US to close fast food in Afghan bases - Timmies & Greenbean will stay

[Dog Walker]

I wonder if the Tim Hortons will be on the chopping block?  Judging from the line-ups normally encountered, I think not.

It appears that it will be moved to a new location.

The Canadian Forces is in the final stages of a plan to build a new Tim Hortons trailer. It will be roughly double the size of the existing one and be located in the Canadian compound rather than its present spot on KAF’s multinational boardwalk market. It will be more convenient for the Canadians, much less so for other NATO troops.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/kandahar-airfield-without-canadiana/article1501507/

 

[SeanNewman]

I will be the first guy to admit that despite the rockets, my 90% of tour on KAF was unquestionably "softer" than someone who was out doing the business.  That can't be argued, really, because the statistics state that KAF is safer than any similar sized city in North America.

However, as much as I did the KAF tour once a week for a couple hours (typically rug shopping), what Technoviking said above is bang on.  Yes, when there's an op there is no mistaking the troops are living hell-on-earth, but they also then go back to decompressing at the end of the op for a bit at a place like FMG that serve Hagen Daaz ice cream.

Are there floppers on KAF?  Of course, but I personally witnessed that guy putting in essentially 16-hour days for seven months with no breaks.  No late report Sundays, no Christmas off, a dozen ramp ceremonies, and yes 50+ rockets.

So yes the potential exists to exploit KAF's services if you don't have a strong work ethic, but I do also think that it's great for the troops who want to use those places to have them available on their down time.

I love 99% of everything Comd ISAF has ever done, but I don't think the guys outside the wire need to be reminded that they're at war, be them Infantry on the OMLT or Log-types running CLPs through IED ambushes.  Give the poor guys a break from that whenever you can.

 

[PMedMoe]

statistics state that KAF is safer than any similar sized city in North America.

Only because of the low* crime rate, I'm betting.  I doubt that any similar sized North American city gets frequent rocket attacks.

*I say low because when I was there, there were incidents if drugs, sexual assaults, etc.  As a matter of fact, people (females in particular) were told not to walk in certain areas alone, day or night.

 

[392]

Yes, when there's an op there is no mistaking the troops are living hell-on-earth, but they also then go back to decompressing at the end of the op for a bit at a place like FMG that serve Hagen Daaz ice cream.

I'm not sure what decompressing you refer to in FMG? I will agree that the soldiers not going back into the BG QRF rotation at the end of an Op may have had a bit of time for maintenance and refit, but for the most part, there's no "decompression" in any of the FOBs. And for the record, the little Hagen Daaz single serving ice creams don't even come close to equating to what's available on the boardwalk or elsewhere in KAF. Every little amenity helps, but it's not the same.

What do I base this off of? I spent the better part of 3-08 in FMG running my hole off before being ordered into KAF to complete the last couple months of my tour, so I've seen both sides of the fence. The one thing that the fellas out in the FOBs do have going for them, is the distinct lack of brass who have nothing better to do than pick up on dress points  > but I digress....

Anyways, I don't necessarily agree with closing all of these down so the troops coming in from the FOBs can still unwind a bit, but I do agree with "streamlining" that footprint...

 

[Yrys]

Nato axes Afghan junk food joints at key bases

The aim is to 'optimise' efficiency at
bases like Bagram


Burger bars and pizza joints in Nato bases across Afghanistan are
being closed down in an effort "to increase efficiency across the
battlefield". A Nato spokesman said that "amenities" at bases
across the country are being phased out for logistical reasons. He
said officials at each base will decide exactly when they are axed.

Nato's top Afghanistan commander, Gen Stanley McChrystal,
made it clear last year that the days of Burger King and Pizza
Hut on Isaf bases were numbered. He expressed concern that
burger bars, pizza restaurants and other stores in large
International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) bases at Kandahar,
Bagram and Mazar-e-Sharif served as a distraction to the military
mission.

'Get refocussed'
"For several months now we have been in the process of bringing
39,000 extra troops to Afghanistan - in addition to extra equipment,
ammunition and supplies," the Nato spokesman told the BBC. "Soldiers
will still be able to eat pizzas and burgers - but served up in military
canteens rather than in commercial outlets."

