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War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

Sussex11

Quote

"The 2 Somalia paintings are not featured--they are simply there with 350 other paintings. The overall theme of the exhibits is the brutality of war and the way ordinary Canadians made extraordinary contributions in the most difficult of times. In my view, that's the only interpretation possible if you have toured the place."

I must say that I am among those who have not toured the new CWM but as a Canadian Veteran I believe that I can comment on the content that has been to the fore in the National Press.

You say that the 2 Somalia pictures are not featured but just part of a display of 350 pictures, why have we not heard about the other
pictures on display?

Can you explain what the picture of Cpl McKay is supposed to represent?

I am rather old fashioned and prefer the paintings of Canadian Soldiers doing their job not the aberrant behavior of a pair of misfits.
 
It is an honor and a privilege to have you aboard and to have the pleasure to meet you again, all be it in an electronic forum.

No, I have not visited the new museum, you are right.  As a veteran, as Art stated, I trust the judgment of my fellow compatriots.  I for one am upset in the fact that two paintings are displayed regarding a very despicable part of our history.  I am not an art critic, but please explain why we need to see an artist's rendition of a photograph done in a new medium (literally a copy) and some sort of far out abstract painting of the other culprit??  What is next, a portrait of Maj. Harry Schmidt pressing the trigger on the laser guided bomb? Or, how about a nice painting of Maj.William Umbach juggling four balls representing the souls of the fallen.

I could go on about how I feel, but the many pages of this thread exemplifies that.  I will one day bring my family to see the museum, which includes the iltis I was in, but I feel uncomfortable showing them alternative displays which cast a negative shadow on the commitment I have provided for my Country.

Yes we need to be vocal to inhibit change.  I feel that using these forums, I am making a change. Heck you have even discovered us! Therefore I hope that those that in the position of decision will do the same.

Please don't feel that I have vented on you, look at it as my passion about who we are as soldiers who have served our nation.

Do surf around and read some of our other forums, you will enjoy the craic here!!  All that I ask is that you don't ask questions that have already been discussed and to remember the spell check button before you post. Hehe.


Dileas Gu Brath

John Tescione
 
I have not visited the new War Museum, but my associates and I have undertaken business plans
and feasibility studies focused on several Museums in Canada, and we know the bureaucratic
system which is responsible for the various facilities in Canada very well. Most of the bureaucrats
in Heritage Canada, for instance are hard working, dedicated professionals; some are not. They
have in most instances however a very limited knowledge of Canadian history, particularly Canadian
military history. When we became aware that the Canadian Museum of Civilization was to be the
responsible agency for the new Canadian War Museum, we were appalled. The former War Museum
in Ottawa was neglected and growing out of it's mediocre quarters, and eventually the political will
was found to create a new building. We are taliking about ideas and concepts. Our concern is that
the Canadian War Museum will become the Canadian Peace Museum. In order to ensure a positive
view of our military history, the story must be focused. We do not recommend that DND or DVA
have any financial input into the resource, but a change in the management structure is imperative
- if we were writing a business plan for the facility, we would recommend that control of the
Museum be in the hands of a not-for-profit Crown Corporation, and funded by both private sector
and public sector resources. One of the reasons that it took decades to create a new home for
the military museum, is the lack of a process to solicit private sector investment. We should insist
that the Board be comprised of individuals from the various veteran's organizations, and persons
and organizations with a sincere and ongoing dedication to preserve our military heritage. Despite
what bureaucrats in the CMC are indicating, change is on the horizon. A letter from Mr. Clifford
Chadderton appears in todays issue of the Toronto Sun, there will be many more. MacLeod
 
