War Criminal Demonstration

[MissMolsonIndy]

Hmm...   I think I cleared that up in my last post...   However, weren't you trying to carry a juxtaposition by stating "Have you spoken to the families of the innocent civilians who have died as a result of the war? Try it. Ask what their living conditions are like under the occupation of American forces."   The impression I get from that is you denounce the war using the same flawed logic that you say I used in "attempting to justify the entire concept of the war"...

On a side note, I would have *LOVED* to be in a polysci class with you...   I can see the heated discussions already.  

What I presented to you was by no means logic, in fact, it was to show you that your statement could have easily been flipped around, and it still would have constituted unreasonable grounds upon which to base an argument. Civilian casualties are an unfortunate product of war, and have been throughout history.

What I'm getting at is this: you can't use the suffering of a population to justify further oppression.

Torlyn: I keep my debates relatively civil, haha, but if you wanna giv'er one night over a few drinks, I'm game.

 

[Torlyn]

What I'm getting at is this: you can't use the suffering of a population to justify further oppression.

Very true, you can't justify futher oppression through the suffering of a population...  I think where this gets touchy is the varying opinions people have on whether or not the current American occupation of Iraq and the allied occupation of Afghanistan constitutes oppression.  However, that's more of an opinion thing, and doesn't have much to do with this thread. 

whiskey 601 Did bring up an interesting point...  We've hijacked this thread quite nicely.    However, I do think we got a few relevant things discussed...  ;D

T

 

[winchable]

There is a thread already opened for discussing the war in Iraq I believe,
If not, feel free to start another just make sure there isn't one already open as far as this thread is concerned...

They're doing the same thing in Halifax though it seems they've decided Bush is guilty already, so I don't see the point behind the trial.
Plans are to cuff "Him" and take "him to the US consulate at Purdy's Wharf.
Personally (and this is a personal opinon and you're all welcome to it) modern protestings attempts to rekindle the furour and justness of older protests and revolutions lacks the genuine feeling behind the movements.
I'm for change, for progression, for revolutions but they are useless vehicles that do nothing more than stop traffic if the people involved do not give themselves to their cause and believe in it truly and deeply.
For most I have met (and it is a significant number believe me) their version of change, progression and revolution involves getting blazed and screaming at any old white man who comes out of a government building.

I have encountered too many Nike wearing, Gap Rocking protestors at Dalhousie (Infanteer has a good anecdote about one too I believe) who have tried to convince me that exploitation of oil producing countries and the war in Iraq is wrong.
For every few who truly give their hearts and minds to it (which I respect) there are hundreds more who jump on the bandwagon faster than Tampa Bay fans did last year....

As for the war criminal trial...The organisers have convicted Bush already as I see it, which kind of ruins the ending for me, so I think I'll pass.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Missmolsonindy.......bad netiquette to change the wording after someone responds to the question, shame,shame. :-[

 

[Cloud Cover]

MMI, that's a crock and you know it. As I see things, a post advocating protests against a visiting foreign leader was broadcast to the public on this site. Have you ever seen that on this site before?  

Right away, the topic is assailed from the other side of the spectrum, and without characterizing the substance of all of the posts, the thread goes down hill right from the start. Instead of ignoring the thread, you weigh in and literally throw gas on the fire by posting into the thread. I am going to suggest to you that you had other options. One of those options might have been to open a new thread on the efficacy of such political demonstrations. But, by failing or omitting to do so, you either (1) recklessly cast your lot into the thread, and thereby created the appearance of supporting an objectionable post, or (2) were wilfully blind of the resulting appearance of your post ,  even if you personally don't advocate the sort of things which SP did.  It was not until my last post that the appearance was put to rest, so thank you. That does not detract from the quality of the discourse that has subsequently arisen between you and Torlyn, which by the way is excellent.  

And, I know that you are aware of the alternative options, because I've seen you select the ground upon which you choose to stand, and this particular thread is beyond being out of character for you.

Cheers.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>It is difficult to ever fully comprehend the insurmountable violence and oppression inflicted upon the Iraqi poulace under Saddam Hussein. In making that statement, however, are you trying to justify U.S. actions through the vicious actions of another state?

Short lesson in the roles of diplomacy and war as foreign policy levers in matters of concern for humanitarian crises.

(Diplomatic phase begins.)
One or more concerned nations to Dictator: "Treat your people better."
Dictator: "Make me."
(Sanctions, embargoes, resolutions, name-calling, entreaties, etc.)
Dictator: "Is that all you got?"
(Diplomatic phase ends. Two choices: make Dictator comply, or leave people to their fate.  Pick one.)


Any questions?

 

[MissMolsonIndy]

Missmolsonindy.......bad netiquette to change the wording after someone responds to the question, shame,shame. :-[

I'm sorry, Bruce, I didn't do it on purpose.

I edited my post several times over, and only noticed after I had saved it that a response followed.

 

[Storm]

I like your logic.   While we're at it, let's go talk to the people of Europe and ask them what their living conditions were like while that evil alliance of allys was fighting the good and benevolent Nazi's.   Clearly we should have stayed out of WW2, look how much damage we caused by fighting!

Damn, you beat me to it.   ;D


As for the concern of using a board such as this to mention demonstrations, I don't see that as being out of line, provided it's done in a civil manner. Advising of a legal protest and encouraging those who believe in it's statement to participate is no different than encouraging someone to write to their MP, or to the local paper. All those actions are legal methods of expressing your opinion last time I checked. Is this the best place to advertise a protest about Iraq? Definitely not, but it's not out of line either.

