Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?

[Old Sweat]

Unification was rushed into place without a lot of thought. The services were integrated on a national level in 1964 and a year or so later the same was done to the single service commands. Even this second step had difficulties, as the army and navy had geographic commands while the RCAF used functional commands. So, the forces were forced into a functional command structure made up of Maritime, Mobile, Air Defence, Air Transport, Training and Materiel Commands. It would have been prudent to let this all meld while taking a careful look at the whole thing. Incidentally Mobile Command, which included a fairly hefty air component but not the reserves, was built on the model of a USMC Fleet Marine Force.

 

[Tank Troll]

Paul Hellyer's name is still cursed here at the Halifax Rifles by the Associate members as the placement of the Regiment on the supplementary order of battle was a direct result of his political whim (the regiment had strong Conservative ties) So 44 years latter by standing back up (political or not) we put an other nail in to the unification/transformation coffin.

Another nail is the executive curl that the navy is getting back (as discussed in an other thread) though when the CDS ask to reinstate the pips and crowns he was told to basically pound salt.  ;D

 

[ArmyRick]

Is it confirmed yet that the navy officer ranks are getting their curls back?

 

[Old Sweat]

. . . though when the CDS ask to reinstate the pips and crowns he was told to basically pound salt.  ;D

Could you please cite the reliable source for this statement?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Is it confirmed yet that the navy officer ranks are getting their curls back?

News Room
Navy Executive Curl & Sea Service Insignia Announcements
May 3, 2010

2 May, 2010

Halifax, NS

Please check against delivery

Thank you Lieutenant Navy Al Blondin

Rear Admiral Paul Maddison [Commander MARLANT]

Ladies and gentlemen,

Good morning.

I’m always happy to be back in Halifax – where my Nova Scotian lungs can get a good dose of East Coast salt air.

I’m especially happy because I have some exciting news to share with you.

To recognise the exceptional contributions of our Navy, we are reinstating the Navy Executive Curl and introducing a Sea Service Insignia.

Unveiling these here is all the more meaningful today, during the Battle of the Atlantic commemorations.

Halifax, of course, was at the forefront of Canada’s Second World War effort, with hundreds of thousands of service personnel passing through – bound for Europe or the vast expanse of the Atlantic.

It was a last look at these shores that served as a fond farewell to so many.

Today we remember the courage and fortitude of Canadian men and women during those dark years of the Second World War…

…when they played a crucial role in the Battle of the Atlantic – protecting the vital convoys carrying the life-blood of the Allied war effort in Europe.

It was during this time that our Navy acquired its sense of purpose – and identity – that have carried into the present day.

Canadian Naval Centennial

Ladies and gentlemen, our men and women in uniform sacrifice so much and they deserve our thanks.

What better time to show our appreciation than during the Navy’s Centennial year?

This anniversary offers us an excellent opportunity to recognise the vibrant heritage of our Navy, while we help to, as their Centennial motto says, “Commemorate, Celebrate and Commit.”

Throughout the year, we will see many of the world’s navies come together off our shores.

There will be port visits on the east and west coasts, and celebrations across the country.

As we celebrate the Navy’s distinguished past, we recognise the Navy’s continuing commitment to serve Canada and Canadians.

We need only look to the sailors who supported the RCMP with surveillance patrols, port security and clearance diving, to secure the Vancouver Olympic Games.

And the men and women of HMCS Halifax and Athabaskan who worked so hard to deliver aid to the victims of the earthquake in Haiti.

And HMCS Fredericton – now on its way back home – which was engaged in NATO counter-piracy and counter-terrorism operations off the Horn of Africa.

People from coast to coast to coast have good reason to be proud of how our Navy has flown Canada’s flag around the world.

Tonne-for-tonne – and sailor-for-sailor – it is among the best in the world.

The Navy Curl and the Sea Service Insignia

It is with great pleasure that I share two pieces of exciting news with you today.

I would like to give credit to my clleague, Mr. Guy Lauzon, MP for Stormont-Dundas-South Glengarry, who in 2009 introduced a Private Member’s Motion in the House of Commons to reinstate the Navy Executive Curl.

This motion received unanimous support from the House, and today I am pleased to see the reinstatement of the Navy Executive Curl move forward.

The Executive Curl is a ring above a naval officer’s gold lace or braid insignia.