First, there have been dozens of hugely positive articles on the new CWM in national newspapers and magazines. If you've not seen them, you couldn't have been looking.
  Second the Cdn Museum of Civiln Corp is already an independent, not-for-profit Crown Corporation and there is in place at CMC and CWM a fundraising program. CWM's, led by General Paul Manson working for a decade as a full-time volunteer, raised more than $16 million from private sources for the new building, a sine qua non as far as the govt was concerned for financing it. The decades it took to get a new museum was because the govt would not pay--until it decided to do so in 2000-01. And if the govt would not commit, the private sector would not contribute. Third, once more, CMC was a benign master that was only helpful. If CWM is cut loose, it will die, It's that simple.
  Finally I can't find Chadderrton's letter in today's paper but he has been consistently wrong in his public comments of late. He complained--and some in this thread repeated--that the purchase of the Somalia paintings had not been approved by the CWM Advisory Council. I'm the chair of that Committee and Chadderton/his rep is on it. (So are reps from the Legion and ANAFV.) He knows that's not the job of the Council; nor is it the job of the CWM Committee, a CMC board committee.The Board of Trustees of CMC includes General Manson who commands huge respect on it (and from me); the rest are appointed from across the country.  It was a wholly benign and helpful influence.
  One of the Somalia paintings was purchased by the Friends of CWM; the other, as I understand it, was donated by the artist. The decision to include them in the exhibits was  made by the historical team and curators whose overall plan is OK'd by management and board. Again, Chadderton hasn't been to the new museum, but obviously he didn't pay attention to process when he was at the Advisory Council.
  Why are the Brown/Matchee painting up? Because Somalia happened. Because the paintings are powerful. Because one of the purposes of a historical museum is to jar and shock viewers out of their preconceptions and get them thinking. Again, they're not displayed to leap out at viewers and to be front and centre. Go and see where they are--be shocked, be jarred, re-think! Go see this splendid museum that, once again, conveys a powerful and positive message about the forces through our history, including the last 10 yrs.
 
Everything in the Sussex 11 post is substantillay correct, and we are well aware of how the CWM
was financed - we have experience in funding the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum in Mount
Hope ON, and HMCS Sackville a Town class corvette from World War II. Sussex 11 is missing the
point - the paintings that have upset Chadderton and Worthington should not be on display, what
should be displayed is the Presidential Unit Citation the CAR earned in Somalia. My associates and I
are concerned with ideas formulated by the visiting public to the facility - many if not most of
the populace knowing nothing about Canadian military history. It is clear to us that there is an agenda
to have the public believe that war is unthinkable, and only "bad things happen in war" - the CWM
mandate however is to focus and preserve our highly commendable military past. There is no question
about this when you climb the gangplank to visit HMCS Sackville or the famed CWHF Museum in
Mount Hope. We have a genuine "military museum" facility in Halifax NS which remains a functioning
CF resource; Royal Artillery Park and the Cambridge Library, (the first such library in British North
America). Three years ago, as the plan current in DND focused on closure of 5 CF Bases in Canada
several bureaucrats in Ottawa decided to sell off RAP through Canada Lands Company - they forgot
to check the concept out with the old, long established political families in Halifax - result, plan
vanished. There was also a plan to shut down 12 Wing Shearwater and turn it into a housing
development - local political pressure stopped that, and now 12 Wing has a 50 year life plan. If the
CWM does not have a major Veteran's presence on it's board, its mandate will be slowily and surely
changed. And just who in Canada will benefit from that? MacLeod
 
The last time I looked, General Manson was a veteran. So am I and so are many others associated with CWM, including the leadership of the Friends of CWM.
  You can argue that the 2 Somalia paintings shouldn't be up. They'll likely change in 6 mths and then there'll be something else to take exception to. It's a matter of not seeing the trees for the forest which, again, is a peculiarly Cdn trait.
  The key is an informed, interested public thast is prepared to argue--not vs 2 paintings--but for military history to be treated as central in the nation's past and present, To me, CWM gives a boost to our understanding of the military and it can only be helpful.  That is if some don't bite off their nose to spite their face by attacking CMC, its board, the govt etc, etc. Be realistic--we have something wonderful here and we ought to treasure it.
 
Sussex,
I have not been yet, so I will not comment on the pictures untill then.
I agree it happened, however a nagging little voice in me says "did it need to be opening time when all the press was there?"    
OK, I lied, just a small comment. :-[

The thing that really stuck in my craw was the VD plaque in Korea thing. I understand its been removed but if what you say is true about the members of the board, how in Gods name could anyone who put on a uniform even think for a moment that this fact should be posted ANYWHERE?
The fact it was posted does lessen the credbility of the museum, in my opinion.
 
