Why Did Canada Change Our Salute

[Danjanou]

Yeah, great freakin' idea, Paracowboy.   I flashed a gang sign at my new OC and yelled, "Yo, holmes!"

He fired four rounds at me!!!

How was I supposed to know he was from Toronto???

Lucky for you he received his small arms training in Jane/Finch or Regent Park. Missed all four times right. 8)

 

[DG-41]

How was I supposed to know he was from Toronto???

He missed.

:threat: ;D

DG

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The Act was signed into law in February of 1968, a few months before Trudeau came into power.   So in fact it was a law that came into effect (ie: no more RCN) in the 60's under Pearson.   Of course, 2 months later Trudeau would take over as Prime Minister so the implementation was, as you state, largely executed under his mandate.   However, as Douglas Bland's Chief's of Defence points out, the ideological battles between the military and DND was fought and won by the Unification Crowd in the 60's under Hellyer - the point is that you can't stick all the blame for the CF's problems on Trudeau.

I wasn't sticking any blame on anyone, I was pointing out the perils of calling soldiering in any specific era "the good old days".   The fact remains that to the soldier in the forces in the 1970s, that was when many first started seeing the real effects of unification.   I worked with an air force guy - regular force - who held on to his dress blues until the 1970s until he finally had to give in.   Couldn't care less for purposes of this thread whose idea it was or who argued what when, if you get my drift.   In many ways the 70s was a shitty time to be in the CF compared to today, full stop.   If you were in the RCOC or a reserve infantry regiment, Unification was one of many contributors to that because you wouldn't have seen the direct effects of it yet.   There were good things about it too - postings to Germany, training on the brand new Leopards, but I still say it would be better to be in today's CF than in the 70s.   Or 60s, especially for reservists who had to abandon their raison d'etre altogether.

 

[Infanteer]

Couldn't care less for purposes of this thread whose idea it was or who argued what when, if you get my drift.

I was just picking shit out of the fly-paper and pointing out a minor error in the statement - it's a specialty I learned from a guy named "Michael Dorosh".

 

[hooky]

Sailors traditionally, had stained hands from handling ropes which were tarred etc. (as a form of preservative). Saluting with an open palm showing was ugly to say the least. I was told that we turned our hand inboard so as to present the back which understandably looked better. I notice that the AF and Army however do not do this correctly, if indeed it was taken from the senior service, and not from the yanks. It should be turned slightlyy inwards ( the Lcdr's correct comments notwithstanding) also please notice that sailors wear their decorations higher on the breast than either their ground or airbound bretheren.
I am not inclined to dismiss the orginator's comments out of hand either and suggest that we exercise some caution that we are not throwing out the trappings of one form of colonialsim for another!

 

[onecat]

It also depends on which branch your in.  The 50's and early 60's would of been the best time to be  in the RCN.  We still had carriers that had planes on them, and a  large and strong navy. Of once the cuts starts coming in, mid 60's the navy might be worst branch as it was losing so much so quickly and add to that losing your uniforms and your ranks.. not a happy time.  Air Force wise the 60's and 70's weren't too bad, most the kit was still new C-5's 101's, starfigthers even the herc's and seakings were less than 20's years old.  If your an Air Force guy right now would be the worst time to be in, with less 50 C-18's flying and talk of replacing them with unmanned one's.

 

[RangerRay]

Bring back the old Army salute! 

 

[Armymedic]

I find that someone saying that we use one sort of salute instead of another a form of "Americanization".

Are we (as a Canadian society) that neurotic that we can't have or do anything that even remotely look American? Even when the US actually borrowed the idea from OUR ancestors?

 

[Kirkhill]

As a society Canada is that neurotic.

Hooky has the history of the salute correct. Though there was the additional note that as sailors at sea routinely went bare-headed they had no visors to lift nor hats to doff.  The traditional salute of sailors, farmers and civilians when bare-headed was to "tug the fore-lock" or reach up and grab ahold of your bangs and give a tug.  This gesture, obviously, was done with the palm in, just as lifting visors and hats would be done.  The Navy and the Yanks and virtually the entire western world all salute the same way with variations.