It has a proud history, and is thought to date back to the Crimean War in the mid-1800s…

It is an important link to our Navy’s past…

It was part of a Canadian naval officer’s uniform from the official founding of the Royal Canadian Navy in 1910, right up until the unification of Canada’s armed forces in 1968.

Up until today, it remained only as a part of the naval officer mess dress.

That is about to change.

By June of this year we can look forward to seeing the Executive Curl at the West Coast International Fleet Review.

The Curl will play an important role in reinforcing identity and cohesion within the Navy…

…distinguishing the more than 5,000 naval officers in the regular and reserve forces.

Because it’s important to recognise the exceptional work our sailors do on our behalf.

This brings me to my second piece of news: the introduction of a Sea Service Insignia to recognise the uniqueness of maritime service.

All CF personnel are potentially eligible for this Insignia because, as an integrated military, our Navy, Army and Air Force work together to accomplish our missions.

Our sailors – and soldiers and air personnel – who sail on HMC Ships, are separated from their loved ones for long periods of time as soon as they leave port.

Unfortunately, often they do not qualify for length-of-service decorations that do not take into consideration time spent getting from Canada to their destination.

That’s not good enough.

The Sea Service Insignia is Canada’s way of saying “thank you” to all members of the Canadian Forces who have spent at least 365 days at sea…

…a year away from home.

It is a visible and formal recognition of the key role that naval operations play in Canadian security at home and abroad.

Whether participating in search and rescue operations…

…protecting Canada’s ocean approaches…

…conducting Arctic sovereignty exercises, or…

…patrolling the world’s oceans to keep them safe for all to use.

Ladies and gentlemen, our Navy’s dedication and maritime contributions to international security are well recognised on the world stage…

…as much for its labours in peace as those in war.

Conclusion

And people are the heart of our Navy’s success – sailors with the support of their families.

In March’s Speech from the Throne, this Government reiterated our continued pledge to stand up for the Canadian Forces.

And today’s announcements follow on that pledge.

The Navy Executive Curl and the Sea Service Insignia are much deserved recognition for the men and women who are out there in harm’s way for us every day.

The men and women who will proudly carry our Navy into its next glorious century.

Thank you.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Paul Hellyer's name is still cursed here at the Halifax Rifles by the Associate members as the placement of the Regiment on the supplementary order of battle was a direct result of his political whim (the regiment had strong Conservative ties) So 44 years latter by standing back up (political or not) we put an other nail in to the unification/transformation coffin.

Another nail is the executive curl that the navy is getting back (as discussed in an other thread) though when the CDS ask to reinstate the pips and crowns he was told to basically pound salt.  ;D

Buttons and bows! I used to use a picture of Sir Frederick Middleton as my avatar here because, in part, that doughty old soldier captured one of the great failings in the Canadian militia. They were, he suggested circa 1885, too concerned with "full dress and feathers" and not enough concerned with the hard business of soldiering.

While I think the current rank system is a fair bit less than appropriate for an army we do not need to revert to pips and crowns. If, perhaps when, we make changes to our uniforms it ought to be with a combination of some sense of our history - which makes dark, rifle green uniforms very appropriate for the Canadian Army (see Butler's Rangers, etc) - and of our unique Canadian identity.

I, too, welcomed, the return of the executive curl, which is used by several navies, not all of them in the British Commonwealth, because it made our Canadian Navy officers more recognizably Navy. I would welcome a new system of army ranks, too, if it made our Canadian Army officers more recognizably Army. There are alternatives to crowns and pips. But it's not something that ought to preoccupy the CDS.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Is it confirmed yet that the navy officer ranks are getting their curls back?

There is a CANFORGEN on the subject of the Curl and SSI.  Just finished reading it.  The Curl will commence on the 11th June at the IFR at Esquimault for selected Officers due to short supply of correct fabric braid.  It will be instituted in stages.

 

[a_majoor]

This is the kind of thinking that got us into the mess of unification in the first place.  What works for WalMart may well not be appropriate for the military.

As I noted. However, WalMart and similar organizations are able to handle rapidly changing global logistic chains with thousands of items and billions of dollars in cash flow, quickly hire and train staff, pay them quickly and accuratly regardless of full or part time status, and like most organizations with "modern" management structures, seem to have only 5 layers of heirarchy.