I guess the question is if the VD statistic was true or not. It was. And it wasn't a plaque--merely a statistic in a list of stats. A museum is not supposed to be a place that only lists "nice" things or that simply presents kit, badges etc. It interprets. It shocks and jars and changes the way we think of events. However, I'd have preferred to say that the CEF had the highest rate of VD in WWI among the Dominions and UK troops, adding that it didn't seem to affect its efficiency.
 
 
The Halifax Citadel Museum is one of the best, albeit small Military Museums anywhere, under the
control of Heritage Canada. It features an expensive highly detailed diaorama of an attack on the
Citadel Fortress, by post civil war Union troops. The troops wear the uniform of the Irish Brigade
formed in New York, Boston and later Philadelphia, over 8,000 of whom were killed during the
War. Some 10,000 Nova Scotians served on both sides in the US Civil War, many Irish immigrants
like mine served in the Irish Brigade. But none of the troops shown in the diaorama attacked
the Halifax Fortress - the Ottawa based bureaucrats confused the efforts of the Finian Brotherhood
to seize Canada, focused on raids in Ontario, Quebec and the New Brunswick Border. The Irish
Brotherhood, evolved from the Finian Society supported and assisted Louis Riel during his tenure in
the US - but the deciptiion of a non existant event which is an insult to many American visitors
to Halifax, particulary from the Irish Catholic families in Boston and New York is inexcusable. When this
was pointed out to the Director of Guides in the facility, she practically had a temper tantrum. When
we communicated this to Heritage Minister Copps, she was quite concerned and changes were recommended. As far as the CWM is concerned, the same type of nonsense will occur. I do not
know much about Canadian traits - my family came to Nova Scotia from Ireland in 1819, served in
all the wars, were among the founders of the NS Liberal Party, but I guess we have'nt assimilated
yet. Maybe CWM can create a diaorama showing the execution of Canadian soldiers for "cowardice"
in World War I, or a stirring description of the Zombies of World War II, and their VD rates. MacLeod
 
I'm not sure what the last point is. No one supports mythical history and CWM doesn't show it. But I do believe that mention of executions in WW! would be useful; so too would something on WW2 conscripts. History happened--and museum directors/planners do no one any good by creating myths or not showing truths. Moreover, if I read the post right, the Minister (politician) intervened to correct the museum bureaucrat. Jeesh!
  But the serious point is that there will be political interference in the CWM if it is allowed to happen. Everyone who wrote an MP to complain about Matchee-Brown paintings should realize what they're encouraging.
 
I cannot understand how a diaorama, (an expensive diaorama) of an event that never occured
could under any circumstance be justified in a Museum's budget. The new Canadian War Museum
is going to evolve into something not intended as it matures, and the Veteran's of World War II
and Korea pass on. It will become a haven for what will be an anti military message. The facility
should focus on a simple, straightforward message - Canada's military history, which is not a
popular subject in many areas of the Canada - in fact virtually unknown to many Canadian citizens
- the story must be told is a very straightforward way, no hidden agendas, no "messages" no
anti this or that bias. The political process will be the catylst of changing the CWM to reflect on
the real story of Canada in the military experience - should there be a section devoted to the
famous sit down strike in 6 Bomber Group RCAF UK? should the potential mutiny of the crew
of HMCS Ontario be a point of discussion? Ironically, with the notable exception of the Canada's
National Aviation Museum, the best facilities are those in the private sector, which are not motivated
by political correctness, or some bureaucrats preception of the Canadian military. Make no mistake
without dedicated political support, these facilities funded in the public sector will not survive. MacLeod
 
Quote,
Make no mistake
without dedicated political support, these facilities funded in the public sector will not survive.

....now that is the one thing this museum seems to have, I don't get where you are going here......
 
