Won't Stand on guard for thee - a man's opposition to the Canadian flag & anthem

[Blackhorse7]

Shec,

Don't get me wrong, there is NO way you could do this right now (the cut off thing..), without open revolt.  And I am happy to see the well thought out comments that posters have to these problems.  I was more thinking along the lines of a gradual move towards a unified Canada.  I don't think a 20 or even 15 year timeframe would be too unreasonable.  I just hate the aspect that I am having to pay and suffer through things that some jerk did hundreds of years ago.  That, and the fact that I hate seeing a nation divided.  Let me give an example.

I go to a call on the Reserve to Subject "A"'s house.  He has been broken into by a well known criminal who lives on the Reserve as well.  When I go arrest this Subject "B", he says I am arresting him because he is native, despite the fact his fingerprints are all over subject "A"'s house.  Subject "A" is happy at justice being done.  But next week, Subject "A" is intoxicated and causing a disturbance in the local bar.  I attend, and arrest him for being drunk in public.  Subject "A", who just last week was happy that I had caught the person who broke into their house, now says I am arresting HIM, because he is native.  I get that all the time.  Right away the Race Card comes out, with no thought to the fact that I am arresting them FOR BREAKING THE LAW.  It has nothing to do with who they are.

Racism is a two way street.  You can be a racist, or be accused of being one, even if you are not.  What I would like to see is an end to those beliefs, and an end to the Native/white divide.  If that teacher would stand and face the flag with pride, I would have no problem doing the same for him, with his beliefs.  It's about respect, blind to differences.

 

[Gunnerlove]

I am always shocked by how someone can stand up and say we should do (insert simple action here) and everything will be fine. If all of our problems were that easily solved they would have been solved a long time ago. The Canadian government has made some very poor choices regarding natives, and we are now reaping the rewards and will be for generations. Reform is needed (reform should be a constant) however drastic changes to policy rarely produce the benefits intended.

Just imagine how much money we could save annually if we totally cut the natives off. I am sure it would almost cover the first month of of holding our now horribly destabilized country together. You took cause and effect into consideration, right guys?

As Canadians it is in our best interests to avoid alienating and marginalizing large portions of our population.

 

[Canuck_25]

As Canadians it is in our best interests to avoid alienating and marginalizing large portions of our population.

2%? that is a quite minimal part of our population. Also consider this, 2% spread across 6000 km, it wont destablise the country. Chirst, Canadians of Indian origen out number the native population.

 

[Sgt.Fitzpatrick]

If he doesn't like Canada's heritage then he can leave Canada.Also this so disrespectful and rude. It ironic how people like this like Canada and say it's their land but can be so rude.But on the other hand his people have bind thought a lot so you can't toally blame for being so bitter.

 

[badpup]

As Canadians it is in our best interests to avoid alienating and marginalizing large portions of our population.

This is just what the Liberal minded among us would have us believe, the fact of the matter is that the LARGEST portion of the population is marginalized, and alienated. have you ever been denied something because you are a white anglo saxon male? I have.
I am not a racist, I am an equalist, I believe in absolute equality for all, male, female, white, and non white, I believe that Canadian society today is not too much different than South African Aparthied in that we allow the minority to dictate to the majority.
Things do need to change before there is a revolt, and I do not think that the revolt will be from a minority group within Canada, but rather a fed up majority.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Another thing that makes one go â ?Hmmmmâ ? from today's Globe and Mail at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050317.wmartin17/BNStory/National/

Send an aboriginal to Rideau Hall

By LAWRENCE MARTIN
Thursday, March 17, 2005 Updated at 12:00 AM EST
From Thursday's Globe and Mail

With the native peoples of Canada, one thing is constant. In terms of the public consciousness, they are an afterthought. Intermittent pangs of sympathy and concern have supplanted our former condescension. But, by and large, they are still looked on as substrata, forefathers to forget.

It's a distressing condition, one not easily changed. But there's a plan in the works in the Prime Minister's Office that could help change perceptions. It is to make an aboriginal the next governor-general.

