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"Unionizing" the CF (merged)

PuckChaser said:
In that same sense though, we're constantly under attack on those benefits and have no voice to fight Treasury Board on them. That, and PSAC continually bargains away our items (likely unintentionally) to the benefit of their members. I personally do not like the public service unions, but if our pay/benefits is being tied to someone else's bargaining, that's not fair or equitable.

I don't think it's fair to say that PSAC bargains away any of our benefits.  They don't give up anything without a fight.  Furthermore, they're not the only player.  They are the largest, but other union agreements also figure into our comparability formula.  Most of what we've "lost" in the last few years (and I'm not really inclined to think that these "losses" are necessarily a bad thing) are a result of shifts in goverment and public opinion on the subject:

1)  Increases in CFSA contributions are more a result of bringing things back into line with how the program was originally intended.  The whacked-out interest rates of the 1980s skewed everything and successive governments have been trying to put things right ever since.  The fact remains that we have an incredible pension plan that is the envy of most working people in this country.

2)  Loss of Severance Pay was inevitable.  Outside of government, people rarely get severance pay for retiring.  It's usually reserved for folks who are fired, laid-off, etc.  The Public were starting to question this practice.  Furthermore, the PS unions did not give this up willingly.  My understanding is that they were basically told that if they wanted a pay raise they had to give up severance pay.  The trouble with public service unions is that their bargaining power is often limited when governments can simply legislate the end result if necessary.  On a side note, the main reason CF members cannot usually claim EI on leaving the CF is because our severance benefits often exceed the applicable EI benefits.  Perhaps now releasing CF members will be able to claim EI more than they used to be able to?  This could mitigate another common complaint.

3)  The loss of ability to claim for mortgage breaking fees on posting is actually very reasonable in most circumstances. Every bank in Canada will allow you to port a mortgage free of charge, so there is no reason why the Crown should be paying to break mortgages on postings.  The down side of this are those cases where the member will not be buying another house (e.g. OUTCAN/isolated posts).  This last point needs to be addressed.

The only one I'm really pi$$ed about is the new requirement to move at least 40km to qualify for a move on retirement.  As far as I can see, this change was more about embarrassing a prominent Liberal supporter than about saving money or instituting fairness.  How dare someone claim his legal entitlements AND join the Liberal Party!
 
Pusser said:
I don't think it's fair to say that PSAC bargains away any of our benefits.  They don't give up anything without a fight.  Furthermore, they're not the only player.  They are the largest, but other union agreements also figure into our comparability formula.

Sorry.  I disagree with your statement.  PSAC as the largest PS union has done just that, not only to us, but to all the other smaller PS unions as well.  The other PS unions always wait for PSAC to do its negotiations and then they fall in line, with little choice as they do not have the clout that PSAC numbers have.  I know damn well that PIPS does not like the end of Severance Pay, nor do they like the end to Sick Leave and many other items that PSAC have bargained away.

Pusser said:
  Most of what we've "lost" in the last few years (and I'm not really inclined to think that these "losses" are necessarily a bad thing) are a result of shifts in goverment and public opinion on the subject:

Many of us will disagree with some of your "not necessarily a bad thing" philosophy.

Pusser said:
1)  Increases in CFSA contributions are more a result of bringing things back into line with how the program was originally intended.  The whacked-out interest rates of the 1980s skewed everything and successive governments have been trying to put things right ever since.  The fact remains that we have an incredible pension plan that is the envy of most working people in this country.

Just because it is the envy of most working people in Canada, does not mean it has to be tampered with.  There is NOTHING stopping all those other people from banding together and demanding similar pension plans from their employers, or from other employers from creating such pension plans to entice people to work for them.  Any Economist can tell you all about "interest rates" and that they are never written in stone, so don't blame market conditions on why contributions are not what they should be.

