Who killed the Canadian Military?

[KevinB]

I made it a point to read while the Battalion was being bussed from Edmonton to Camp Ripley Minnesotta...  Hmm no useful training area in Canada or failing that planes to get us to one...

Good read, a little depressing but true to a fault.

 

[ghazise]

A Better Book to read is the DISARMING OF CANADA, it goes much more indepth about the entire history of the Canadian Forces, to explain the traditions of the Regimental System in the Army and our relations with the US and British military throughout the history of the forces and addresses the same topics of WHO KILLED THE CANADIAN MILITARY, I thought WHO KILLED THE CANADIAN MILITARY  just lacked in content and only addressed the events at a superficial level,

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I met paul hellyer about 2 years ago. very interesting man. I had a very in depth discussion with him on the current status of the canadian military. now he may of been talking like a true politician (ie. out of his rear) but he said he was disgusted at the state of how the military is. who knows, maybe he really meant it.
Greg

Integration of the forces was a great idea, unfortunately, by the time it was promulgated, it turned into unification and was implemented very poorly.  There is a good book out there about the office of the CDS (this was introduced at the same time as Unification) that goes into great detail about Unification and the military after 1967.  I'll try and find the title if anyone is interested, I borrowed it from the U of C library a few months back.  I think Hellyer's heart was in the right place.

Oh, and for those geniuses in the other thread hooting and hollering about how all cabinet ministers "need" military experience, guess what - Hellyer had been in the RCAF during WW II.  Some people feel his inability to get into the trade of his choice was what coloured his perception of the Forces and caused so much irrepairable harm post-Unification.

 

[Infanteer]

I think Granatstein kept the book quite light in order to appeal to his intended audience, the uneducated public.  He had no reason to write a book on "who killed the Canadian Military" full of technical stuff and detailed studies for soldiers as we are for the most part keenly aware of our own problems and issues.

 

[Danjanou]

I see your point Infanteer re KISS so the masses will actually pick it up at the local Chapters and Indigo. Considering it's made the bestseller list IIRC I guess it worked.

Hasek's book is a little more technical but I still recomend it. A bit dated now as he wrote it in 1987, but he actually used a several historical precedents for the gutting of our military, and even offered possible solutions.

His credentials are pretty good to. Former Infantry officer with 30 years in and overseas tours in Ghana, Cyprus and Vietnam and he topped out as a Major, which suggests he must have pissed off some one at NDHQ.

 

[Ian_M]

Michael do you mind getting the title of the book as well as the name of the person who wrote it? I think I'm going to order that book next since I'm interested in learning more about the CF after unification.

 

[logau]

Hellyer has an excellent book called DAMN THE TORPEDOES and he goes into how the Brass didn't want what he wanted....and the rest is history

He touches briefly on the the NUCLEAR WARHEADS we had at our disposal to be launched from Cdn Arty, Air and Sea forces. A lot of fish would come up with those kinds of CIL wobblers!

All will enjoy the   book.

If you really want to get a birds eye view of the sludge in the Ottawa SWAMP - get this book No Surrender by Hugh Segal - he was a high up assistant to Premier Bill Davis and was Mulroney's Chief of Staff. He lays it out that the culprit is the long term bureaucrats. If DND gets more $ then other depts get less $.

Nothing a massive firing (I didn't say squad) - purge wouldn't solve. Segal suggests they should fire these weeners and put up with six months of turmoil.

Previous to the election I heard from a guy I see at my course (did I say I work at NDHQ???   :threat:   ) and he said they have to fire down to the full Col line - so you could extend that across the civil service.

Not in our life times says you!  

 

[LowRider]

I always thought it was Trudeau.

 

Trudeau just finished off what Dief the thief started!

 

[HCA]

Great read. Bought it and finished it the same day. I gave me an appetite for further readings in this area.

 

[Quinn]

The 60's:

Vietnam, Trudeau, the hippies, the apparent de-escalation of the Soviet threat, the growing need for domestic programs, all combined to "kill" the CAF.

Chretien, being a Trudeauite, simply carried on in that tradition.

 

[sean m]

Hello

Has anyone read the book, "Who Killed the Canadian Military" by J L Granstein. It is a good book? is it accurate?  Do you believe that the canadian forces have improved, what is the main priority for the canadian forces now?