Ok - I've been to the Museum. I thought the pictures were in poor taste. I frankly don't care why they are there. They represent a time in Canada when the politicians failed the military again. Gee - let's punish a whole regiment for the actions (reprehensible as they were) of a few. I thought that was not doctrine, and I seem to recall the government of the day actually saying they would not punish the many for the actions of a few. Hmph. Guess again.

To go with Sussex's points we should have representations of shootings at dawn of suspected traitors and deserters, shameful acts of prisoner abuse from WW2, retaliations against Germans for their prisoner abuses, a couple of Korean collatorally killed civilians, reported CanBAT issues, Hey - what about the NorthWest Rebellion, Metis killings, et cetera, et cetera... Why pick on this particular shameful act? Are we rubbing the military's nose in the dirt to teach them a lesson? "Bad army, bad army. Naughty soldiers..."

The military and a lot of vets seem to think so. Whether one has altruistic motives and wishes to show Canadian history "warts and all", doesn't abrogate the fact that we, a fair number of vets, feel slighted. It seems to me to be a bit patronising (and perhaps even intellectually arrogant) to dismiss this as "They'll likely change in 6 months and then there'll be something else to take exception to. It's a matter of not seeing the trees for the forest which, again, is a peculiarly Cdn trait". That seems to belittle the real feeling of the other side. An attack doesn't dismiss the fact that there are true feelings on both sides.

You say "The key is an informed, interested public thast is prepared to argue--not vs 2 paintings--but for military history to be treated as central in the nation's past and present, To me, CWM gives a boost to our understanding of the military and it can only be helpful"

I posit that the CWM, the media, and the attention to shameful acts  does not raise an informed and interested public. Military History is not treated as central in the nation's past and present when the media and public sees these acts. We do not laud the enough the proud histories of the Canadian Military. I agree with Sussex here. Where we part company is when he defends keeping these paintings which are a sore point to veterans (yes, veterans), and in the eyes of the media, politicans, citizens, et cetera, draws attention from Military History writ large.

Why can't the board of the CWM merely remove the paintings, it has been asked? Seems to me the two sides are entrenched and invested in their positions. The vets feeling poorly treated and humiliated, and the CWM feeling that to change would reduce their impartiality. The one side invested in humiliation, and the other afraid to be seen to knuckling under to pressure.

As for the warning "Everyone who wrote an MP to complain about Matchee-Brown paintings should realize what they're encouraging." I wrote. I know what I said, and what I was encouraging. I was encouraging my MPs, and duly elected representatives to review a situation about which I feel passionately. They don't have to take action. I, frankly, do not expect action. They are my representatives because they were elected to represent me in their best judgement. I don't expect my MP to "poll" (I know, it's not a verb!) me everytime she has a decision to make - I chose her because she has good judgement, and I am prepared to live with the consequences.

Frankly, as soon as the "fourth estate" got involved in the controversy on opening day, Mr. Sussex11, there became, de facto, if not de jure, political interference in the CWM. Any institution which purports to send a message to Canadians will inevitably be used by our political masters to send their message. Period.

Cheers
 
FWIW: To me, the paintings symbolize several turning points in Canadian military history, not the least of which is the defeat of Canada's most elite conventional fighting unit by fire teams of lawyers and certain egoist journalists.  

Without question, the army was forced to not only clean out the trouble makers, it also had to be seen to be cleaning house in order to restore public faith in the institution.   While the various actions of the government of the day were dastardly opportunistic, such underhandedness is certainly not without general precedence in the history of the country- it was the form of delivery and gleefulness in execution that made it so   different.

The critical difference between past political assassinations of 'things military' and what these paintings symbolize is that men like Hillier have now risen to the top and ostensibly posses the influence to change things for the good of the county, whereas before the military retreated further into itself. Certainly, that alone is of enough historical significance to justify the existence, but not the prominence, of the paintings.  

That being said, John Q public isn't going to draw those sorts of conclusions without a little help from sources like this board. As usual, an even larger impediment is sure to be organized disinformation or calculated mal-information on the part of certain elements of academia and mass media.* In other words, the effects of those murders may be felt for some time to come.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue.