The British Army is the "odd man out" and the RAF, as an outgrowth of the Army's Royal Flying Corps and the Navy's Royal Naval Air Service, inherited the Army salute with the palm outward.

 

[daniel h.]

I find that someone saying that we use one sort of salute instead of another a form of "Americanization".

Are we (as a Canadian society) that neurotic that we can't have or do anything that even remotely look American? Even when the US actually borrowed the idea from OUR ancestors?

The U.S. also borrowed the imperial system of inches, miles and gallons from Britain. Ironic that under Trudeau Canada abandoned this while the U.S. still has the imperial measurements.....We can thank the E.U. socialists in Brussels for that I guess.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The U.S. also borrowed the imperial system of inches, miles and gallons from Britain. Ironic that under Trudeau Canada abandoned this while the U.S. still has the imperial measurements.....We can thank the E.U. socialists in Brussels for that I guess.

Considering most of the world has gone to the metric system I don't see your point....I grew up when they were making the switch and I think metric makes more sense.

 

[George Wallace]

The U.S. also borrowed the imperial system of inches, miles and gallons from Britain. Ironic that under Trudeau Canada abandoned this while the U.S. still has the imperial measurements.....We can thank the E.U. socialists in Brussels for that I guess.

In Name only.  An Imperial Gal. is larger than a US Gal.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

 

[sweeney]

Hello

Sorry for this basic question but people with a little knowledge are the worst. If you know nothing you aren't interested and if you know if all....you know it all and don't need to ask! I'm from over the water (UK) but love Canada. People were friendly. My Grandfather served in the RAF during WW2 at Moose Jaw and Swift Current and spoke of the lovely locals so I feel as if I'm almost an honourary Canadian! Finally to my question which is perhaps a little dull. I wonder why Canadian soldiers salute in the "USA" way. I know that although Canada is a proud independent nation some ill-informed people from abroad say the country is the same as the USA (nothing wrong with the USA either!). It seems that some of things that differentiate Canada from the US are those that are permanent constitutional/legal and inherited from the UK and France rather than the transient popular cultural matters which to be frank are very similar to the USA. To ill-informed Brits (me!) the accent, the cars etc are the same but you do notice the U in colour, the fact that officially you have leftenant (not lootenant) governors although I suspect most people say lootenant, subtle crowns and not big eagles on crests etc etc.

Sorry this has become a real epic. back to the question. I know the military was merged in the 60's and that it wasn't popular. Then the distinction was partially put back. Why didn't they bring back the much loved RCN/RCAF name and why don't soldiers salute as they used to with the open palm?

Thanks all.

Thanks!

 

[Kirkhill]

Hi sweeney, (or is that Todd)

Welcome aboard.

As you might gather from the thread that your topic has been attached to this has been the subject of previous discussion. 

The short answer is this:

With unification a decision had to be made as to how to salute.  Tarry hand in to hide the dirt (Royal Navy fashion) or open hand out to prove there were no concealed weapons and that the saluter had washed recently (Army fashion).  I am not sure which way the RAF salute they seem to just wave in the general direction of their caps.  Our commanders opted to reduce the requirement for washing by adopting the RN/RCN salute. 

No need has been found to change that recently.

Cheers

 

[Michael Dorosh]

the fact that officially you have leftenant (not lootenant) governors although I suspect most people say lootenant,

I suspect your suspicions are wrong, in this case, at least among those in the know here. I'll add my welcome as well.

 

[Spencer100]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/03/27/the-curious-history-of-the-salute/

In the National Post.

I did learn something from the comment section, that the CF at the time 1967 adopted the palm down salute or navy salute because the of the navy's senior service.

It is all so true that "Royal" Regiments were the ones that salute palm front?

