War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]
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exercist said:
I don't know how you arriving at your conclusions.....but all Canadian Viet Nam Vets all fought for a foreign armed force. Viet Nam never was a Canadian Conflict, even though 30,000 Canadian served in foreign forces that fought over there. The only time the CF was represented in Viet Nam was as UN members at the end of the conflict.
You lack of profile lends you NO credibility, so if you do not know what you are talking about....stay in your lane.
A couple of points:
First, my initial post simply noted an anomaly in the War Museum's policy on "Canadians in foreign wars" - one got in, the other didn't. Any comment?
Second, any remarks about My Lai do not reflect on the overwhelming majority of US service personnel who have fought honourably in Vietnam and in other conflicts before and since. My remarks about Abu Graib, Guantanamo and repugnant regimes stand.
Finally, I am perfectly comfortable in this lane, thank you.
First, my initial post simply noted an anomaly in the War Museum's policy on "Canadians in foreign wars" - one got in, the other didn't. Any comment?
Second, any remarks about My Lai do not reflect on the overwhelming majority of US service personnel who have fought honourably in Vietnam and in other conflicts before and since. My remarks about Abu Graib, Guantanamo and repugnant regimes stand.
Finally, I am perfectly comfortable in this lane, thank you.
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The anomaly of not recognizing one's nasty little secrets is not exclusive to the US.
Japan still does not recognize what it did in WW2 as being wrong & doesn't really understand why someone would drop an A Bomb on them....
Russia / Soviet Union never really acknowledged wrong in the invasion of Poland in the early days of WW2, the occupation of Czeckoslovakia, Hungary, etc, etc, etc.....
So to point to the US and saying "bad dog" without doing so to the others is based on biased values IMHO
I should also point out that the US is more or less the only world super power left standing. Whenever the feces hits the fan, we all turn to them & ask, what are you going to do about this mess?... is it OK to roundly criticize them immediately after they have acted upon "our" requests?
Japan still does not recognize what it did in WW2 as being wrong & doesn't really understand why someone would drop an A Bomb on them....
Russia / Soviet Union never really acknowledged wrong in the invasion of Poland in the early days of WW2, the occupation of Czeckoslovakia, Hungary, etc, etc, etc.....
So to point to the US and saying "bad dog" without doing so to the others is based on biased values IMHO
I should also point out that the US is more or less the only world super power left standing. Whenever the feces hits the fan, we all turn to them & ask, what are you going to do about this mess?... is it OK to roundly criticize them immediately after they have acted upon "our" requests?
Please review the previous posts. The issue was raised in the context of whether Canada should place its dirty little secrets in museums or quietly forget about them. My Lai was mentioned - and nobody ever claimed that the US was alone in having blots on its historical escutcheon. Let us indeed take a moment to condemn the evil, whether institutionalized or otherwise, that led to Auschwitz, the Katyn Forest, the Burma Railway, My Lai and Belet Huen.
I do however not recall Canada asking the US to invade Iraq, or indeed endorsing the claims about weapons of mass destruction that have, I think, been generally demonstrated to have been false. As the annual number of dead Iraqis (estimated conservatively) begins to exceed the number killed by Saddam Hussein (estimated liberally), I think it is fair to question an illegal war, prosecuted badly.
Finally, that the US is the "only superpower left standing" does not exonerate anything. The image of a benign global policeman doing the right thing for the world despite continued vilification wears a bit thin. If the town policeman was the best-paid guy in town, owned much of the local business, applied the law with favoritism, and at the end of the day argued that he was above the law, the town might well wonder. Policing, like soldiering, requires an abandonment of self-interest.
The United States has been, and has an amazing ability to be a force of good in the world, as a result of its many positive attributes. Does anyone see that happening right now?
I do however not recall Canada asking the US to invade Iraq, or indeed endorsing the claims about weapons of mass destruction that have, I think, been generally demonstrated to have been false. As the annual number of dead Iraqis (estimated conservatively) begins to exceed the number killed by Saddam Hussein (estimated liberally), I think it is fair to question an illegal war, prosecuted badly.
Finally, that the US is the "only superpower left standing" does not exonerate anything. The image of a benign global policeman doing the right thing for the world despite continued vilification wears a bit thin. If the town policeman was the best-paid guy in town, owned much of the local business, applied the law with favoritism, and at the end of the day argued that he was above the law, the town might well wonder. Policing, like soldiering, requires an abandonment of self-interest.