Sussex11 ... welcome aboard sir.      

* Upon my taking of a " pause .. 2 .. 3" for edit, I will add that there is a linkage between what I am stating here and this statement made earlier today:

"But the serious point is that there will be political interference in the CWM if it is allowed to happen. Everyone who wrote an MP to complain about Matchee-Brown paintings should realize what they're encouraging. "

 
   
 
Quote from sussex11

"one of the purposes of a historical museum is to jar and shock viewers out of their preconceptions and get them thinking. Again"

Quote from Canadian War Museum Web Site

"Mission is to Educate, Preserve, and Remember"

It would appear to me that sussex11 thoughts and the Mission Statement of the CWM do not agree. I have not been able to find anywhere a statement from the CWM that indicates that their Mission is to "jar and shock the viewer"

The more that I read from sussex11 makes me wonder if he and his ilk are part of the problem not the solution.
 
I made the point earlier in this thread, but I will repeat here.  I do think that we still hear a lot of references to Somalia - being told this is the "post-Somalia" Army, for example, or reading books about the CF post Somalia - TARNISHED BRASS, SIGNIFICANT INCIDENT, or WHO KILLED THE CANADIAN MILITARY.

It was a defining event - a negative event, as the Holocaust was. 

I hope that no one thinks it should not be mentioned at all in the CWM.

However, I do think that it needs to be put into a proper context - and am reasonably sure the paintings failed to provide that on their own.
 
Will people walk away from this museum knowing more about Kap'yong, Ortona, or Passchendaele?  Or will they just know that Somalis were murdered on the Airborne's watch and that lots of Korean vets had the drip?
 
Infanteer said:
Will people walk away from this museum knowing more about Kap'yong, Ortona, or Passchendaele?  Or will they just know that Somalis were murdered on the Airborne's watch and that lots of Korean vets had the drip?

Does it matter, though - doesn't it matter that they want to go out and learn more, by reading books and talking to veterans and finding out for themselves?  Shouldn't the museum be a starting point?  And not the end-all?
 
My associates and I spent much time in many Museums in the UK, US and Germany. The reason we
undertook this activity was to determine funding processes for a number of private sector Museums
in Canada. We discovered a great deal of significant information about how Museums operate. Our
main focus was the UK, since we were engaged in the promotion of the EH101 "Merlin" helicopter
to the CF. We met the senior executive officers on many facilities, but learned most about the
Museums, such as the RN Fleet Air Arm Museum, HMS Yeovilton from the museum guides. It has
always been of interest to me as a Canadian, that the RNFAA exhibit devoted to the late LT(P)
Robert Hampton Gray VC, RCNVR is far more detailed and much more significant than anything in his
memory in Canada - why is that? the reason we found is that there was, and is little interest in
Canada's military past (and present) in the offices of Federal MP's, due to the fact that Canadian
military history is virtually ignored in the Canadian education system. In England, the guides, most
if not all former members of the UK Forces provided a wealth of knowledge, particularly anecdotes
about the facilities, the politics of finding money for them, interservice rivialries in solicting funds,and
a host of valuable information. No public funded Museum in Canada however can operate without
political support focused on Treasury Board, and tax credits for the private sector contributors. The
Board of any Crown Corporation in Canada is chosen by the familier patronage route (as they are in
the UK, and certainly to a lesser degree in the US) - The politicians don't like to deal with people
who, for whatever reason are hostile to them, so their "friends" are selected. Ms Penny Collenette
used to be a selector for PM Chretien (what ever happened to Collenette). With some minor exceptions
the guides (the direct one on one link with the public) in Canadian Public Museums are not chosen for
their knowledge of Canadian military history, and although most are pleasant, charming young women
for instance, spiel off a message about a particular exhibit or painting or artifact, written by some
Museum bureaucrat (In the Quebec Fortress, Ancienne Lorette, Major Paul Triquet's VC was referred
to as "a foreign medal"). Profound ignorance is the standard. I am going to conclude my participation
in this thread, but will continue to press for change, to ensure the CWM does not become a "Peace
Museum" MacLeod
 
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