Compare that to how well "we" can get new boots to the soldiers (never mind tanks and AFV's) or the endless difficulties reservists have with their pay to name two well known examples and you can see why a flat heirarchy with nimble management and robust logistics and HR tools might seem rather attractive...

 

[Tank Troll]

Could you please cite the reliable source for this statement?

An off hand remark made at the Armour Corp Confrence

 

[Old Sweat]

Thanks. So it falls in the definite maybe category. This is not an attack on you, but I wondered why it had not surfaced before. I would think there would have been some discussion about restoring the old officer rank badges, even if informally, through the giant green grapevine.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Is it confirmed yet that the navy officer ranks are getting their curls back?

Just so we don't derail this thread, here is 21 pages and counting.............

 

[Michael OLeary]

There's something about a navy man in curls.    ;D

 

[exspy]

I was thinking about the issue of renaming Maritime, Land Forces and Air Commands with the names previously used by the three military Services of Canada, and I've come to the conclusion that it cannot be done, at least not in the manner that it's supporters would like to see.

January 31, 1968, was the last day of existence for Canada's three armed Services.  The next day the Canadian Armed Forces came into being as Canada's one and only military Service.  Immediately below the new Service headquarters was the Command, the titles of which are the point of consideration here.  Now, NDHQ can name a Command anything they want, but these Commands will not be Services.  To use a name previously used by a Service for a Command would, in my opinion, denigrate the name.  The closest that could ever be used is Canadian Navy Command, Canadian Army Command and Canadian Air Force Command, and to my knowledge no Command of any military Service has ever received the prefix 'Royal' (ie. Royal Bomber Command or Royal Central Command).

The renaming advocates want to transform Commands into Services and this cannot be done simply by an order from NDHQ.  When the three Services unified the old titles were lost and they are not coming back.

In short, Maritime Command can never become the Royal Canadian Navy.  The same with Land Forces Command and Air Command.  For those who want a separate Service called the RCN you will have to try to get Parliament to undo Unification.  Good luck in your endeavours.

Cheers,
Dan.

 

[pbi]

As usual, tons of good commentary going on here. A few observations:

Respect does not equal affection, yellow ribbons or red T-shirts. Respect is rooted in an understanding of why we need and have a military and why it needs to have its own norms and standards

I agree fully with this. While we are experiencing a great outpouring of public support and affection, it is generally directed at concern for the safety of soldiers as individuals, the tragedy of their deaths, and the suffering of their families. While these are very important (and were, in my experience largely absent in past decades), they are NOT the same as an intelligent respect for the profession of arms and its role in a civil society. I would offer  though, that we are not alone in facing this problem: professions in this country in general are facing a great decline in public  respect, for a number of reasons.

Nuclear fear replaced an understanding of what the Canadian and allied military forces were doing and why they were doing it. The fear made people ignore, even denigrate their own military forces – “we” became part of the problem, not part of the solution. Of course popular reaction to Viet Nam and Trudeau’s anti-nationalist leadership made matters worse and worse.

Very true: by way of illustrating this, I recall distinctly about 20 years ago arguing with my uncle, an educated and successful professional, about his contention that  "now that we have nuclear weapons we don't need armies". Fear about nuclear war eclipsed intelligent discussion about the use of armed forces.

Incidentally Mobile Command, which included a fairly hefty air component but not the reserves, was built on the model of a USMC Fleet Marine Force.

When was the Militia made part of Mobile Command, then? When I joined the Militia in 1974, we wore MobCom badges on our CFs and these were also painted on the doors of our SMP vehs. As for the USMC reference: (actually I think a MAGTF not FMF...) it just illustrates the point I made about superficial transference of other people's  ideas and practices, without overall coherent thought: what good is a MAGTF structure when your Navy has no interest in (or capability for...) amphibious operations, and most of your AirForce has little or no capability of expeditionary operations?

I would think there would have been some discussion about restoring the old officer rank badges, even if informally, through the giant green grapevine.

As Adjt of 1 PPCLI, in 1992 I attended a working group at FMC St Hubert to consider what was then called TASK: Trade Advancement for Skill and Knowledge: the return of the pre-Unification Trades Group badges. (The work eventually resulted in the arm badges we see on DEU today). One of the things we talked about as a side issue for consideration was rationalizing the Army rank structure. The instructions preceding this discussion included the point that NDHQ had directed the Army that the existing rank badges were to be left untouched: in particular pips and crowns were out. The reason we were given was that with the reinstatement of distinctive uniforms, the CF rank badges were on of the last visible signs of unification.


