Would Mandatory National Service make the CF stronger?

[Jascar]

At the age of 17 your sent a package announcing you have to start national service. Inside the package would be a booklet with a variety of militia and civil   trades   relating to national security such as SAR workers, Ambulance Drivers, and various Militia(ie: purely defensive force) positions. People choosing those options would be "in" until the age of 45, during this time they would be required only to go on a 2 month long training course at the beginning, and a single one week course every year. This would not be the only option, however. Alternatively one could join the Reserves for a set period of time, become a professional and work in a public service(crown prosecuter or defense, public health care worker), serves in the Regular Forces, service in the RCMP, or the Coast Guard. Effectively, as long as you are spending a period of a few years serving Canada, everything is fine. Now, as a last resort, and if you disagree to serve, you loose your claim to free public service, ie: no police service, ambulance service, hospitals or welfare. In this system no body would have a political/religious/moral reason   not to serve, as any form of service, no necessarily military, is available.

The amount of bureaucracy required to run this system would be absolutely enormous. You want to move to Hickville, Saskatchewan? Ok, just wait 18 months for the paperwork to go through. Hope they didn't need you to start that new job this year.....The nearest military base is 827 km away from Hickville? Have a nice drive to work, sir. You called for an ambulance? Please wait while we check to see if you've done your civil service and are allowed the benefit of medical attention. You now earn enough money that you don't require social services and therefore don't want to participate in military service anymore? Sorry, you signed up until you're 45, soldier. You want to live in another country for a few years? OK, but then you have to do the military service that you missed when you come back. You should be finished when you're......62. Hold that rifle straight, gramps.

What exactly would we do with ambulance drivers who only work one week a year? I think I'd rather have a full-time employee driving me to the hospital, thanks.

 

[nULL]

"HAHAHAHA YOU FOOLS TOMORROW MORNING WE MARCH TO POLAND"

Can we stop for a 45 pack of Tim Bitz, and a Coffie first? 

Cheers!
P. ;D

in marxist-leninist canada,Tim Bitz and Coffee stop you.

 

[Military Brat]

Bad idea, especially in a country such as Canada. One of the side effects of Canada's unparalleled multiculturalism is that many of her subjects would have trouble fighting for the "values we all believe in." If Canadians are unable to come to a consensus on values such as marriage and bilingualism, I doubt international affairs will go over well. I mean, if it was hummed-and-hawed upon by the CDN government (largely because of Quebec) during a period where the entire world was at war.....

Well, I think there are definantely things that most everyone in this country agrees on. Examples; democracy, charter of rights. I don't think I would ever ask someone to stand up and defend something they didn't believe in with their life. But I did state I would only support conscription if the future of the country relied upon it. The future of the country isn't in jeopardy because of billingualism or marriage, but it could be in jeopardy because of a world war, like World War 2, where a fascist dictator tried to take the world by force. That is a prime example where I think Canadians have a role in stopping that threat.

But to tell you the truth, I don't think we will ever see conscription in Canada ever again, we are in a time of technology where it's the technology and not the manpower that wins the battle, as opposed to World War 1, World War 2, or the Korean war where it was a war of attrition and we needed every last man we could muster to confront and defeat the enemy.

And Brat, speaking as a university-going lefty who is ALSO in the process of enlisting, I'd just like to know whether or not you have actually been to a university. I'm curious, because during my poli sci lectures, I heard nothing but good things about the forces from other students.

No, I have not been to university. But I am sure you have heard many good things about the Forces, probably about the humanitarian aid the CF provides to people in far off lands. That is all great. I am sure all Canadians are proud that soldiers put it on the line to represent Canada. But there are many Canadians, especially in the youth of our society, who unfortunately believe military spending should be cut or done with all together. I don't think the majority of Canadians hold that view, but the numbers of people who are coming to that conclusion is certainly on the rise. Many Canadians think we shouldn't focus on our military because the good ole US of A will always be there to defend us. (Funny thing is that it's pretty much the same people who take a stab at American foreign policy every chance they get). But we have agreements, like NATO, like NORAD, and UN peacekeeping missions that we have to provide soldiers to.