 

[George Wallace]

sean m

You wouldn't wear out your fingertips so much if you would learn how to do some research (ie. use the SEARCH function).

 

[SeanNewman]

...what is the main priority for the Canadian Forces now?

Afghanistan.  Perhaps you've heard about it on the news.

 

[sean m]

I am really sry for this honestly, I did try the search functio and didnt see anything relating to the book, I am so sry everyone

 

[SeanNewman]

As per the rules of the website, can you please get away from the MSM/text messaging script?

As in please write out "sorry" so everyone knows what you're talking about.

There are certain short forms that you may see on here or in military writing that are approved short forms, such as the rank of Sgt or RCR instead of writing out The Royal Canadian Regiment, but typically things like lol, omg, etc are frowned upon as most of us are older than 12 here.

 

[mariomike]

As per the rules of the website, can you please get away from the MSM/text messaging script?

As in please write out "sorry" so everyone knows what you're talking about.

There are certain short forms that you may see on here or in military writing that are approved short forms, such as the rank of Sgt or RCR instead of writing out The Royal Canadian Regiment, but typically things like lol, omg, etc are frowned upon as most of us are older than 12 here.

I ran what you said through the translator.
"This translator will take what you write in it and turn it into the manner a 12-year-old AOLer would write it.":
http://ssshotaru.homestead.com/files/aolertranslator.html

AS P3R DA RULAS OF TEH WABSIET CAN U PLZ GET AWAY FROM DA MSM/T3XT M3SAGNG SCRIPT

AS???!?! OMG WTF LOL IN PLZ WRIET OUT SORY SO AVERYONE KNOWS WUT UR TOKNG ABOUT

THERE!1!1!11! OMG WTF R CERTANE SHORT FORMS TAHT U MAY SE ON HERE OR IN MILITARY WRITNG TAHT R APROV3D SHORT FORMS SUCH AS DA RANK OF SGT OR RCR INSTEAD OF WRITNG OUT TEH ROYAL CANADIAN R3GIEMNT BUT TYPICALY THNGS LIEK LOL OMG ATC R FROWNED UPON AS MOST OF US R OLDAR THAN 12 HER3
!1!1!! WTF LOL

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I am really sry for this honestly, I did try the search functio and didnt see anything relating to the book, I am so sry everyone

Well I am sorry that you continue to disregard direction in using MSN speak. If I see one more example of msn speak in your posts, you will get the enxt warning level.keep it up after that and your Banned. Pay attention to detail, you will need that skill should you ever go Intelligence or HUMINT.

Milnet.Ca Staff

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Notwithstanding sean m's inability to read backwards through this very thread, lets answer his question.

Yes, it is a good book. Is it  accurate? It is not a scholar's research paper, it is an essay. The factual basis is reasonably accurate, but the essay includes a lot of the author's opinion, which should not be dismissed too easily in view of his credentials. So overall, a good read and an educational one.

Other possibilities of interest:

(1) The Disarming of Canada, by John Hasek: A little dated on some aspect. Much more thoroughly researched than Granastein's book. It is a combination history, politics and military studies all wrapped in one, with the author advocating the adoption of a centralized "General Staff", continental europe style to re-establish a proper profession of arms in Canada and to counteract the civil service power with the politicians. (This way, someone who knows what she is talking about could explain to politicians that a Stryker is NOT a main battle tank or that you do not try to put an amphibious assault force onboard a floating bomb called an AOR, juts my personal beefs here though - not Hasek's).

(2) Understanding Canadian Defence (the 2003 edition), Desmond Morton: A fascinating work looking at the historical political aspects that shaped the defence plans  and armed forces of Canada. This one is a must read for anyone who wants to figure why Canadian politicians behave as they do towards the defence issues and the military, even while we are at war in Afghanistan. And,

(3) anything by Gwynne Dyer, just for the shear enjoyment of reading on world events from a very Canadian perspective.

Bon reading! 

 

[SeanNewman]

Like a lot of his books, he goes into a bit of a (quite accurate) tangent about how stupid (my choice of words, to paraphrase his) a lot of Canadians are for being so anti-American.