The office, like many in this country, is usually alternated between anglophones and francophones. Initially, only viscounts, lords, earls and dukes got it. As for a native Canadian â ” a Cree, a Mi'kmaq, a Dene â ” not in your life.

But, this time, it's different. The idea of sending a native Canadian to Rideau Hall bubbled up last year and might have happened then. But there were complications because of the election and the minority government, and Adrienne Clarkson's term was extended into this year.

The name mentioned for the post is long-time native-rights advocate Georges Erasmus, the 56-year-old former president of the Dene Nation and national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. He was born in the Northwest Territories and came to public prominence early. Bushy haired and eloquent, he was all over the television screens. He turned the AFN into a powerhouse and was co-chair of Brian Mulroney's Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples. He was sometimes referred to as the 11th premier in Confederation.

In 2002, John Ralston Saul called on Mr. Erasmus to deliver the LaFontaine-Baldwin lecture on the future of Canadian democracy. He is now based in Ottawa, where he heads the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, which distributes $350-million to address the effects of physical and sexual abuse in residential schools. With his polish and political experience, Mr. Erasmus could be a good fit for Rideau Hall. (Also mentioned as a possible choice is Roberta Jamieson, the Mohawk from Grand River who was Ontario's first female ombudsman.)

More important than the name, though, is the idea. A spark of imagination would light up the Martin government if it goes through with this. A native Canadian as governor-general would give the first nations a presence they've never had before. The post is the most dignified in the country, and dignity is something that aboriginals have rarely been accorded.

Ms. Clarkson â ” forget all that silliness about her spending a few ducats â ” has elevated the governor-general's role from a sleepy hollow to a position of high visibility and cultural significance.

It seems only reasonable that a representative of the first nations should occupy Rideau Hall. The modern tradition of "alternance" need not always apply only to anglophones and francophones. It cannot always ignore the other founding peoples.

The new appointment will not be made until the summer. The government initially was considering astronaut Marc Garneau for the post, but Mr. Garneau is young and his time may still come.

With an aboriginal as governor-general, we will be served with a constant reminder of native issues and issues of the North, where Canada's future lies. Some of the rooms of our history, evoked in Charlotte Gray's The Museum Called Canada, will finally be opened up.

In his LaFontaine-Baldwin lecture, Mr. Erasmus reminded Canadians of the plight of the native peoples. He noted that, in the United Nations quality-of-life index, Canada always rated at or near the top of the countries deemed best to live in. But as for the nations within, the Indian reserves, the story was darkly different. They would place 63rd on the list, Third World status.

"The greatest challenge to the world community in this century," Mr. Erasmus said, "is to promote harmonious relations between peoples of disparate origins, histories, languages and religions who find themselves intermingled in a single state."

It is a challenge that Canadians have to face right in their own backyard. And it is a challenge better met if the forgotten peoples are finally brought to centre stage.

This statement: â ?... in the United Nations quality-of-life index, Canada always rated at or near the top of the countries deemed best to live in. But as for the nations within, the Indian reserves, the story was darkly different. They would place 63rd on the list, Third World status.â ? is what worries, indeed, frightens senior bureaucrats.   Under-classes have rebelled in the past, sometimes (Canada in the '50s and '60s) it has been a quiet revolution, at other times (Detroit, South Central LA, Brixton, Oka etc) the rebellions, though short-lived, have been violent.   Under-classes have little to lose.

I accept that aboriginals are making some progress but a recent Globe and Mail series by columnist Roy MacGregor presented some stunning examples of ongoing failures.   One that sticks in my mind was his note than in one Saskatoon school the graduating class had been nearly 50/50 aboriginal/white when they started in Grade 1 but, by graduation, the ratio was something akin to 2/50, or something like that.   That is a recipe for social unrest, maybe violent social unrest, maybe violent social unrest on a scale that might challenge the Canadian Forces' capability to win, as it must, whenever it is called out in aid of the civil power and, de facto, becomes all that stands between the sovereignty of our elected governments and mob rule.

