Widely spread misconception - Mixing military inform with civilian clothing -Tee

[underjeep]

Multiple times I have been told I am not allowed to wear my issued green t-shirt as clothing during PT, usually by power hungry staff god bless them.  So whats the deal is it allowed or not, because this is the information I could find.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/38148605/Canadian-Forces-Dress-Instructions-Instructions-Sur-La-Tenue-Des-Forces-Canadiennes
Page 2-1-11    Point 47.
Here's a picture for lazy people - http://i.imgur.com/vVJHr.jpg

They keep saying that it is a chargeable offense, I couldn't find anything saying that it is it in the QR&O's about this though.

I feel like respectfully saying, please try and charge me because I want to know where the rule is when they read out the charge on my parade.
It's a green t-shirt, i can buy one that looks exactly the same and that would make it ok?

Anyways if you guys have any information about this issue please share, because I've only heard just about everyone say its a chargeable offense without backing it up, and yes I'm only referring to the green t-shirt.
Take care everyone.

 

[lethalLemon]

Well, they could charge you under the catch-all charge that is used for anything that's not specifically defined.

A.K.A.

"Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline"

As seen here: http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol5/v5c40de.htm (Not an official CF or DND website, also, these are from Somalia)

RANK:Sgt
CHARGES:

i. Disobeyed a lawful command of a superior officer (83 NDA)
ii. An act to the prejudice of good order and discipline (129NDA)

REASON:
i. A CF member was improperly dressed when he wore a baseball cap contrary to the orders given by his platoon commander.
ii. A CF member mixed a military uniform with civilian clothing by wearing a baseball cap.

VERDICT:
i. Guilty/$250 fine and reprimand.
ii. Dismissed.

LCol J.C.A. Mathieu
111 -- tab 5

Edit to add: But then again, it's a t-shirt, and a green one at that, being used for PT for the purpose of maintaining fitness for service so...  ???

 

[underjeep]

From your example, it's only wrong for me the wear the green t-shirt because they told me to take it off because they think its wrong to wear it.
..... It's only wrong because they told me to take it off so they can charge me under something else, not charging for the actual green t-shirt.  Ridiculous, but everything in the army is so can't complain.

 

[lethalLemon]

From your example, it's only wrong for me the wear the green t-shirt because they told me to take it off because they think its wrong to wear it.
..... It's only wrong because they told me to take it off so they can charge me under something else, not charging for the actual green t-shirt.  Ridiculous, but everything in the army is so can't complain.

Like I said, it's complex. But given that "X" said to remove "Y". You could be charged under 83 NDA for not obeying by "X", but also under 129 NDA because you did not remove "Y".

If that makes sense.

I'm sure that someone with more experience will shed some light on this issue.

 

[q_1966]

What if you were to private purchase a surplus OD t-shirt, and provide said reciept >

A Private purchase OD long sleeve shirt or short sleeve with a maple leaf or Cdn flag etc should be fine.

 

[aesop081]

usually by power hungry staff god bless them. 

Orders that are usually resisted by barrack-room-lawyer privates who think they know better.

Everyone that tells you to do something that you don't like is power hungry.......... :

 

[PMedMoe]

I'm betting what's at issue here is more than just a green t-shirt if you're getting this worried or worked up about it.  Just wear a different t-shirt, FFS.  :

 

[Rheostatic]

Just wear an issued grey t-shirt from Logistik. That's what they're for.

 

[Jimmy_D]

Or get a unit PT shirt.

 

[Wookilar]

Certain schools make it mandatory to wear green shirts, most often mixed with civi shorts/track pants, for unit PT. I see it all the time in the gym, so I can't imagine that in and of itself that wearing a green t-shirt is a chargeable offence. I'm sure the Base and respective school RSM's would be having a parade every day if that was the case cause we all love a good (charge) parade.  ;D

However, I have to agree with above. Regardless if your course staff is power tripping or not, they are course staff, you are on course and have been given and order. It may suck a bit, but seriously? This is what you want to fight? There are far more important things to fight about than the colour of your shirt. ESPECIALLY while on course.

Wook

 

[underjeep]

Like I said, it's complex. But given that "X" said to remove "Y". You could be charged under 83 NDA for not obeying by "X", but also under 129 NDA because you did not remove "Y".

If that makes sense.

I'm sure that someone with more experience will shed some light on this issue.

I'm basically being charged because the staff is misinformed and my reluctance to change a shirt that is acceptable.  Under your baseball cap example. the Sgt should have been charged with both or none otherwise it's teaching you should follow every order even if you think its wrong which can be good or bad under different scenarios (take that trench private!! or kill those innocent civilians private!!)

What If I was properly wearing my uniform and the staff member told me to take off my beret and wear a baseball cap.  Now I can be charged under 83 of the NDA for not changing my beret into a baseball cap, or charged under 129 NDA for changing my beret into a baseball cap.  There's nothing different in the literature except under this example, the only thing preventing me from being charged would be how ridiculous the order is, and I'm saying making someone change out of a green t-shirt is ridiculous as well.

 

[Tow Tripod]

Underjeep is off to a very long career! Fight the Power!

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm basically being charged because the staff is misinformed and my reluctance to change a shirt that is acceptable.  Under your baseball cap example. the Sgt should have been charged with both or none otherwise it's teaching you should follow every order even if you think its wrong which can be good or bad under different scenarios (take that trench private!! or kill those innocent civilians private!!)