A blog written in February by a senior Isaf morale welfare and recreation
officer states the argument bluntly for closing down outlets such as Burger
King, Pizza Hut and Dairy Queen. "This is a warzone, not an amusement park,"
the blog written by Command Sgt Maj Michael T Hall says. "In order to
accommodate the troop increase and get refocussed on the mission in hand,
we need to cut back on some of the non-essentials. "Supplying non-essential
luxuries to big bases like Bagram and Kandahar makes it harder to get essential
items to combat outposts and forward operating bases, where troops fighting
every day need to be resupplied with ammunition, food and water."

Command Sgt Maj Hall said that closing such outlets will free up much needed
storage space and reduce the amount of flight and ground convoy traffic across
Afghanistan. He said it would also free up "water and electricity needs required
to run these businesses". Correspondents say that while the closures are not
likely to bother troops on the frontline who live in tough conditions, many in
the larger bases on lengthy 12-month tours may complain it places an added
burden on them.

 

[SeanNewman]

Rocketed?  No, but the stats do demonstrate that they are hardly ever actually harmful. 

For the perhaps 15,000 people there, maybe 15 at most get injured in a year (with one death).

Yes it's an apples and oranges comparison, but the numbers don't lie.  For a population that size it's really no worse than anywhere else; it's just the mechanism of injury that's different.

 

[Franko]

The KAFers are gonna die from withdrawl.         

Wonder when the Timmies is going to pull up stakes?

Regards

 

[MikeL]

In KAF Green Beans and Tim Hortons are staying, was posted on the other thread about this topic.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Well 392 and I are on the same page.

Burger king/subway - nice little taste of home, and welcome break from DFAC's.

TGI Fridays? Outback? Come on. We don't need these. We are at war after all.

 

[SeanNewman]

392,

I 100% agree with you that the QRF-types are extremely busy, that is a no-brainer.  However, there are also people on FOBs who do not work 24 hours a day, and that was the only point I was making.

There were also people on KAF who were floppers and took advantage of the services provided, but there were also people in the Ops and Plans staff who while on KAF, actually put in more hours and had less time off than anyone else in the BG.

In no way saying their tour was harder (ie life in danger constantly), just that there were some HQ types working around the clock to make sure the plans were as good as they could be, C/S 0 provided as much support as it could, and there was always as much firepower in support of the troops as possible.

Long story short: A KAF tour doesn't necessarily equal one where you spend your whole time getting Filipino massages.

 

[vonGarvin]

Long story short: A KAF tour doesn't necessarily equal one where you spend your whole time getting Filipino massages.

Oh, but imagine if it did ;D

Or swedish massages!

 

[GAP]

Oh, but imagine if it did ;D

Or swedish massages!

Is that a type of massage or the nationality of who is doing it?  ;D

 

[392]

392,

I 100% agree with you that the QRF-types are extremely busy, that is a no-brainer.  However, there are also people on FOBs who do not work 24 hours a day, and that was the only point I was making.

There were also people on KAF who were floppers and took advantage of the services provided, but there were also people in the Ops and Plans staff who while on KAF, actually put in more hours and had less time off than anyone else in the BG.

In no way saying their tour was harder (ie life in danger constantly), just that there were some HQ types working around the clock to make sure the plans were as good as they could be, C/S 0 provided as much support as it could, and there was always as much firepower in support of the troops as possible.

Long story short: A KAF tour doesn't necessarily equal one where you spend your whole time getting Filipino massages.

Oh I know all too well the amount of hours put in by some in the TF HQ, I was one of them, if even for just a few months. I think I managed to put longer hours in daily while in KAF than I did while in the FOBs, but it was also a matter of principle for me to be at my desk in the POC prior to the anticipated first event of the day, and not leave until the last one of my sub-unit's troops were back in their FOB or leaguered up for the night. Mind you, this wasn't just sitting there staring at the screen for 15 hours daily, there was a bunch of actual work thrown in there too, but it does make for some long days, and gave me a chance to do an awful lot of learning about "big picture" stuff and how all the little cogs fit into the big wheel.

I will tell you too, that is was extremely frustrating to go down to Tim's to grab a coffee and listen to the some of those who never left KAF bitch about how hard they had it compared to the guys in the FOBs. It was usually at this point, I'd pop smoke and get the hell out of there before I said or did something I'd regret...

Anyways, I'm sure we're saying the same thing, but I think this can kind of gone off the tracks again into a who has it harder type discussion, and I'm out of it...