 

[Wils21]

I have a First Nations women staying in my home at the present.  She is getting social assistance and is at the doctors three times a week(using our healthcare plan).  I told her about the situation with this gentlemen.  She agreed and went one step further and said Im not Canadian this is my land.  Why should we respect someonelse who occupys our land.  My response to this is we came we saw you sold it to us.  If ya got ripped off, sorry but that wasnt me or any one in my family.  So why do I have to pay for you to be on welfare and go to the doctor.  Take away their benefits.  We are all equal we should all the get the same benefits.  If this woman wasnt such a good friend to the family I'd throw her out on her a*s.

 

[Shec]

I accept that aboriginals are making some progress but a recent Globe and Mail series by columnist Roy MacGregor presented some stunning examples of ongoing failures.   One that sticks in my mind was his note than in one Saskatoon school the graduating class had been nearly 50/50 aboriginal/white when they started in Grade 1 but, by graduation, the ratio was something akin to 2/50, or something like that.   That is a recipe for social unrest, maybe violent social unrest, maybe violent social unrest on a scale that might challenge the Canadian Forces' capability to win, as it must, whenever it is called out in aid of the civil power and, de facto, becomes all that stands between the sovereignty of our elected governments and mob rule.

I didn't read the referenced Globe & Mail series.   While focussing on "stunning examples of ongoing failures" did MacGregor mention that the 2001 Census reports that between 1996 & 2001 the number of aboriginal people who graduated from secondary school increased from 27% to 35%?    And did he mention that in the 10 years 1988 - 1998 Aboriginal enrollment in post-secondary educational institutions doubled?  Or did he prefer to concentrate on the negative?    

Of course there are going to be failures.   If there weren't we'd all be living in a perfect world.   Its interesting that the failure cited above happened the same town as the offending school trustee's actions and remarks.    Does that raise any eyebrows?

 

[air533]

.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I didn't read the referenced Globe & Mail series.   While focussing on "stunning examples of ongoing failures" did MacGregor mention that the 2001 Census reports that between 1996 & 2001 the number of aboriginal people who graduated from secondary school increased from 27% to 35%?    And did he mention that in the 10 years 1988 - 1998 Aboriginal enrollment in post-secondary educational institutions doubled?   Or did he prefer to concentrate on the negative?    

Of course there are going to be failures.   If there weren't we'd all be living in a perfect world.   Its interesting that the failure cited above happened the same town as the offending school trustee's actions and remarks.    Does that raise any eyebrows?

I found the MacGregor series, which ran at the very end of 2004, in the Globe and Mail's archives at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041230.SASKATCHEWAN30_COPY/BNStory

I was wrong - poor memory; the school story was from Raymore, a small town, and there were one in six youngsters in the school are aboriginal but there are no aboriginals in the graduating class, not one.

MacGregor cited good news, too - lots of it, but he also found many, many signs of worry and he said, â ?It would be stunningly naïve to suggest Saskatchewan's many woes are now history. It still has the highest murder rate in the country, more than double the country's per capita rate, and the highest rate of alcohol dependency of any province. Its prisons are filled, largely with young aboriginal men. It has problems keeping young people in the province, let alone in school.â ? and â ? It is, of course, a tough challenge. Those stereotypical images -- the drunken Indian, welfare, abuse, tax avoidance -- pour effortlessly in casual conversation out of some of even the most innocent-looking white youths.â ?

If, perhaps, you are part of the DIAND bureaucracy then perhaps you should look up MacGregor's series; it was illuminating and I don't want to overemphasize the bad news aspect except, obviously, to strengthen my thesis that we, Canada and the Canadian Forces, need to be prepared to contain another Oka or two.

 

[Shec]

I don't dispute your thesis - points well taken.  And thanks for the link to MacGregor's series