 

[Spencer100]

Oh I see they threw the Navy...ops Maritime Command a bone by making everyone else use their salute and then put them in "green"

 

[Eland2]

Hello

Sorry for this basic question but people with a little knowledge are the worst. If you know nothing you aren't interested and if you know if all....you know it all and don't need to ask! I'm from over the water (UK) but love Canada. People were friendly. My Grandfather served in the RAF during WW2 at Moose Jaw and Swift Current and spoke of the lovely locals so I feel as if I'm almost an honourary Canadian! Finally to my question which is perhaps a little dull. I wonder why Canadian soldiers salute in the "USA" way. I know that although Canada is a proud independent nation some ill-informed people from abroad say the country is the same as the USA (nothing wrong with the USA either!). It seems that some of things that differentiate Canada from the US are those that are permanent constitutional/legal and inherited from the UK and France rather than the transient popular cultural matters which to be frank are very similar to the USA. To ill-informed Brits (me!) the accent, the cars etc are the same but you do notice the U in colour, the fact that officially you have leftenant (not lootenant) governors although I suspect most people say lootenant, subtle crowns and not big eagles on crests etc etc.

Sorry this has become a real epic. back to the question. I know the military was merged in the 60's and that it wasn't popular. Then the distinction was partially put back. Why didn't they bring back the much loved RCN/RCAF name and why don't soldiers salute as they used to with the open palm?

Thanks all.

Thanks!

As others have noted, the current method of saluting is the Navy salute. I sometimes wonder if the salute was changed not because the RCN was the senior service, but to placate Quebecers, who might have seen the former open-palm salute as 'too British' for their liking.

Canadians would today probably be speaking with something like a British accent if it hadn't been for all the United Empire Loyalists fleeing the United States during the Revolutionary War and taking over the educational system in Canada and teaching Canadian children to speak with an American accent, and use American spelling and grammatical conventions.

The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation produced a documentary on this very subject. It's called Talking Canadian, and you can see it on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIoTpkM5N64 As you'll see in the documentary, the British exported many people to Canada in an effort to stop the spreading Americanization of Canadian culture, an effort that proved to be somewhat unsuccessful.

With the exceptions of the accents heard in Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and New Brunswick to a lesser extent, the standard Canadian accent does sound a lot like a standard American accent. But if you stay in Canada for a while, and listen carefully, you will find there are differences between Canadian and American accents. Yes, they're subtle, but they are there. If anything, a standard Canadian accent will tend to sound fairly neutral and uninflected, devoid of regional influences, and this is one reason why major US TV networks have tended to hire Canadian news anchors and reporters in the past.

 

[Canuck_Jock]

As an addendum to the forgoing debate on the saluting tradition, the palm down version is properly titled the 'Naval salute' and the palm forward version the 'Military salute'. The former is a sloppy karate chop-style movement to the head, the latter a smart military drill movement indicating respect to the recipient.

The Naval salute is generally used by the likes of the yanks, Greeks, Turks, Russians, etc. and a lot of other random countries with whom we have absolutely no historical connection with whatsoever. As a rule, it looks a bit goofy and tends to be used by armies that also think white shoe laces on black combat boots looks smart, but that is just my humble opinion...

The Military salute is retained by almost all Commonwealth armies and air forces and is indicative of the continuity of the British military ethos. It is also employed, interestingly, by the French armed forces, and by random individuals who wish to look smart (e.g. the late Yasser Arafat of the PLO).

There is certainly strong evidence that unification had 'kultur-kampf' against overt British traditions as a strong, secondary objective. The change of salute for the Cdn Army and RCAF is proof. The RCN (as with many other Commonwealth navies) had drill that was distinct than the other Services; it largely involved shuffling the leg around and not raising it off the ground (not a bad thing on a moving ship), different timings as well as the command 'Ho!' in lieu of 'Atten-sha!' Army drill was adopted for all Services with the exception of just one, single drill movement...the Military salute. Hmmm, what a coincidence.