Oh, and on the Marxist-Leninist party of Canada....

http://www.cpcml.ca/tmld/Archive.htm

Perhaps you could highlight the article that outlines the coming US invasion and need to militarize...? I found articles like these:

"¢ The Challenge Facing Small Parties (notice how people are voting for major parties because "they can't be any worse?")
"¢ Elect a Steelworker to Parliament! (not a bad idea to get rid of career politicians!)
"¢ A Public Dogfight Is Not a Leader's Debate (Martin in particular was being an *******, attacking Layton who was polite throughout)

Some are pretty extreme, true, but I didn't see any that were particularly threatening.
Perhaps you should form your own opinions instead of trying to using stereotypes and overblown generalizations to score points with conservative members of the board.

I heard, this evening, from the leader of the Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada, on CPAC, in French (it was translated into English, so maybe something was lost in the translation) but from what I gathered they thought American annexation of Canada was coming and that we needed to discuss measures to stop it. Personally I don't think invasion from the USA is coming, and I never mentioned anything about the Marxist-Leninist Party supporting beefing up the military. In fact, not knowing much of their platform, I would gather they are more anti-war, anti-military. But I believe they are also anti-globilization, anti-US policy, which might lead to their dislike of the USA.

 

[ags281]

I'm not too fond of mandatory service. I'd take one person holding their ground beside me over ten people running to save their sorry asses any day.

Saying we need conscription and that our forces need more people are two totally different arguments. First we need to clean up the problems with recruiting, training, equipment, leadership, and anything else that is causing problems with retention. If the problems in these areas are fixed - or at least reduced to a respectable level - and there is still a shortage of new faces each year, then maybe we can talk about alternatives to voluntary service. Conscription would be treating the symptom, not the cause.

We can't deny citizenship to someone unwilling to serve, but we can certainly give benefits to those that do. How do the following suggestions sound for options:

--1 yr 50% tuition assistance or X% tax reduction for each year served in reserves?
--no federal taxes for reg force and full time reserve (continues after retirement if 20 yrs served)?
--permanent X% tax reduction for 10 yrs class A or 5 yrs class B/C/reg force?
--Job security for reserves on training or deployment (not bothering with "?" for this one)

To be fair to those who aren't military types, can't meet the CF medical standards, or simply want an alternative, this principle could extend to full-time service with a list of approved/credible NGO's (e.g. red cross, medecins sans frontieres, salvation army) either domestically or abroad. For example, the government could give a year's worth of tuition (either retroactive or credit for next year) or a tax credit for each year served. Having more Canadian citizens with an actual understanding of the REAL world would do wonders for our society too (those that spend time in the 3rd world especially would definately be unlikely to take Canadian citizenship for granted).

Basic principle is this: as a Canadian citizen, you have the option to contribute to the Canadian or international communities with either your time or your money. It just happens that if you contribute time you can gain valuable insight into the world around you, plus have an experience that you will carry with you for the rest of your life.

Do you think this is reasonable, or am I on crack?

 

[Pugnacious]

"Having more Canadian citizens with an actual understanding of the REAL world would do wonders for our society too (those that spend time in the 3rd world especially would definately be unlikely to take Canadian citizenship for granted)."

Sounds good to me. 

One question... how does one deal with the few that come to Canada, get citizenship, and then do sweet bugger all but complain, and pine for the 'old coutry'.
I know someone from Sarajevo (sp?) like this, if yah can believe it.
Or is this another topic?

Cheers!
P.

 

[ags281]

One question... how does one deal with the few that come to Canada, get citizenship, and then do sweet bugger all but complain, and pine for the 'old coutry'.

Well, just as with any other citizen who chooses not to serve, they miss out on the benefits granted to those that do. In addition to this, when they open their mouth to complain, and say how good things were back in the "old country", their bs will be detected immediately by those that will have served in places such as their beloved "old country" or even the country at issue itself. Looking like an idiot in front of a large number of peers who you are fully aware know from first hand experience that you are full of crap can be a powerful motivation to shut up. Society would be a bit better, but expecting an end to human stupidity is probably asking a bit much.

 

[Stakhanov]

I, Personally, don't agree with manditory MILITASRY service.  Germany has a good system though, many people believe it is mandatory military service, when it is really mandatory civil service...and yes there is a difference.  I would support mandatory civil service to be allowed to vote.....civil service includes military, but you can also work for hospitals, or other such things benefitting society.  However, if we look at a lot of countries with mandatory service...like Germany and Austria, and Switzerland....they also have free public university.  Hell....if we could get university free about 70% of the student body would vote for mandatory civil service...