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Here in BC, many of the bands have settled land claims and been given self government.  Now they are not wailing against how unfair we are treating them, but trying to do the same job, with the same revenue as we were trying to do for them.  Some bands are doing well, and some are robbing themselves blind.  It seems abuse may have more to do with human nature than racial origin.  Again, many native women are experiencing problems with bands following more "traditional" practices, that offer women far less protection than our legally mandated equality.  What is truly amusing (or disturbing) is that the "traditional" practices are often not traditional to that band, and ignore the status that their own heritage did grant to women, especially elders.  Many natives are now moving forward, governing themselves like a cross between a province and municipality, and doing their own people, and Canada, great service.  Other regions are running themselves like banana republics, and further impoverishing their own people.  With self government, the responsibility for protecting themselves from exploitation falls squarely on the bands themselves; it is time they clean their own houses.  While the idiot who spawned this particular forum showed disrespect for his nation, and opened his own people to ridicule, I think it important that we in this forum recall another truth.  Back in the good old days, we could not draft status Indians, and they didn't enjoy many of the rights that we as Canadians both demanded and expected.  This DID NOT STOP LARGE NUMBERS OF NATIVES FROM PROUDLY SERVING OUR NATION IN ALL OF ITS WARS.  Considering the disgraceful conscription riots, and the mass protests of conscript soldiers against being deployed overseas in the Second World War, shows Canada is getting far more out of that 2% of its citizens who are native, than of the (unknown but probably higher number) of non-native Canadians who fought against answering their nations call.  The sight of this Native fool offering disrespect for our flag, anthem, and nation is disgraceful; but we offer a greater disgrace if we fail to acknowledge the great service that many fine Native Canadians have done our flag in the past, and continue to do today.

 

[Good2Golf]

MJT, well stated! 

 

[Bomber]

2 percent of our population is roughly 600 000 people, roughly the size of Ottawa, before the amalgamation.  I am watching a lot of people throw out some pretty harsh comments here like "leave Canada" and stuff like that.  If there was something that you believed in, what would you do to protect or preserve it?  If you believed in the notion of "Canada" would you join the military?  Take a stand for what you believe to be right?  Or would you just sit there, suck it up and ignore your surroundings.  This guy obviously is trying to get a point across, and is succeeding very well at it from all posts this is generating.  Do I believe in what he is doing?  I don't know, I love the flag and this country very much.  Do I want to live in a country that lets him do it?  Yes.  For everyone that is complaining about how "we are paying for what some guys did hundreds of years ago"  Residential schools, the place where young first nations people were taken from their parents, and forced to forget and ignore their heritage, family, language, and traditions, finally ceased operations in 1996.  And it is estimated that there are currently 92 000 living Canadians that attended Residential Schools.  What happens to the students and the population as a whole is called intergenerational impact where entire generations cannot relate to one another.  Parents are reunited with Children that they do not know anymore, but don;t have strong parenting skills because they previously had no kids.  Kids know nothing of their parents and any interest towards their culture, language and heritage has been "punished" out of them.  Instead of telling this guy to get out, we should be looking for a way to make him proud of this nation.  As was stated earlier, there are plenty of reasons to be proud of it, and many First Nations people are proud Canadians and very professional soldiers.  But can anyone else see that there are things to not be proud of, or even to be ashamed of?  The wrong message is now being sent when some young Cadet Sgt is telling this man to leave it if he doesn't love it.
We all walk by the 17 year old drugged out kids wearing torn combat pants and dyed hair, to much make up and facial piercing, wearing Canadian flags as patches on their torn little jackets, looking at you, a proud soldier, as though you have a toaster on your head, or with outright contempt.  This doesn't bother us, because this is their right, and we don't really think anything of it, white trash is what most of us would say.  We sell the flag as underwear in fashion stores, is that not worse than a man asking for respect for his heritage?  This man is trying to draw the publics attention to something that is very important to him.  Maybe a little like what we all do here with our threads of "Tac Vest Crap Vest" and "where did my Tank go".  To sum up a bit of a rant, maybe start a poll next time of support or not, let people stand up for what they believe in, you would expect the same courtesy extended to you.  And don't go to strong about saying how tired you are of dealing with this problem, because reading about people being mistreated, ignored, abused, and marginalized while you drink your large double double is not dealing with anything.  Maybe write him a letter, shock him by telling him that some Canadians care about him and his rights.

