Whither Our Warriors-The Lowering of Standards

[RCA]

From personal experience I know that the the QL2/3s in Shilo get good training. They do do the ruck march and PT is part of the program every morning. They are CBed for the first month or so and dipline is tight. In the end WATC turns out a good "product" (God I hate that term). This is because theeris a dedicated staff in Shilo who follow TP and a standards cell that enforces standards. I also don‘t think it hurts that we are all in the same Regiment and maybe this is a factor.

 

[Travis Silcox]

Shilo sounds cool

There telling me wainright, i‘m not sure if it‘s the same thing, but either way it should be alot of fun.

DUCIMUS
Pte. Silcox

 

[PatrickM]

Holy thread resurrection batman!
This is what happens when you decide to work your way through the topics starting at the back I guess.  However I don't want to start a new topic because the argument is current and opinions are valid.  However, this topic is 3 1/2 yrs old, and enough time has passed to examine if there have been changes in the system (for better or for worse).
My personal opinion is that physical standards (especially in the Reserves, but not limited to them) are too low, and fail to develop a soldier's fitness to the point where he is fit enough to get the job done in adverse conditions.  For example, I'm in the militia myself.  I've been on BMQ/SQ, DP1 Arty, DP2 Arty Tech, plus comms/dvr whl.  I have NEVER been required to complete the BFT.  Nor has PT  been evaluated on any course I have been on(N/A on all assessments).  This isn't to say we don't do the 45 min in the morning of PT, but it doesn't matter if you fall out or can't do it well.  My next course will hopefully be PLQ at some point, where I have recently found out that in the modular format, inspections only occur for certain mods, the rest of the time it's not important.  I'm not saying I love to receive c#@k, but I certainly expected plenty of it on a leadership course.  On all my previous courses, the pass rate has ranged from 90 - 100%, which I feel is too high, especially for basic courses.  I am limited to my own exp since I haven't taught any courses, but I would submit that if that is the case for the majority of basic courses then our training practices desperately need to be re-evaluated, regardless of the political needs placed on recruiting.

Cheers.

 

[Gunner]

Geez, I was pretty mouthy back then.  Sometimes these threads should stay in the graveyard.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Whither 2 Charlie?

 

[GO!!!]

The training standards have fallen in recent years. The quantifiable elements are well documented in this thread, and most of the commentators seem to agree on the major points.

Perhaps more emphasis should be placed upon the units to train fit soldiers?

3VP uses the Coopers test  - not a perfect test, but better than nothing. It is useful because you can track the progress of an individual over a length of time against a set standard and his peers. If the individual is not progressing, maybe he just needs to work in the Canteen unitil the end of his contract. No official action, just a discreet retasking. If he is progressing, good on ya, keep it up!

It is a matter of pride and discipline. The unit can enforce PT standards if the leadership has the requisite "parts", as long as there is a carrot and stick, and as long as the units training is sufficiently demanding that the troops worry about getting too out of shape.

I've done the BFT 3 times in a week and never had a problem (well, my feet hurt) It really needs to be more challenging. More weight over a longer distance would do the trick.

As for "PT not being everything" well, that sounds like something the troops in PAT platoon spew. PT is the foundation of everything we do in the Infantry. The best shot in the world is useless if he passed out on the way to the battle! I've seen it on deployments where the "heavy" CSS types go down first with everything from twisted ankles to sore throats. The unfit are sickened and injured faster than the fit.

Comments welcome.

 

[Marty]

CSS ?

 

[tomahawk6]

The US Marine Corps of all the services have avoided the PC trap. They have kept segregated BCT. This is something that the US Army needs to go back to [for non-combat arms soldiers].

 

[GO!!!]

CSS = Combat Service Support

Wogs to some of us, pogues to Americans and REMFs to all - get the picture?

Not to hammer the svc bn guys too much, but really, is there a PT standard for the non - cbt arms? Some of the people walking around edmonton make me wonder...

 

[Gunner]

Whither 2 Charlie?

He was well before your time, youngster  .  He was pretty disruptive at times IIRC otherwise I would have been so forceful with him.  Everyone knows I'm the nice moderator!  ;D

 

[Pte. Bloggins]

Hasn't this horse died enough times on so many other threads?

 

[COBRA-6]

Not to hammer the svc bn guys too much, but really, is there a PT standard for the non - cbt arms? Some of the people walking around edmonton make me wonder...

come to Ottawa... some mbrs here double as anti-terrorism vehicle barriers...

I agree the BFT isn't challenging enough... more weight, longer distance and some hills are all good ideas...

 

[devil39]

Different strokes for different folks.  For most of the Army the 13 km might cut it.

Dismounted or Light Infantry should pass the 32 km rucksack march (55 lbs) in 6.5 hours, just like the old days in 1 CMBG. 

If you want to equate physical fitness and readiness with a quantifiable standard....

32 km in 6.5 hrs in Canada is not unlike 8 km at 9,500 feet in the mountains of Afghanistan.

Our current standard of 13 km is way too low.. thankfully all professionals train above that.

 

[TCBF]

I was walking from C/S 4 back out to my Coyote at SW OP and there was part of 3VP with rucks on getting ready to emplane on some US Chinooks.  Who do I walk past but Ernie ______, the Mortar WO,almost as old as me, with a ruck the size of James Bay on his back, and 81mm ammo strapped to it.

I wished him good luck, and thought, "Man, the young'uns better not pack it in before HE does."

Tom

 

[devil39]

I was walking from C/S 4 back out to my Coyote at SW OP and there was part of 3VP with rucks on getting ready to emplane on some US Chinooks.   Who do I walk past but Ernie ______, the Mortar WO,almost as old as me, with a ruck the size of James Bay on his back, and 81mm ammo strapped to it.

I wished him good luck, and thought, "Man, the young'uns better not pack it in before HE does."

Tom

Exactly. 

 

[spenco]

Maybe I'm showing my age (or lack thereof) but who is James Bay?

 

[COBRA-6]

Jame's Bay separates Ontario and Quebec in the North... it's Hudson's Bay's wang...

 

[spenco]

Ah ok now I feel stupid.  I was thinking that it was a really old fat celebrity or something.  Shoulda remembered my geography.  :blotto:

 

[spenco]

Our current standard of 13 km is way too low.. thankfully all professionals train above that.

I thought that 13 km was the training standard for BMQ,  but infantry regiments had their own standards that were higher than that.  Is this what you are referring to?

 

[GO!!!]

Unfortunately, the term "standard" is batted around a little too freely.

Technically, if you can march 13km with 55lbs in 2hrs26min20sec. you have achieved the standard. Numbers might be a little off.

However, your CO/OC/Pl Comd can make you do whatever the hell he wants, and this often makes the standard seem laughable. There is no higher standard as far as the official "rules" are concerned for infantry though.

Realistically though, your reg force infantry unit will demand far more of you than the BFT and CF Express test.