I might object to how you come at me on a post.
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I am also passionate about this, and prone to poking too hard. My apologies, I know you're just trying to be objective in a very emotional topic. I will try to be better.
 
Furniture said:
I am also passionate about this, and prone to poking too hard. My apologies, I know you're just trying to be objective in a very emotional topic. I will try to be better.
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All good man. There’s a whole lot here for good people to be supremely kissed off about, and more still to be worried about. I don’t think you and I are very far apart at all.
 
War Crime or not. I think the vast majority of us would of reacted the same way as the Israeli's on the Snapir.

I'm not condoning war crimes here, but this was happening during the active assault by Hamas, where these sailors were getting live updates about what was happening at other places on the border. Places where they may have had friends or family.

In their eyes, every Palestinian crossing the border was a legitimate threat. They had no idea how limited the scope of the incursion was. That one Palestinian you pull out of the water may have had a bomb vest. If one of the Palestinian's made landfall, there is good chance they would have killed any Israeli they could.

The vast majority of Palestinian's who taken part of the incursion, I'm sure, had no intention's of getting out of it alive. It was a suicide mission from the start and those people are even harder to take prisoner.

It's infinitely easier to apply filters to an event after the event has happened, than to do so while in the active event.
 
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Jarnhamar said:
"We're not supporting Hamas we're supporting a Free Palestine. Also, good job on those October 7th attacks"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713287033303474243
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I see a lot of fighting age males... If they feel so strongly why don't they return to Gaza and take up arms with their brethren ?

You know especially as the speaker opens with them returning to Palestine. I won't get in your way. Infact I'd happily front the plane ticket for them home.
 
Re the boat and the LOAC.

If an APC is disabled and the section scoots.....
 
Kirkhill said:
Re the boat and the LOAC.

If an APC is disabled and the section scoots.....
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If a small boat goes down and the section can escape by running away, then the situation is the same as the APC. Most people cannot run on water.
 
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