What If I was properly wearing my uniform and the staff member told me to take off my beret and wear a baseball cap.  Now I can be charged under 83 of the NDA for not changing my beret into a baseball cap, or charged under 129 NDA for changing my beret into a baseball cap.  There's nothing different in the literature except under this example, the only thing preventing me from being charged would be how ridiculous the order is, and I'm saying making someone change out of a green t-shirt is ridiculous as well.

OK enough. I.... we get it.

The course staff, who have been empowered by the Commanding Officer can do this. Consider it an ORDER from your CO.

Now if I were your Pl WO or CSM and one of my NCOs asked me to have a "chat" with you it would be a very one way conversation...and you'd be doing the listening.

Put on a different T shirt. Do as your ORDERED to. If you don't like taking orders......you know what to do I would think.

Underjeep is off to a very long career! Fight the Power!

Oh this should be a good one! The Man is oppressing him!!  ;D

 

[Wookilar]

I'm basically being charged because the staff is misinformed and my reluctance to change a shirt that is acceptable.  Under your baseball cap example. the Sgt should have been charged with both or none otherwise it's teaching you should follow every order even if you think its wrong which can be good or bad under different scenarios (take that trench private!! or kill those innocent civilians private!!)

What If I was properly wearing my uniform and the staff member told me to take off my beret and wear a baseball cap.  Now I can be charged under 83 of the NDA for not changing my beret into a baseball cap, or charged under 129 NDA for changing my beret into a baseball cap.  There's nothing different in the literature except under this example, the only thing preventing me from being charged would be how ridiculous the order is, and I'm saying making someone change out of a green t-shirt is ridiculous as well.

Umm first off, where the heck to I begin???

You have to learn the difference between an order you do not like and an ILLEGAL order. Ordered to kill unarmed (the term "innocent" can be used in a variety of ways) civilians is illegal. Full stop.

Ordered to change your shirt/hat/mukluks = legal. There may be ramifications for the staff if say, while on winter warfare you were ordered to change your dry mukluks for wet combat boots or something similar, but something like your colour of PT strip is perfectly legal.

You will be instructed/ordered to do a many many "stupid" things in your military career. Learn to roll with the small stuff. This is small stuff.

Wook

 

[Scott]

This is your hill to die on? A frigging t-shirt?

Grow up. Or go work at Burger King...but they likely have uniform rules, too. :nod:

 

[PuckChaser]

Just wear an issued grey t-shirt from Logistik. That's what they're for.

Unless you're on BMQ you can't order them anymore. My unit used to use those as our PT shirt, until they made the change.

The green shirt, probably not gonna stick like the reference someone posted and summary trial results. What will stick is the Disobey a lawful command, which was "You will not wear a green t-shirt for PT". Don't like it? Put in a VR memo.

Underjeep: You mentioned "staff" multiple times. Which means you're probably at a school, and probably a Private. Who is misinformed, the staff who have combined decades of experience in the CF, or your 6 weeks as a barrack room lawyer? Some rules in the CF don't make a whole whack of sense, but when you try to buck against the system, the system bucks back. Seriously, consider picking your battles. Is it worth getting marked as insubordinate over a damn T-shirt because you're too cheap to go to Walmart and buy one for 10 bucks?

 

[jeffb]

I'm basically being charged because the staff is misinformed and my reluctance to change a shirt that is acceptable.  Under your baseball cap example. the Sgt should have been charged with both or none otherwise it's teaching you should follow every order even if you think its wrong which can be good or bad under different scenarios (take that trench private!! or kill those innocent civilians private!!)

It has nothing to do with what you think is wrong. The standard is "manifestly unlawful". Unless an order is manifestly unlawful you are legally bound to carry it out. There are numerous reasons why your staff might have told you to change your T-shirt that are perfect reasonable. Perhaps they wanted everyone to look the same, you know, like a uniform? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to you what their reasons are, the only reason you should need is that you were told to do it and it was not manifestly unlawful.

You are not getting charged because of your t-shirt. I think you missed the boat here. Based on your story, you are getting charged for being insubordinate. Realize that and this may turn into a good lesson for you for what would otherwise be a very short career in the CF.

Best of luck.

 

[underjeep]

Basically what I'm hearing is that the military law is all screwed up but try and get along in this wacky environment because the little guy can't win like he can in civilian courts.

But cmon I know my first point was weak you don't have to go straw man fallacy on it, how about addressing my second point where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Anyways I'm going to make it a point of educating people of power in the future so they don't have to issue ridiculous orders, that's my cause.  How about I get a custom made green t-shirt with point 47 of the Canadian-Forces-Dress-Instructions-Instructions-Sur-La-Tenue-Des-Forces-Canadiennes printed on the back of it?

 

[Scott]

:facepalm:

 

[PuckChaser]

Basically what I'm hearing is that the military law is all screwed up but try and get along in this wacky environment because the little guy can't win like he can in civilian courts.

The little guy can definitely win in military courts, just not when he's completely and utterly wrong. The fact that you can't comprehend that you are required to follow orders unless they are "manifestly unlawful" (as someone stated earlier) means that you just aren't quite cut out for the CF. I'd go ahead and release now, before you land yourself in trouble and are discharged with a not-so-nice release item that may prevent you from getting gainful civilian employment.