Pusser said:
2)  Loss of Severance Pay was inevitable.  Outside of government, people rarely get severance pay for retiring.  It's usually reserved for folks who are fired, laid-off, etc.  The Public were starting to question this practice.  Furthermore, the PS unions did not give this up willingly.  My understanding is that they were basically told that if they wanted a pay raise they had to give up severance pay.  The trouble with public service unions is that their bargaining power is often limited when governments can simply legislate the end result if necessary.  On a side note, the main reason CF members cannot usually claim EI on leaving the CF is because our severance benefits often exceed the applicable EI benefits.  Perhaps now releasing CF members will be able to claim EI more than they used to be able to?  This could mitigate another common complaint.

BS.  A far more employers than you hint to, have Severance packages of some sort. 

Claiming EI after Release.  Yeah!  That is such an important reason for us to lose Severance Pay.  NOT!

Pusser said:
3)  The loss of ability to claim for mortgage breaking fees on posting is actually very reasonable in most circumstances. Every bank in Canada will allow you to port a mortgage free of charge, so there is no reason why the Crown should be paying to break mortgages on postings.  The down side of this are those cases where the member will not be buying another house (e.g. OUTCAN/isolated posts).  This last point needs to be addressed.

Sorry.  Mortgage breaking fees on posting are a very necessary benefit for those who have short postings that are less than the period listed in their mortgage.  Most mortgages will have a condition that one can not break a mortgage in the first two years of the mortgage.  How many Service members have been faced with one or two year postings, planned or unplanned, where they have been in the circumstance where they have had to break a mortgage early?  I have been in that position and know that the $3K fee (in 1991) would have been a large hit to my bank account.

 
George, there is so much wrong with your post I don't know where to start...........I'll just say I thought Pusser's post was well thought out and pretty much spot on.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
George, there is so much wrong with your post I don't know where to start...........I'll just say I thought Pusser's post was well thought out and pretty much spot on.

I completely concur.
 
George Wallace said:
Sorry.  I disagree with your statement.  PSAC as the largest PS union has done just that, not only to us, but to all the other smaller PS unions as well.  The other PS unions always wait for PSAC to do its negotiations and then they fall in line, with little choice as they do not have the clout that PSAC numbers have.  I know damn well that PIPS does not like the end of Severance Pay, nor do they like the end to Sick Leave and many other items that PSAC have bargained away.

Many of us will disagree with some of your "not necessarily a bad thing" philosophy.

Just because it is the envy of most working people in Canada, does not mean it has to be tampered with.  There is NOTHING stopping all those other people from banding together and demanding similar pension plans from their employers, or from other employers from creating such pension plans to entice people to work for them.  Any Economist can tell you all about "interest rates" and that they are never written in stone, so don't blame market conditions on why contributions are not what they should be.

BS.  A far more employers than you hint to, have Severance packages of some sort. 

Claiming EI after Release.  Yeah!  That is such an important reason for us to lose Severance Pay.  NOT!

Sorry.  Mortgage breaking fees on posting are a very necessary benefit for those who have short postings that are less than the period listed in their mortgage.  Most mortgages will have a condition that one can not break a mortgage in the first two years of the mortgage.  How many Service members have been faced with one or two year postings, planned or unplanned, where they have been in the circumstance where they have had to break a mortgage early?  I have been in that position and know that the $3K fee (in 1991) would have been a large hit to my bank account.

In quick response:

Yes, PSAC is big and powerful, but some of the other unions are pretty powerful as well (e.g. the two Federal Government Trades and Labour Councils, which are separate bargaining units, are pretty @#$%! powerful).  However, all the union power in the world will not help you when the government is bound and determined to get its way on a point.  I maintain that no union "bargained away" severance pay.  No one wanted to lose it, but faced with a determined foe, they conceded in order to make other gains.

1)  The CFSA was designed from the outset to have only a slight differential between employee and employer contribution rates.  However, at one point (the 1980s) the government was contributing seven dollars for every one dollar that the member contributed.  Keep in mind that the CFSA is a defined benefit plan, meaning that regardless of what happens to interest rates, the government has to make up the shortfalls.  Now that interest rates are more stable, moving the yardsticks to get things back within the intent of the plan is a reasonable course of action.