 

[nULL]

No, I have not been to university. But I am sure you have heard many good things about the Forces, probably about the humanitarian aid the CF provides to people in far off lands. That is all great. I am sure all Canadians are proud that soldiers put it on the line to represent Canada. But there are many Canadians, especially in the youth of our society, who unfortunately believe military spending should be cut or done with all together. I don't think the majority of Canadians hold that view, but the numbers of people who are coming to that conclusion is certainly on the rise. Many Canadians think we shouldn't focus on our military because the good ole US of A will always be there to defend us. (Funny thing is that it's pretty much the same people who take a stab at American foreign policy every chance they get). But we have agreements, like NATO, like NORAD, and UN peacekeeping missions that we have to provide soldiers to.

The last people you should be attacking is the youth of the country for not being patriotic or not supporting the forces. Say what you will about the education system, but the youth of the country are more aware of their country's past sacrifices than many adults, and are damn proud of it. Have you looked in a textbook recently? If you want to attack anyone for a desire to scrap the forces, you should blame the adults who live comfortable lives in the suburbs and work a white collar job - you know, the ones who are currently making the decisions and hurting the forces.

I heard, this evening, from the leader of the Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada, on CPAC, in French (it was translated into English, so maybe something was lost in the translation) but from what I gathered they thought American annexation of Canada was coming and that we needed to discuss measures to stop it. Personally I don't think invasion from the USA is coming, and I never mentioned anything about the Marxist-Leninist Party supporting beefing up the military. In fact, not knowing much of their platform, I would gather they are more anti-war, anti-military. But I believe they are also anti-globilization, anti-US policy, which might lead to their dislike of the USA.

Perhaps you misunderstood the translation. My take on an American invasion would be a situation where Canada is help hostage by international trade agreements into losing her ability to control her own foreign policy. During the build-up to the Iraq war, I remember some pundits kicking around the idea that if we didn't go, or even send a token force, the softwood lumber dispute would take a turn for the worse.

THE INVASION HAS ALREADY BEGUN. WE MUST KILL THEM ALL.

EDIT: And yes, in classes we do learn about the humanitarian aid and peacekeeping that Canada prides itself on. Interestingly enough, when did something like that become dishonourable, or not worth the time? Wars don't happen all that often, but right now, we could be somewhere spreading our good name, helping people out, and reducing the risks that systemic poverty and famine will bring to world stability years from now. That said, while peacekeeping gave you a good feeling, so did learning about Juno Beach, Vimy Ridge, and the liberation of Europe. You should be targeting the people who have forgotten these things, not those that are still inspired by them.

 

[Military Brat]

I don't think a civil service system would work if the goal is to boost numbers in the armed forces. I would bet that 9 times out of 10, a person would rather serve in a hospital than in a war. We live in a society where we put a great deal of value on life. Most people like giving back to the country that has given them so much, but a lot of people are hesitant to risk their life. That doesn't mean they don't support what the CF does, it just means that they themselves wouldn't want to do the same job. The military isn't cut out for everybody after all.

 

[Pugnacious]

Well I think a good start ould be to move towards the manditory civil service, esp' it it nets us free university.
I know countless friends and family that are struggling for decades to pay of student loans.  Wannah improve our future, and get serious about education?
Open the schools free to everyone.

Also the manditory civil service would get young people out and about, and away from their often too narrow tunnel relities on life, and give a good perspectinve of our country.

I can't see it being nothing but a good thing.  Think of how many young (and old) people right now in Canada don't have a clue what they are going to do in life.
The experience of manditory civi service might give them some good ideas.  Maybe I should have been raised in Germany or Switzerland..I know I would have thrived in such a system, and prob' had a few degees by now, and could be really giving somethingback  to my country.

Cheers!
P.

 

[wongskc]

To be fair to those who aren't military types, can't meet the CF medical standards, or simply want an alternative, this principle could extend to full-time service with a list of approved/credible NGO's (e.g. red cross, medecins sans frontieres, salvation army) either domestically or abroad... Having more Canadian citizens with an actual understanding of the REAL world would do wonders for our society too (those that spend time in the 3rd world especially would definately be unlikely to take Canadian citizenship for granted).

Basic principle is this: as a Canadian citizen, you have the option to contribute to the Canadian or international communities with either your time or your money. It just happens that if you contribute time you can gain valuable insight into the world around you, plus have an experience that you will carry with you for the rest of your life.

Completely agree 100%.  You outlined a line of thought that I have been musing over for a little while.  And the added advantage of having a population with real life experiences in all kinds of different environments is a compelling argument in itself for a system like this.