The United States has been, and has an amazing ability to be a force of good in the world, as a result of its many positive attributes. Does anyone see that happening right now?
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exercist said:
Excuse me did you just compare Belet Huen to Auschwitz, the Katyn Forest and the Burma Railway?
Man that’s a stretch even for the "Troops Out" Birkenstock brigade regulars that occasional infest this place with their post and run trolling, care to elaborate. On second thought don't bother I've reached my quota of self righteous drivel for the day. :
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exercist said:
Well, I'm not a Topic Wrangler, so sticking with that then:
The Somalia Incident had only a limited impact on Canada and Canadians. Even the course of Canada's efforts in Somalia probably wasn't affected. There is little to learn from the incident that we didn't already know. Its comparison to other Canadian military events is insignificant. The Somalia Incident is a form of Tabloid History: there are some shocking photos and a political dust-up about documents - that's all.
The scale and connectedness of the atrocity should dictate how it is displayed. Knowing about the Somalia Incident, or not, will not change anything about Canada, and very little in the CF (in the CF you would probably see an effort made to not recreate similar conditions).
There was the other issue you brought up:
exercist said:
My opinion, as mentioned before, Canadians joining the US army and serving in Vietnam are a part of American military history. Canadians joining
Each of the incidents referred to above differs in scale and character. I did not compare them, I merely included them in the same sentence. (Each would meet the criteria of the Rome Treaty regarding war crimes/crimes against humanity - they have that much in common.)
Given the fallout of Belet Huen, it is hard to argue that it was not a historically significant event. Whether or not one agrees with the actions taken by the government (and I do not), it perhaps merits objective mention in any museum chronicalling our recent military history. We use the term "strategic corporal" - Clayton Matchee et al would seem to fit the bill, albeit in a rather negative way. I go back to the argument that a museum may interpret history from more than one perspective, and our War Museum should be able to include the good and the bad.
On which, the tragedy of Belet Huen (apart from the loss of life etc.) was that it distracted atention from a relatively successful UN mandate (measuring effects against objectives), as well as a good example of inter-service cooperation or "jointness" in a period when our doctrine was not strong on that sort of thing. The success of this should undoubtedly be recorded.
And my feet are in boots, not Birkenstocks.
Given the fallout of Belet Huen, it is hard to argue that it was not a historically significant event. Whether or not one agrees with the actions taken by the government (and I do not), it perhaps merits objective mention in any museum chronicalling our recent military history. We use the term "strategic corporal" - Clayton Matchee et al would seem to fit the bill, albeit in a rather negative way. I go back to the argument that a museum may interpret history from more than one perspective, and our War Museum should be able to include the good and the bad.
On which, the tragedy of Belet Huen (apart from the loss of life etc.) was that it distracted atention from a relatively successful UN mandate (measuring effects against objectives), as well as a good example of inter-service cooperation or "jointness" in a period when our doctrine was not strong on that sort of thing. The success of this should undoubtedly be recorded.
And my feet are in boots, not Birkenstocks.
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Chop said:
Chop you should not feel that way...I just recently visited that museum with my family and of course this was one of the last things we saw during our visit. I didn't see it as shaming the Airbourne Regiment . My actual first thought was " Damn, I have forgotten about that " I guess my point is....I never forget the Airbourne, as so many of you still wear your t-shirts, and sweatshirts with pride, and so you should. Who I forgot was Clayton Matchee and Kyle Browne and their cowardliness.
Not going to to war museum is a personal choice...One of which I hope you someday will change...Especially if you have children. I think it would bea shame for them to miss out on such history as well as you.
PetawawaMama
- Reaction score
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It'll be interesting to see what art comes out of this proposed study of another facet of war (edited to clarify subject line that she doesn't appear to be painting the wounded themselves).
Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.
A brush with war's horror
EARL McRAE, Ottawa Sun, 15 Feb 07
Article Link - [http://www.karenbailey.ca/|Karen Bailey's web page, including some of her work]
Three floors up the creaky, wide, wooden staircase of the old and long-closed school, the wintry northern light flooding through her studio windows, the artist works surrounded by her paintings, waiting every day for the news that part of her hopes she won't hear.
"I know it does sound macabre," she says about waiting for the significant incident -- as they metaphorically put it to her -- but she knows, too, it's a possible reality, and as an artist it speaks to her soul, as an artist it's what she would want to do, so she watches the TV, and she listens to the radio, and she reads the papers, she awaits the news.