2)  I honestly don't know what the current trend on severance pay is in the private sector, but I do find it odd that one can get paid for simply retiring - a planned and forecasted event (lay-offs and downsizing are different and severance for those is still intact).  I also have to concede that I, in fact, lost very little in this deal as I was almost at the maximum anyway when the shoe dropped (i.e. I'm getting virtually all the severance pay I would have gotten anyway).  Plus I have the added benefit of being able to take some of it early in order to more easily tax shelter it.

3)  Sorry, but there is absolutely nothing unreasonable about not paying mortgage termination penalties in most cases (I did mention that there are a few where it is appropriate).  Bank mortgages can be ported free of charge anywhere in Canada, so there is no reason for the Crown to pay mortgage termination fees for inside Canada moves. 
 
Excellent point you make, and am sure this is one overlooked point for those that might be in favour of a union. I mean there are some that already think Mess dues should be optional, and now considering having to pay out to some Union that might / might not do anything for you.

Speaking of breaking Mortgages and penalties, what is it going to take for this country and the businesses to show more appreciation for the Forces, and have offers like they do in the US? The Govt can work out some kind of deal with banks, where CAF members don't get a penalty when they sell their homes...is this asking too much?

I cross the border at least twice a month, and am able to get Govt rates at hotels, stores, get on a plane along with US service mbrs, and get into museums, galleries and aquariums for free. Last place I got this was in Chicago at the Shedd aquarium

recceguy said:
And for those that want a union, don't forget the  $1000+ a year for dues that you'll have no control on how they spend it, even if you don't agree with their platform.
 
Oh!  You can get Government rates at hotels here in Canada.  Just don't do it (unless you are on duty and can claim it).  It usually costs you more for the Government rate than for the regular rate.
 
Brasidas said:
Travel lodge gives me a decent rate both in Canada and the States.

Let's not mix up Government Rates (negotiated between the Government and the Company) and Military Discounts (a discount offered to military pers by the Company on its own accord) offered by various hotels/motels.
 
I get mil rate in Canada and the States with my ND 75. My senior discount is normally higher though ;)

You need to let this line go George.
 
recceguy said:
I get mil rate in Canada and the States with my ND 75. My senior discount is normally higher though ;)

You need to let this line go George.

Huh?  Just pointing out that the Government rate you may think is cheaper for hotels, often is more expensive.... :dunno:  ...Don't know what you are getting on about?
 
opcougar said:
Speaking of breaking Mortgages and penalties, what is it going to take for this country and the businesses to show more appreciation for the Forces, and have offers like they do in the US? The Govt can work out some kind of deal with banks, where CAF members don't get a penalty when they sell their homes...is this asking too much?

In all fairness, you're asking the bank to lose on money on something over which they have no control.  When anyone breaks a mortgage, the bank will incur a cost.  A portion of the mortgage breaking fee they charge is in fact a penalty (i.e. they are punishing the mortgagee for being a pain), but a good chunk of it is to cover the bank's losses.  Considering that banks will allow mortgagees to port the mortgage (i.e. transfer it to a new house), I think they've got that pretty much covered.  However, there are cases where members are not able to port their mortgages (e.g. an OUTCAN posting) and for that reason, this subject should be re-opened by Treasury Board and some allowances made.
 
It is odd that the NJC Relocation directive still covers part of the cost of mortgage breaking.

http://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/index.php?sid=111&hl=1&lang=eng#tc-tm_11

8.11 Mortgage-Breaking Penalties

When an employee incurs a mortgage early repayment penalty he or she shall be reimbursed an amount not exceeding 3 months' interest or $5,000, whichever is less and as follows:

Core Fund
•Employees purchasing at the new location who cannot port mortgage;
•Employees who rent at the new location;
•Employees who are unable to buy because of a requirement to occupy Crown housing.

Personalized Funds
•Employees who purchase at the new location and who decide not to port their mortgage when portability was an option.

 
Pusser said:
In all fairness, you're asking the bank to lose on money on something over which they have no control.  When anyone breaks a mortgage, the bank will incur a cost.  A portion of the mortgage breaking fee they charge is in fact a penalty (i.e. they are punishing the mortgagee for being a pain), but a good chunk of it is to cover the bank's losses.  Considering that banks will allow mortgagees to port the mortgage (i.e. transfer it to a new house), I think they've got that pretty much covered.  However, there are cases where members are not able to port their mortgages (e.g. an OUTCAN posting) and for that reason, this subject should be re-opened by Treasury Board and some allowances made.