The last people you should be attacking is the youth of the country for not being patriotic or not supporting the forces. Say what you will about the education system, but the youth of the country are more aware of their country's past sacrifices than many adults, and are damn proud of it. Have you looked in a textbook recently? If you want to attack anyone for a desire to scrap the forces, you should blame the adults who live comfortable lives in the suburbs and work a white collar job - you know, the ones who are currently making the decisions and hurting the forces.

Again, I have to agree with this quote.  I only know maybe one or two people out of dozens my age that believe we should scrap the forces.  Everyone else is for it.  I even heard a younger poli sci prof state (paraphrasing) "the Liberals use the military as place to test their social experiments.  They don't realize that some day we might need them to fight a war."

 

[ags281]

I only know maybe one or two people out of dozens my age that believe we should scrap the forces.   Everyone else is for it.   I even heard a younger poli sci prof state (paraphrasing) "the Liberals use the military as place to test their social experiments.   They don't realize that some day we might need them to fight a war."

I think I like that prof.

 

[Limpy]

I kinda like the idea that Heinlein put forth in Starship troopers, where in order to be a full citizen with the power to vote you have to enlist in the federal service.  

I to thought that this idea was very intriguing. It's right of passage that might sort the honest from the dishonest, the loyal from the disloyal and the willing from the unwilling and prevent those of unsound minds from gaining positions of power of others. Not to mention a sizable amount of man power when needed and respect that freedoms don't come cheap.
          However, It would never wash in this country. I think members of the CF should be given very special pprivilegesin Canada. Something that ordinary civilians would want to join up for like wide spread tax exemptionsfrom say GST for the rest of their life.

 

[Scratch_043]

However, It would never wash in this country. I think members of the CF should be given very special pprivilegesin Canada. Something that ordinary civilians would want to join up for like wide spread tax exemptionsfrom say GST for the rest of their life.

Never gonna happen

 

[Limpy]

I know. Just an example.

 

[Sheerin]

Hey, Null what school do you go to? 
I'm going into my fourth year at Trent and the most common thing I hear about the forces is that they should be disbanded.  Unfortunately, the majority of the people I go to school with seem to think the military's only purpose is to invade innocent third world countires and rape their women and steal their resources. 
On a sidenote, I find it rather ironic that the majority of my friends/school mates seem to think that if there was any threat to Canada the United States would protect us... and will later say that we should separate ourselves from the Monster to the south. 

 

[nULL]

Third year at malaspina UC, the only place you can get a degree by double minoring. haha, whatever, that just means I'll be wielding a useless degree and be off to try my hand at being a pilot when I'm 21 instead of 23.

And your friends are idiots.

I'm sorry, but it's true.

 

[Blindspot]

I have thought about this many times and wondered if perhaps the the answer would lie in having military service as an option among other options. Other options might include some kind of domestic disaster relief corps and an international aid corps. All these services including the military are and would be fantastic character building vehicles for the youth of this country who have it too easy and are self-serving in nature. Incentives could be given like university tuition paid for each year of service, and inherent trade skills.

Such programs would bring about a little more structure to the lives of the youth of our nation. When you see masses of hundreds of young adults hanging out at an urban mall doing absolutely nothing, you wonder where all that energy could be directed positively for the benefit of the country if such things were made mandatory.

 

[Goober]

How can you claim your country to be a "Free" country when it forces someone to do something against their will, such as join the military. Some people are not cut out for the military and would only be a liability, some people are anti-war, some people are terrified of guns and would probably end up shooting one of their own in the arse, and others should NOT be trusted with a gun or the responsibility of defending a nation. For some people, the wheel is spinning, but the hamsters dead. Oh but wait he's the one sitting in that fox hole with you trusted to keep you awake... Gotta love mandatory military service....

 

[ags281]

How can you claim your country to be a "Free" country when it forces someone to do something against their will, such as join the military.

Which is why people have suggested that it would NOT be mandatory, rather that incentives would be given to those that serve.

Some people are not cut out for the military and would only be a liability, some people are anti-war, some people are terrified of guns and would probably end up shooting one of their own in the arse, and others should NOT be trusted with a gun or the responsibility of defending a nation.

Don't forget that many others are perfectly capable, but would perfer to direct their efforts to getting food to starving people and such. This is why a number of people have mentioned giving the same sort of incentives not only for military service, but for work as disaster relief, aid worker, etc. Have you not been reading the discussion?

For some people, the wheel is spinning, but the hamsters dead.

Hey! That's my line. Go get your own