 

[muskrat89]

Advising of a legal protest and encouraging those who believe in it's statement to participate is no different than encouraging someone to write to their MP, or to the local paper. All those actions are legal methods of expressing your opinion last time I checked. Is this the best place to advertise a protest about Iraq? Definitely not, but it's not out of line either.

I have issue with people who come here to debate politics, and little else. This is Army.ca - a site for military people, ex-military people, and those interested in joining or simply supporting the military. The Politics forums are here, on this military-oriented site, as a service to people who already "belong" here (for lack of a better term). For people with little to offer to military discussions, that like to debate politics, why don't you go to political sites???

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Belong", eh?

 

[muskrat89]

As I said - not the best term, but the best one I could think of 

 

[Slim]

I don't think that using this forum to recruit for an anti-Bush protest is correct...Regardless of personal feelings on the matter. As soldiers (and ex soldiers) we are, to a degree, bound to be loyal to the Country and her govt. (even if they don't deserve it most of the time).

Preaching civil disobedience is not loyalty and the majority of protesters don't really understand the issue and don't really know the truth of the matter to begin with anyway.

Shawn

If you persist on recruiting here in this thread (or the forum in general) I will request that the mods lock this and any subsequent threads you make. And I'm sure I won't be alone in doing that.

Slim

 

[Storm]

Sorry Muskrat, I apologize for my error. I had been under the impression that the political forum existed for open discussion of politics between people of various political beliefs. Thank you for clarifying that they actually exist for us to pat ourselves on the back for the fact that our opinions are so infallable, free from the bothersome arguments of those who believe otherwise. :

Sarcasm aside, I also think the whole premise of the anti-Bush protest is silly, and that soliciting support here is a waste of effort. However, based on the quality of discussion often found on these forums I would expect some well aimed arguments in opposition to this rather than "you're being dumb, you don't belong here, now go away"

I have issue with people who come here to debate politics, and little else. This is Army.ca - a site for military people, ex-military people, and those interested in joining or simply supporting the military. The Politics forums are here, on this military-oriented site, as a service to people who already "belong" here (for lack of a better term). For people with little to offer to military discussions, that like to debate politics, why don't you go to political sites???

The person who initiated this thread, according to their profile (which is reasonably informative, indicating that this is not a one-topic troll), is in army cadets. I doubt he would be in cadets if he didn't have at least some interest in the military, and I don't see how you can say he doesn't "belong" here given the involvement of the CF with the cadet program. I must say I'm disappointed in your dismissive attitude.

 

[camochick]

Just Advertising and supporting

Demonstration against George Bush

U.S. President George W. Bush will be in Canada, November 30, 2004
Demonstrations against Bush will be held across the country, on the grounds that he is a war criminal and is responsible for 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq and that he and his administration are in continuing violation of Geneva Convention accords by holding prisoners in torture like conditions at Guantanamo bay.

In Salmon Arm There will be a demonstration on Tuesday Nov. 30 from 12:15 to 12:45 at Alexander St. and TCH

If you belive that Bush is a war criminal
Find out if its happening in your town and show up, or organize one to protest it

I really dont see where this guy is preaching. I mean he says that "if you believe bush is a war criminal". NO where in this post does this person go off about how everyone should go to this protest. This person is just informing people of what is going on. These protest have the potentila to be a big issue on the 30th. Are we not allowed to talk about anything slightly controversial on here. It seems like there is alot of censorship and people getting threatened with being banned and such. Are these forums not to voice ones opinion on things. I agree that an army forum is not the best place for this, but it seems like there is alot of silencing of certain people around here, and this place is turning into some sort of elitist club.

 

[muskrat89]

There are members who come here and rarely step outside of the political forum. That is what I have issue with. This isn't politics.ca That was my point.

 

[muskrat89]

It seems like there is alot of censorship and people getting threatened with being banned and such. Are these forums not to voice ones opinion on things. I agree that an army forum is not the best place for this, but it seems like there is alot of silencing of certain people around here, and this place is turning into some sort of elitist club.

Examples, please?


???

 

[camochick]

Do I really have to go through all the forums and find places where people say things like, i will ifnorm someone of this, or that. All I am saying is that I dont think this guy was wrong in posting this becayse he is not promoting this, he just posted something about a protest. He never said anyone should attend. If you want me to go through all th post i will  :-*

 

[Storm]

It seems like there is alot of censorship and people getting threatened with being banned and such. Are these forums not to voice ones opinion on things. I agree that an army forum is not the best place for this, but it seems like there is alot of silencing of certain people around here, and this place is turning into some sort of elitist club.

I don't follow. If cersorship was running rampant, I'd be gone by now for disagreeing with one of the all-powerful mods. People who troll and bring down the level of debate here are dealt with swiftly and appropriately from what I've seen. There is a fair warning system that is used before anyone is banned. While there may be an initial warning here or there that may seem questionable to you, I highly doubt anyone who doesn't truly deserve it will get the boot.

Remember that, in the end, these forums are owned privately by an individual, who gets to set the rules and hand pick mods to help him run things. It just happens that in this dictatorship the dictator is good.

 

[muskrat89]

Thank you storm  ;D

 

[camochick]

Ok . You make a good point.