What about cases where the military family finds the housing market in the new posting unaffordable and prefer to rent? I think the rules as posted by dapaterson make a lot of sense.
 
Brasidas said:
What about cases where the military family finds the housing market in the new posting unaffordable and prefer to rent?

I don't disagree with you on that point.
 
Some of the latest arguements, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42) ....
Canada's military leadership's ongoing failure to deal with the endemic problems of harassment, sexual misconduct, a broken grievance system and lack of long-term medical care for serving members of the Armed Forces keep making headlines 30 years on.

Nonetheless, politicians seem willing, yet again, to leave the problem to the generals, like our recently replaced chief of the defence staff, Tom Lawson, who dismissed the problem of sexual harassment by stating that some military personnel are simply "biologically wired in a certain way."

Former veterans argue that now's the time for government to give our men and women in uniform a voice in their own well-being by allowing them to form a professional association or union.

"There's absolutely no reason, within the realm of Canadian Charter rights or natural justice, that would prevent Canadian Armed Forces members from organizing and collectively bargaining for their rights and benefits," says retired air force captain and disabled veteran advocate Sean Bruyea. The RCMP, in fact, won the right to unionize in a recent Supreme Court ruling.

Understandably, the idea of a professional military association or some variation of a union may seem revolutionary to those who only see soldiers on public occasions and royal visits parading automaton-like in lockstep to the commands of their sergeant-major. But the plain truth is that associations with collective bargaining rights are not as novel an idea in this country's defence-security network as you might think.

Every day our uniformed paramilitary municipal and provincial police, border guards and fire service personnel ensure our safety and security as card-carrying union members. The same is true of employees of the Canadian Coast Guard, as well as various elements of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and Communication Security Establishment.

Of course, these uniformed and armed employees do work that's classified as essential services and do not have the right to strike. But that doesn't stop them from bargaining collectively for greater benefits and salary, seeking arbitration when contract talks reach an impasse or advocating on members' behalf. It doesn't in the military services of other countries, either.

For the last few decades, Canadian Forces have served alongside unionized military personnel from Germany, Norway, Netherlands and Sweden. France's military is soon to unionize, too.

Understandably, some fear that unionizing the armed forces will compromise its disciplinary ethos. But just how valid is the argument that union membership will invariably "pacify" those who wear a uniform and may have to stand in harm's way? Are municipalities being flooded with complaints that our unionized police are slack in their fight against crime and their interaction with the public? The opposite appears more often to be the case.

Should I be concerned that unionized firefighters in my community may fail to show up and do their job if my house catches fire? Likewise, there seems to be no perceivable level of public panic that safety is being compromised because our Coast Guard and Canadian Border Services Agency members carry union cards.

Yet, despite the fact that our military personnel are increasingly technologically savvy and educated, long-outdated notions of absolute disciplinary submission to superiors continue to dominate our perception of what is right and normal.

"The modern military should not be about the antiquated notion of marching in perfect unison on a parade square following barking orders," says Bruyea. "Soldiers who know that their needs and views will be respected can contribute their innovation, creativity and best abilities, resulting in more effective units and a more effective military."

Retired army colonel and lawyer Michel Drapeau says, "Our men and women in uniform are becoming more sophisticated and educated. They know they have rights and they want to have them observed. However, at present it is very much one-sided in favour of the military chain of command, which does not shy away from using its potent disciplinary powers to silence dissent and leave wrongs unattended."

Drapeau, who served in a variety of senior command positions during a 34-year military career, envisions an association of military professionals working in concert with the chain of command to "achieve excellence in standards of discipline... within a modernized and effective military justice system."

Closely related to concerns about the impact on discipline is the fear that a unionized military might compromise the high standard of leadership that officers and non-commissioned officers are expected to aspire to.

"Nonsense," says Peter Stoffer, the NDPs Veteran Affairs critic, who was active in the union movement prior to entering politics. "If anything, it will help the leadership in the Forces. The only people who fear unions are very poor and weak managers."