"They told me to keep my bags packed," she says, pouring a cup of coffee. "I have clearance to fly out right away. They're paying all my expenses."
Ottawa's Karen Bailey.
At 46, one of this country's finest painters, and soon to join -- if the news comes -- the honourable list of those who, down through the past century, preceded her when Canada answered the highest call. Karen Bailey, War Painter. Karen Bailey who, at 46, has never been with soldiers in combat, has never seen a soldier wounded, a soldier maimed, a soldier dying. Nor painted any. Karen Bailey who is ready to go at any time.
But it won't be to Afghanistan, it won't be to the Canadian theatre of war.
The military would not provide the liability insurance for a civilian painter. It will be, should it happen, to where the wounded, the maimed, the brave Canadian soldiers are taken, to where they either survive or die, to where Canadian doctors and nurses await them. It will be to the giant American military hospital at Landstuhl, Germany.
"I'll be there at least a week. I'll take photographs and make sketches, not only focusing on the soldiers, but the doctors and nurses, the medical personnel. I'm also interested in the behind-the-scenes people, the caterers, those who provide and prepare the food. They're important, too. People have to eat.
"This is not like where you have somebody coming into your studio for the purpose of letting you paint them. It can't be that. Nor do you have that time. I'm hoping to be allowed to be in an operating room. But this is about trying to be a fly on the wall. I'll complete the paintings after I get home."
When she heard through the artists' community that the Department of National Defence was looking for artists, for war painters, she applied -- her body of work, her credentials, so impressive that she got the job. Her style is somewhat impressionistic, but all her own. "I prefer to call it Bailey's Way," she says with a laugh. Her paintings range in price from $500 to $4,000. Much of her wide-ranging subject matter is displayed on her website.
She's been painting full-time for 25 years, an honours graduate of the Reigate School of Art and Design in England. She's illustrated numerous books, both at home and abroad. Twice she's received the acclaimed Elizabeth Greenshields Grant for drawing and painting. She was artist-in-residence at the private girls' school Elmwood from 2003 to 2005. She was the designer of the portraits on former governor-general Adrienne Clarkson's medal of academic excellence.
Undoubtedly, for Karen Bailey, War Painter, it could be an emotional experience at Landstuhl, but she is honoured to have been chosen.
"I want people to look at the paintings and understand the military experience, the emotion of it. It's about capturing emotion. It will be left to me, it will be how I myself see and feel it as an artist."
Should -- as she waits day by day listening, watching, reading -- the "significant incident" come.
Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.
A brush with war's horror
EARL McRAE, Ottawa Sun, 15 Feb 07
Article Link - [http://www.karenbailey.ca/|Karen Bailey's web page, including some of her work]
Three floors up the creaky, wide, wooden staircase of the old and long-closed school, the wintry northern light flooding through her studio windows, the artist works surrounded by her paintings, waiting every day for the news that part of her hopes she won't hear.
"I know it does sound macabre," she says about waiting for the significant incident -- as they metaphorically put it to her -- but she knows, too, it's a possible reality, and as an artist it speaks to her soul, as an artist it's what she would want to do, so she watches the TV, and she listens to the radio, and she reads the papers, she awaits the news.
"They told me to keep my bags packed," she says, pouring a cup of coffee. "I have clearance to fly out right away. They're paying all my expenses."
Ottawa's Karen Bailey.
At 46, one of this country's finest painters, and soon to join -- if the news comes -- the honourable list of those who, down through the past century, preceded her when Canada answered the highest call. Karen Bailey, War Painter. Karen Bailey who, at 46, has never been with soldiers in combat, has never seen a soldier wounded, a soldier maimed, a soldier dying. Nor painted any. Karen Bailey who is ready to go at any time.
But it won't be to Afghanistan, it won't be to the Canadian theatre of war.
The military would not provide the liability insurance for a civilian painter. It will be, should it happen, to where the wounded, the maimed, the brave Canadian soldiers are taken, to where they either survive or die, to where Canadian doctors and nurses await them. It will be to the giant American military hospital at Landstuhl, Germany.
"I'll be there at least a week. I'll take photographs and make sketches, not only focusing on the soldiers, but the doctors and nurses, the medical personnel. I'm also interested in the behind-the-scenes people, the caterers, those who provide and prepare the food. They're important, too. People have to eat.
