USN Surprised By Song Class Sub

[tomahawk6]

I am surprised that no one has been relieved yet. I dont know if this is a new incident or one that occured earlier this year.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

 

[aesop081]

In your face "we dont need submarines" and "ASW is dead" crowds !!!!

 

[tomahawk6]

It is an incident that occurred in November of last year, not sure why the story was resurrected.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

Rickover must still be rolling in his grave...

 

[tomahawk6]

Link to story.

http://www.sinodaily.com/reports/Chinese_Sub_Approached_US_Aircraft_Carrier_Undetected_999.html

 

[CougarKing]

Speaking of submarine incidents that involve carriers, wasn't there an instance in the 1980s when a Russian sub tried to surface with the USS Constellation right on top of her?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I wonder why the Chinese would tip their hand like that.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I wonder why the Chinese would tip their hand like that.

To gain the reaction that is occuring now.

In your face "we dont need submarines" and "ASW is dead" crowds !!!!

Nope subs are not needed at all..... :

 

[CougarKing]

I am surprised that this Chinese Navy/PLAN Song class sub was able to do that at all. The Song class are reportedly not even that advanced for diesel subs, according to this source:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/song.htm

They are a great advance on the Type 035, but are said to be a less than satisfactory design. Problems reportedly include excessive noise radiation and systems integration difficulties. The integration of Chinese, Russian and imported systems such as the French TSM 2225 sonar and German diesel engine is blamed for serious system design and operational problems on the lead boat.

The USN cannot afford to be taken surprise like that again, especially if the submarine in the next instance actually planned to launch those torpedoes at one of their carriers.

Wasn't the whole battle group pinging away with their active sonars during that exercise? If there were any USN subs there too at that exercise, they would have been pinging away with their active and passive sonars. Just shocked as well that the PLAN sub got through! 

 

[medaid]

I am surprised that this Chinese Navy/PLAN Song class sub was able to do that at all. The Song class are reportedly not even that advanced for diesel subs, according to this source:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/song.htm

Yes, and I'm sure those same people who decided that the Song was not a viable threat probably also believed your source. Seriously think about this, would the PLAN reveal sensitive information to globalsecurity.org or in fact to the USN? Maybe it's time for the U.S military to stop underestimating China. They may seem backwards at times but don't forget that China is a fast growing economically and technologically progressive power in the world. I am not surprised at all that the Song was able to surface that close, but what I am surprised about is that the USN still believes that they have the most advanced fleet in the world.

 

[Sub_Guy]

They knew, no one was surprised... 

They let that sub get in nice and close to gain a good underwater acoustic signature that they can use to match it against all further submarines.  Lets see Yan wok over to the Wok next time and see how close he gets.  Yeah that's it...


Whoever thought/thinks ASW is dead needs a good swift kick in the nads!  Some pretty narrow minded thinking from my point of view.

 

[CougarKing]

Seriously think about this, would the PLAN reveal sensitive information to globalsecurity.org or in fact to the USN? Maybe it's time for the U.S military to stop underestimating China. They may seem backwards at times but don't forget that China is a fast growing economically and technologically progressive power in the world. I am not surprised at all that the Song was able to surface that clos, but what I am surprised about is that the USN still believes that they have the most advanced fleet in the world.

I'm aware that no military would post such sensitive information online or on public sources. And neither did I have the misconception that the Mainland Chinese were still that backward when I typed this post. I have been to mainland China on study abroad programs before and am well aware of how much the PRC has advanced both economically and technologically since Deng Xiaoping further opened up China in the 1980s, though I would have assumed most of the sensitive Western military technology would have been blocked to PRC access, with the exception of French and Russian (technically Russia's not in the "West", though still in Europe) equipment. The Z-9 helicopter (a French Dauphin copy), Crotale SAM launchers and those Sorenemmy class guided-missile destroyers are all examples.

 

[medaid]

They let that sub get in nice and close to gain a good underwater acoustic signature that they can use to match it against all further submarines. 

Oh dang! I didn't even think of that... stupid me... still new at this... ugh...

Whoever thought/thinks ASW is dead needs a good swift kick in the nads! 

Never thought so, but I agree... we've somewhat abandoned our Naval and AF expansions recently....

 

[aesop081]

Wasn't the whole battle group pinging away with their active sonars during that exercise? If there were any USN subs there too at that exercise, they would have been pinging away with their active and passive sonars. Just shocked as well that the PLAN sub got through! 

I realy think you need to change lanes again  :

 

[CougarKing]

I realy think you need to change lanes again   :

Well, are you going to answer this perfectly valid question- "Wasn't the whole battle group pinging away with their active sonars during that exercise?" Or is it breaking OPSEC to do so? By all means say so in that case. Just because one is not an insider to your trade doesn't mean one cannot learn about it through discussion.

 

[aesop081]

Well, are you going to answer this perfectly valid question- "Wasn't the whole battle group pinging away with their active sonars during that exercise?" Or is it breaking OPSEC to do so? By all means say so in that case. Just because one is not an insider to your trade doesn't mean one cannot learn about it through discussion.

:

PM inbound

 

[Michael OLeary]

Well, are you going to answer this perfectly valid question- "Wasn't the whole battle group pinging away with their active sonars during that exercise?" Or is it breaking OPSEC to do so? By all means say so in that case. Just because one is not an insider to your trade doesn't mean one cannot learn about it through discussion.

Disclaimer: I am not a submariner, but have had two in the family.

Use of active sonar is the same as broadcasting your own position, common sense therefore dictates that its use is reserved for the location of identified or clearly suspected targets, and not for speculative sweeping of an area.

Passive sonar is just listening for noise from prospective, and diesel-electric subs can be some of the quietest submarines out there.

 

[CougarKing]

Disclaimer: I am not a submariner, but have had two in the family.

Use of active sonar is the same as broadcasting your own position, common sense therefore dictates that its use is reserved for the location of identified or clearly suspected targets, and not for speculative sweeping of an area.

Passive sonar is just listening for noise from prospective, and diesel-electric subs can be some of the quietest submarines out there.

Thanks for the reply.  I just assumed that since those surface ships were on exercise and if they used active sonar, there would be no reason to fear giving away their position in doing such a search, since the shadowing, intruding sub in question would already have had other means to be aware of the the surface group's presence, such as a periscope or listening to comm traffic.  But of course, this was just an assumption on my part.

 

[Inch]

Thanks for the reply.  I just assumed that since those surface ships were on exercise and if they used active sonar, there would be no reason to fear giving away their position in doing such a search, since the shadowing, intruding sub in question would already have had other means to be aware of the the surface group's presence, such as a periscope or listening to comm traffic.  But of course, this was just an assumption on my part.

Think about it, Active Sonar pollutes the water with sound. How well do you think passive sonar will work when everybody is ensonifying the water like it's going out of style? You wouldn't be able to get squat on your passive since sounds like the screw turning would be drowned out by the constant pinging. Besides, if the sub had it's periscope up, why didn't one of their radars pick up the hit? Trust me amigo, there's far more to the ASW game than actively pinging and for obvious reasons, I can't go into depth about it.

 

[CougarKing]

Inch,

Alright, it's clear now. Thanks for the reply as well.