Figures cam from http://www.irsr-rqpi.gc.ca/

 

[ZipperHead]

Back in the good old days, we could not draft status Indians, and they didn't enjoy many of the rights that we as Canadians both demanded and expected.  This DID NOT STOP LARGE NUMBERS OF NATIVES FROM PROUDLY SERVING OUR NATION IN ALL OF ITS WARS.  Considering the disgraceful conscription riots, and the mass protests of conscript soldiers against being deployed overseas in the Second World War, shows Canada is getting far more out of that 2% of its citizens who are native, than of the (unknown but probably higher number) of non-native Canadians who fought against answering their nations call

Excellent point MJT. I think that the PPCLI did well to name the drill hall in Wainwright the Tommy Prince Drill Hall. The stories of his exploits (I used one as an example of "thinking outside the box" just yesterday at work) make me proud to be a Canadian soldier. I know a lot of red-necks who say a lot of rude things about Mr Prince, mainly because he was Native, ignoring what he did for Canada, and instead focussing on how he died. The sad fact is that he did a lot for his country, especially the reputation of the PPCLI and natives as a whole, but once he was back in Canada, he was "just another drunk Indian" (as the red-neck's, past and present) state.

Bomber, good post. I think that there are better means of getting a point across, but other than being rude, he didn't do anything worse than many people do nowadays. There are people who disgrace the flag, in the ways stated before (as a patch, as underwear, letting it shred to pieces on the flagpole, etc), and even people who burn it, shit on it, whatever. That get's more attention than what they are protesting, and I guess it is counter-productive, as people remember the act, not the subject of the protest.

Remember: this isn't pre-Saddam Iraq, or Idi Amin's Uganda, where I recall reading a story about a young boy who was caught with money in his shoe, and was beaten for "stepping on" Idi Amin's face (which was on the money). If he has something to protest, that is his right. He may need some assistance in finding a more productive means of showing his displeasure, but as some people are all aflutter over it, maybe it was more effective than even he would have suspected.

Al

 

[Jarnhamar]

Replying more towards the beginning of the thread, there was a native (indian?) girl in my law class in highschool who made a point of not standing for the national anthem.
Furthermore she made a point of telling everyone that she wasn't Canadian or American.  Any chance to get, she would argue. Mind you, she didn't refuse free school supplies (expensive calculator, backpack, pens, binders etc..).

At first that kinda really pissed me off. How dare she not stand for the anthem, how dare she not bla bla bla.  Now I couldn't give two shits. If this guy wants to protest however, more power too him.


"If you don't love it, leave"

fuuuuuuuuuuuck off.
I really get annoyed hearing that. I understand the sentiment BUT i think it should be
"If you don't love it, do something about it"
I hear mean americans commenting on this (not a slam, just observation). So I have to accept things how they are or just leave?
Hell I think the Liberals are right the fuck out of her. Does that mean, if i dont love them (being the current government in canada) i should leave?  No way.  Just a stupid phrase that bugs me.
If someone bitches and complains but doesn't lift a finger to do anything about it their just wasting oxygen.

 

[Canuck_25]

  Residential schools, the place where young first nations people were taken from their parents, and forced to forget and ignore their heritage, family, language, and traditions, finally ceased operations in 1996.   And it is estimated that there are currently 92 000 living Canadians that attended Residential Schools.   What happens to the students and the population as a whole is called intergenerational impact where entire generations cannot relate to one another.   Parents are reunited with Children that they do not know anymore, but don;t have strong parenting skills because they previously had no kids.   Kids know nothing of their parents and any interest towards their culture, language and heritage has been "punished" out of them.   Figures cam from http://www.irsr-rqpi.gc.ca/

Well, bomber, may i ask you where do you live?


Also, i would like to point out that a large amount of native childern were not forced by the goverment to attend the schools, but their parents actaully sent them. Yes, some were forced, but not all. My mother attended one of these residential schools with native and white childern. She or the other students were not beaten, just taught english, math and history. She wasnt wipped, chained, sexaully assaulted and harrassed and neither were the other students. My Grandmother taught at the residential schools on the coast, and none of these alleged incidents occured under her eyes.

Anyone here hear about those British childern (600 of them?) who were taken from their parents and sent to residential schools in Australia after WW2? Those students were sexaully assaulted, beaten and harrassed. They arent on welfair and living in poverty today. After they left the schools, they had no home to return to. The lived in Australia for the rest of their lives, had jobsm, like any ordinary Australian. An example of what bullshit this whole native issue is.