Drapeau argues that without an association to hold leaders to good leadership principles, bad leaders can continue to "use the incredible disciplinary power that they have over the careers of others."

Bruyea goes further, saying that it is "questionable whether Canada has ever produced a culture of strong, caring leadership, let alone any culture of quality leadership, in our military." He describes Canada's senior military leadership as " technocratic careerists who rarely put the interest of subordinates first."

As a counter to this bureaucratic careerism, a union, according to Bruyea, "would allow the personnel interests to be put on equal footing with other political and bureaucratic demands."

It's inevitable that any future debate over a possible unionized Canadian Armed Forces will raise concerns among traditionalists, as did the opening of combat roles to women and the introduction of religious headgear in the 1980s and 90s.

Our government may well decide that basic Charter rights do not apply to Canada's military when it comes to unionization. Should that happen, it will then be up to our soldiers to decide how much they may want to be a part of an organization unwilling to trust them as legally recognized stakeholders.

Robert Smol served in the Canadian Armed Forces for more than 20 years. He is currently a teacher and freelance writer in Toronto.

 
maybe a proffesional association might be able to apply pressure to solve IRP, HQ bloat along with other administrative sink holes that never seem to get resolved like MES.

EDIT: clarity
 
c_canuk said:
maybe a proffesional association might be able to apply pressure to solve IRP, HQ bloat along with other administrative sink holes that never seem to get resolved like MES.

EDIT: clarity
I am vehemently against a union.  You just can't have Pte Bloggins running to his union Rep when Sgt tells him to do something he feels is outside his job description. I also feel unions begin to be more concerned with their own power than actually helping their members be successful parts of a whole.

With that said,  a professional association, where we could be members and vote on things we feel need to change, could be the voice we need at the table. We all see these things being done and hearing generals say certain things that make us scratch our heads because we know they are not feasible on the ground. We have no way of getting front line info up to the government except through those same people who made the decisions we think are unworkable.

The people with the voices are often so far removed from the rank and file that their issues aren't our issues. A professional association could be the way to get our issues heard.

There would be a lot of issues though.  Would it be all ranks? If so would it end up being dominated by those same senior personnel. How would it be organized to ensure fair representation? If it was strictly democratic, it could end up being preoccupied by army NCM issue due to sheer numbers.  How would it get involved without undermining the CoC ?
 
Tcm621 said:
I also feel unions begin to be more concerned with their own power than actually helping their members be successful parts of a whole.

As I am no longer a member of the CAF Reserve, I offer no opinion on whether a union ( call it an association if you prefer ) would be good or bad for current CAF members.

But, if you are referring to unions in general, I was a full-time member of the same union for a little shy of 37 years. We did not have, and did not seek, the right to strike. Toronto's police officers, firefighters and paramedics have been unionized for almost a century. I believe most of our elected leaders worked to negotiate better pay, benefits, pensions and working conditions for the membership. If they didn't, they were voted out, and returned to their stations.

 
mariomike said:
As I am no longer a member of the CAF Reserve, I offer no opinion on whether a union ( call it an association if you prefer ) would be good or bad for current CAF members.

But, if you are referring to unions in general, I was a full-time member of the same union for a little shy of 37 years. We did not have, and did not seek, the right to strike. Toronto's police officers, firefighters and paramedics have been unionized for almost a century. I believe most of our elected leaders worked to negotiate better pay, benefits, pensions and working conditions for the membership. If they didn't, they were voted out, and returned to their stations.

I will not comment about that particular union, they may be fantastic for all I know. However, many police unions will protect their members to the detriment of the intituition. I think EMS unions in general are probably the best out of the bunch because they are filled with people who, at heart, are there to help others. That is my main point about unions, is that they are, by their very nature, at odds with the intitutions (at least to some degree). For a union, the needs and wants of the membership has to come first. When they are given the ability to disrupt work if their desires are not met, it becomes problematic in a military context. I would likely support a professional association who could act as out voice in Ottawa. The ombudsman's office is a great tool but it is reactive. An expanded role might be an option. Basically, I believe we need a voice and we don't have it and I don't really know what the solution is.
 
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