 

[SeanNewman]

I agree that we are in 100% violent agreement, dammit! 

 

[McG]

"This is a war zone - not an amusement park," Command Sgt. Maj. Michael T. Hall recently wrote on the ISAF blog.

Sometimes it seems even soldiers need a "how to talk to soldiers" advisor.  This comes across as "nothing is too good for the troops, and so nothing is exactly what they will get."  It does not ring very well with the people that will live with the decision.

Given my own observations on getting things into theatre & various other commentary buried lower in the noise of these recent news articles, the problem seems to be that: ISAF can no longer afford operational materiel to compete with excess amenities for the limited capacity of the strategic airfields to bring "stuff" into theatre.  If that is really the problem (and I believe it is), then that needed to be the focus of all the quotable quotes & sound-bites.

Bad internal communications seems to do more damage to morale then any actual decision.

 

[Jimmy67]

I saw KAF three times in my deployment; arrival, LTA, and departure. Did I find some of the things there (salsa classes???) surreal? Yes. Do I feel they should be taken away? No. We in the FOBs (Wilson in my case) joked a lot about "KAFrs", but did realize that a lot of troops there put in a lot of long hours to make our jobs possible. And let's face it, KAF resembles a giant construction site designed by the Devil. Hardly a great place to spend seven months.

I doubt very much that the good General is going to put any of his comforts on the chopping block; unless senior staff are willing to set the example and "live rough", this attitude will do nothing but breed resentment...

I think the best solution to this is to find some way (within reason) to provide better welfare services to the FOBs. Cause' frankly, they are nonexistent. No books. No DVDs. Nowhere to sit in a real chair and relax. Nothing to do but stare at a laptop night after night. We had no working phone or internet for the last month and a half there, other than sat phone. (thanks for nothing, Global Connect!!!) :rage:


We had better welfare support ten years ago than we have now; if we can bring in shipments of butt cans, surely we can provide some small comforts...

 

[Greymatters]

Sometimes it seems even soldiers need a "how to talk to soldiers" advisor.  This comes across as "nothing is too good for the troops, and so nothing is exactly what they will get."  It does not ring very well with the people that will live with the decision.

Its not the first time this has happened on a deployment, and it wont be the last.  There's always someone out there who thinks the troops should be whitewashing rocks and practicing drill in their spare time rather than malingering about, relaxing, or enjoying themselves.  "Idle hands are devils hands!"

 

[SeanNewman]

There is some merit to the argument of busy soldiers = happy and productive soldiers, but you are completely right that some people take that to the extreme.

If someone is being an unproductive flopper then by all means jack that guy up and put him to work.  But if someone just got back from a tough op where he lost some friends and wants to take a break, cut the guy some friggin' slack and give him a Whopper.

 

[1feral1]

I can remember making runs down Rte Irish to Victory and Liberty in our LAVs, and before heading back to Al Tahweed (Union III) we would if we could, hit the BK next to the huge PX there, along with the Cinnibons place, Subway, etc for a taste of  'home', and a good change from the DFAC way of life. There was also a variety of demountable small shops catering to Tshirts and other things, and there was an indoor Iraqi market place which sold everything from A to Z.

In the city there was a smaller PX, a BK, a Subway, and something called The Pizza Inn. All had NO bacon  . Often this area was out of bounds for us Australians due to the IED, VBIED, SVBIED threat, in which some vehicles just blew up in the car park at random, and without warning. The Food Court and PX were protected by 12 ft T-walls, as was near by LZ Washington.

All these places were always busy, and good for morale (mine). Sometimes when we left the wire into the IZ, we'd do a gang take-away' delivery, and come back chock-a-block full of pizzas for the lads, of all which were immedialy 'sharked' down like a pack of starving dingos feeding on a wallaby. Such dysfunctionalism is still missed to this day  :nod:


If they are closing similar places in Afghanistan, IMHO for troops coming out of a lengthy patrol etc, I am sure they would be missed to some degree.

My 2 cents,

OWDU

 

[NL_engineer]

Well another good example of senior leadership out of touch with the troops.  I think before people make these decisions they should look at its affect on troops; and not stop as far as the wire. 

Having a Timm's coffee, burger, or pizza is a large morel boost for those who don't see KAF all that often.  I found having these comforts a big boost on the days we went KAF for ramp ceremonies.