"This is not like where you have somebody coming into your studio for the purpose of letting you paint them. It can't be that. Nor do you have that time. I'm hoping to be allowed to be in an operating room. But this is about trying to be a fly on the wall. I'll complete the paintings after I get home."
When she heard through the artists' community that the Department of National Defence was looking for artists, for war painters, she applied -- her body of work, her credentials, so impressive that she got the job. Her style is somewhat impressionistic, but all her own. "I prefer to call it Bailey's Way," she says with a laugh. Her paintings range in price from $500 to $4,000. Much of her wide-ranging subject matter is displayed on her website.
She's been painting full-time for 25 years, an honours graduate of the Reigate School of Art and Design in England. She's illustrated numerous books, both at home and abroad. Twice she's received the acclaimed Elizabeth Greenshields Grant for drawing and painting. She was artist-in-residence at the private girls' school Elmwood from 2003 to 2005. She was the designer of the portraits on former governor-general Adrienne Clarkson's medal of academic excellence.
Undoubtedly, for Karen Bailey, War Painter, it could be an emotional experience at Landstuhl, but she is honoured to have been chosen.
"I want people to look at the paintings and understand the military experience, the emotion of it. It's about capturing emotion. It will be left to me, it will be how I myself see and feel it as an artist."
Should -- as she waits day by day listening, watching, reading -- the "significant incident" come.
- Reaction score
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I'll certainly be interested to see what comes out of it, but I'm a little perturbed that DND isn't letting our war artists into theater...isn't that the point of war artists? Park their easels in an FOB, and paint away?
I know we've got our image techs out and about (not enough, we're still seeing Kestersen's (sp?) video as the only CTV TFA video clip) but what about the other mediums? I've been awed by some of Canada's war art, lets make sure Afghanistan is represented in the same body of work.
DF
I know we've got our image techs out and about (not enough, we're still seeing Kestersen's (sp?) video as the only CTV TFA video clip) but what about the other mediums? I've been awed by some of Canada's war art, lets make sure Afghanistan is represented in the same body of work.
DF
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TFA Roto 0 hired a War Artist, commissioning 4 large pieces and 8 small pieces. Three artists competed, and Ms Gertrude Kearns was chosen (her work hangs in the War Museum, including some slightly controversial pieces on Cpl Matchee and Pte Brown). She spent 4 or 4 weeks in theatre.
The results are stunning - I have been involved in the project from the beginning, and discussed and viewed the 4 pieces in her studio in Toronto throughout the process.
War artists are an important part odf the countries military and artistic heritage - and one that we must not forget. The insurance problem was solved by offering enough renumeration that the artist could purchase their own policy.
The results are stunning - I have been involved in the project from the beginning, and discussed and viewed the 4 pieces in her studio in Toronto throughout the process.
War artists are an important part odf the countries military and artistic heritage - and one that we must not forget. The insurance problem was solved by offering enough renumeration that the artist could purchase their own policy.
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ParaMedTech said:
The green-eyed liability monster - I'm guessing she wouldn't be able to get her own insurance, and if the CF doesn't want to cover her, not too many more options....
Gotta wonder, though (minor tangent), how the university anthropologist who studied the "Grunts in the Mist" in AFG was covered? If she was untrained, but with the troops, couldn't an artist be covered in some way?
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I had heard of Ms Kearn's work, through members here. I wonder what the shift was between Roto 0 and Roto 3(?). Salary alone?
There was a recent MSM piece on a physician who wanted to work in KAF, and was surprised to discover he couldn't get insurance. Same issue? Is insurance simply not avail to Canadian with the CF? Who underwrites the contracted support staff in theater?
DF
There was a recent MSM piece on a physician who wanted to work in KAF, and was surprised to discover he couldn't get insurance. Same issue? Is insurance simply not avail to Canadian with the CF? Who underwrites the contracted support staff in theater?
DF
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ParaMedTech said:
Believe me they are just as perturbed. My kid brother is in the same boat. Has been pleading with DND for over two years now. Given that he is the only Canadian artist to make it into Taschen's The Polaroid Book and has had his work grace the walls of the National. I just tell him he has not starved enough yet and still has both ears attached.
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This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act, is from today’s Globe and Mail:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070219.wxafghan19/BNStory/Entertainment/home
It will a month or more before I’m back in Ottawa and have an opportunity to see this exhibit.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070219.wxafghan19/BNStory/Entertainment/home
It will a month or more before I’m back in Ottawa and have an opportunity to see this exhibit.
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