Cheers

 

[quadrapiper]

The reason we were given was that with the reinstatement of distinctive uniforms, the CF rank badges were on of the last visible signs of unification.

It's depressing that anyone would explicitly want to retain visible signs of the biggest military-administration disaster to befall our forces.

With the curl coming back, there's at least a foot in the door for rank alterations.

 

[Tank Troll]

The reserve Officers are allowed to wear pips and crowns on their mess dress.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I don't mean to keep beating up on "full dress and feathers" but neither the executive curl nor a return to pips and crowns will do anything at all to address the real, serious problem faced by the CF. Those are morale issues and, if I may say so, probably fairly minor morale issues to officers who have never worn crowns and pips.

The biggest problem that faces the CF in 2010 is exactly the same one that faced the three services (RCN, Canadian Army and RCAF) in 1960, the very same problem Mr. Hellyer wanted to solve through his organizational vandalism: the defence budget is inadequate.

The main reasons for an inadequate defence budget have not changed very much either:

1. Canadian rarely like to spend on defence - according to most of the polling I have seen, over the years, the CF ranks down there with symphony orchestras and opera houses on the public's list of spending priorities; and

2. There is not a well understood threat to Canada. You can argue that radical, jihadist Islam has declared war on us but the Canadian people do not see it. They, Canadians, are not at war and they are not afraid, either.

We, the broad military family, need to help Canadians understand that an effective military (and that means operationally effective and cost effective, too) is their insurance policy. None of us ever want to have to use our insurance policies; we don't want to be in car accidents and we don't want our houses to burn down but we buy insurance anyway, just in case circumstances beyond our control arise. The federal government collects over $7,000.00 for every man woman and child in Canada; about $125.00 of that - $400.00 for the average family - goes for national defence, the national insurance policy.

That's my  :2c:  I'm glad the executive curl is back; I wore crowns and pips on a khaki uniform - and I was pleased and proud to do so, and I would not object to seeing them or, preferably, some new, more Army, rank badges for officers, BUT that's not the solution to any of our the CF's really big problems.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I'm afraid that with the planned pullout of the Sandbox we are going to head into another "Peace Dividend" as we did at the end of the Cold War.  The Gov't won't give us the funding we need to re-equip the Navy or Air Force for some time I'll wager to bet.  For all the noise that the Gov't has made these past years about doing right by the CF it has been mostly noise, misdirection and sleight of hand.  Here we are 11 years since I was told by Ottawa types that there would be 4 AOR replacements by 05.  Still waiting and forget about the 280's or even thinking of the CPF replacements.  I am sure the Air Force needs more than they have received too, but I am not a Zoomie.  The Army also I am sure needs to be thinking of new equipment to replace the things worn out from the past 9 years.  Perhaps ER the Curl and SSI could fall under the parlor tricks to misdirect attention.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm afraid that with the planned pullout of the Sandbox we are going to head into another "Peace Dividend" as we did at the end of the Cold War.  The Gov't won't give us the funding we need to re-equip the Navy or Air Force for some time I'll wager to bet.  For all the noise that the Gov't has made these past years about doing right by the CF it has been mostly noise, misdirection and sleight of hand.  Here we are 11 years since I was told by Ottawa types that there would be 4 AOR replacements by 05.  Still waiting and forget about the 280's or even thinking of the CPF replacements.  I am sure the Air Force needs more than they have received too, but I am not a Zoomie.  The Army also I am sure needs to be thinking of new equipment to replace the things worn out from the past 9 years.  Perhaps ER the Curl and SSI could fall under the parlor tricks to misdirect attention.

I don't think I would go quite that far, but nothing much would surprise me after 35+ years of service, including the '60s, '70s, '80s and part of the '90s, too. I did the "decades of darkness."

 

[jollyjacktar]

I do hope we never go back to the Decade of Darkness days.  But I see much noise and little substance WRT replacements for the fleet.  My time is almost done and I know that I won't ever set foot on the deck of a new AOR or 280 for example unless I am doing it as a retired Sailor.  Money talks and BS walks and so far there has been a great deal of line dancing.