 

[Bomber]

I live in Ottawa.

 

[camochick]

Well, bomber, may i ask you where do you live?


Also, i would like to point out that a large amount of native children were not forced by the government to attend the schools, but their parents actually sent them. Yes, some were forced, but not all. My mother attended one of these residential schools with native and white children. She or the other students were not beaten, just taught English, math and history. She wasnt wipped, chained, sexaully assaulted and harrassed and neither were the other students. My Grandmother taught at the residential schools on the coast, and none of these alleged incidents occured under her eyes.

Anyone here hear about those British childern (600 of them?) who were taken from their parents and sent to residential schools in Australia after WW2? Those students were sexaully assaulted, beaten and harrassed. They arent on welfair and living in poverty today. After they left the schools, they had no home to return to. The lived in Australia for the rest of their lives, had jobsm, like any ordinary Australian. An example of what bullshit this whole native issue is.

Yeah the whole native issue is crap, I mean, whats a couple hundred years of raping of a culture, they should buck up and be like the rest of us, . Who cares that they live in substandard housing on reserves that are considered ghettos without clean water? Hey, why dint we just throw them some money for the rest of their lives, let their bans mismanage that money and say we did our part so what else could we do. :

Yeah of course those 600 children had a hard go of things in that school ( I have never heard of this but i will take your word for it), lots of kids have hard lives and that needs to be addressed too. But the government, no matter how long ago, made a mess of the aboriginal population and so far they have done nothing to correct it.

Not all natives are on welfare. My friend is a native he works more hours than most do and he works hard. But he wont tell people he is native because he can get away with passing for white. Why does he do this? Because he doesn't want people to judge him right off the bat because he is native. We had an interesting discussion the other day about how it seems that racism against natives seems to be an accepted practice in Canada. Not everyone practises it but a some do. Instead of bitching and moaning about how natives get this and natives get that and blah blah blah why dint people do something about it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Who cares that they live in substandard housing on reserves that are considered ghettos without clean water?

Theres PMQs on native reserves?

Yeah the whole native issue is crap, I mean, whats a couple hundred years of raping of a culture, they should buck up and be like the rest of us

You know, there are quite a few cultures and races around the world that have been royally shit on. Yes they should buck it up. They can choose to fight the government for a (half assed) appology about what happened 200 years ago, or they could spend that time and resources on making things better for themselves today and their children tomorrow. If someone lives in the past they are going to stay there.

But he wont tell people he is native because he can get away with passing for white. Why does he do this? Because he doesn't want people to judge him right off the bat because he is native.

If your friend is too ashamed/afraid/concerned to admit his herritage, as a native american, why should anyone else bother to concern themselves over it?

We had an interesting discussion the other day about how it seems that racism against natives seems to be an accepted practice in Canada. Not everyone practises it but a some do.

I don't think it's accepted, thats silly.  There IS racisim towards natives, just like theres racisim towards jews, blacks, whites, chinese, indians, muslims.  When you play the 'who is singled out more' your really dumbing down the argument. Racisim is racisim. I went to a highschool with a high native population.
"Fuk you white boi, i'll shoot you with my AK". I've heard that a few times and reported it to the teachers. You would think making death threats would be taken serious? Nope. They didn't want to use the big R word. They liked to turn things around and in my case, make it seem like it was my fault for being threatened, i didn't reach out to so and so and treat him special. racisim is racisim and harassment is harassment.

Someones culture or a race's past should never be an excuse for how they behave today, period.  Look at the balklands. Your village attacked my village in 1400, you owe me, im going to take revenge on you.  An extreme example I know but i think it's accurate enough.

Get rid of the the band councils.
Get rid of native reserves and any special privilages they get. Treat them like *Canadian or American Citizens*. Give them all the rights and taxes and bennifits and problems that come along with it. 
If they want to be canadian citizens and embrace their past/herritage, just like chinese-canadians, indian-canadians, black-canadians, french-canadians, german-canadians, american-canadians do, then they will. If not they won't.  Make the playing field level and see what happens.