UK Racist?

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

If that was your intent with the aboriginal comment, then I apologize. It was not clear to me as you initially wrote it.

There are all kinds of asian gangs in Vancouver, who are responsible for all kinds of terrible violence. I rememeber one time (well, I sort of remember one time) when a friend of mine and I were drunk and walked into a bar (the wrong one, it turns out), and were the only two white guys in the whole place. We got a lot of terrible looks, and there were some delightful comments made. We got out of there before it turned ugly. I can empathize with your position in such situations, however, I don‘t think it‘s fair to blame "immigrants" for that problem, rather, I blame the individuals responsible. And while I do agree that anyone coming to a new country is going to have to deal with a certain amount of change, I certainly don‘t expect them to check their previous life at the door, and I think that "natives" of the country are going to have to be prepared to accept a little change themselves, because that‘s just the way life works. In other words, when I drive out to Richmond (heavily Asian municipality in Greater Vancouver), I‘m prepared to accept the fact that I‘m the minority there. No big deal. I‘m not trying to say that immigration and multiculturalism isn‘t or shouldn‘t be an issue at all- there are definitely problems, as with everything- but I don‘t honestly see it as such a big deal. I don‘t think that ANY society has EVER, through the course of human history, had "complete unity in terms of political or moral ideals" (Gate Guard), so I don‘t think it‘s reasonable to expect it.

 

[1feral1]

Sure there are some problems with some triads here, mainly drugs and turf, and if there is killings its between themselves. Never really any big news, and fight amoung themselves.

In regards to the muslim gangs and the younger generation of islamic youth in Sydney, there is a hatred for everyone except themselves. This is so evident the city of Sydney where the main popluation base is (300,000 out of 4 million).

Other cities like Melbourne have them too, but not as many, and they dont have the problem as we in Sydney do. There is so much negativity here.

Large ehtnic populations of say Greek for example. Melbourne has the largest population of Australians from a Greek background
next to Athens! Fact. No problems there.

The islamic elders seem to bury their heads in the sand, meanwhile suicide bombings are never condemmed, and the Australia is criticised by them for being invloved not only in Iraq, but Afghanistan too.

Sydneysiders too, will never forget the dancing in the streets here in the western suburbs after 11 Sep 01. The slogans on fences supporting OBL, and the death of the USA. Pretty sick stuff, and it thrives still.

Their kids, who are Australian born refer to themsselves as the country of their heritage, and are very anti-Australian. Its almost unbelieveble when you read about it, but then when you or someone you know become victims, then its a different story entirely.

So what can be done about it? Education you say?. Humm. Many fundimentalist islamic schools are thriving in Sydney, and what re they being taught? Take a guess.

A well known and respected Australian, Alan Jones has recently said " have we now because of milticulturism created an islamic community in Australia that is more aligned with islam than it is Australia". If so I find that a very dangerous reality, which is a very sorry thing to ponder.

As you are starred at as you walk by one can sense and feel the seething hated towards us. yes, and its for real.

Honestly, I wish it was not true.

Okay, at the end of the day, what do I personally want? Its simple. Equality and fairness for all, with us all having mutal respect for each other, no matter who we are, or what religion or country we come from. Strangly enough, it seems to be a one way street these days with lots of ‘taking‘ and no ‘giving‘ in return.

Again dont shoot me for passing on some information.

Regards,

Wes

 

[1feral1]

Good post!

Cheers,

Wes

 

[winchable]

I don‘t think anyone would describe those ME govt‘s as tolerant, so lets say we all agree on that.
I‘ve read the thread over a few times, it‘s all reasonable stuff.
I wouldn‘t describe the influx of immigrants who do not tolerate,(or actively pursue to end) as a sizeable majority.
The difference is you hear from the loudest and worst people not the quiet cab drivers, business owners, who while they may disagree with what could be interperted as western excess will not go as far as the few loudmouths have. It‘s unfortunate that people choose to focus on the negatives, but thems are the breaks i suppose.

Wes is just giving facts and personal accounts, so it‘s hardly racist of him either.

yadda yadda yadda,
Moderation in anything is the way to go, that goes for either side of this grate debate.
Equality, fairness etc. are great things to teach.
I believe it was major baker, who suggested that when you immigrate to a country you should be prepared to adopt the values etc. of said country then (while not losing their own identity).
I think there‘s probably more to that than what was said; in fact, that‘s an excellent point, probably the best point on the thread.
The problem is when people take the "not losing the identity point" to an extreme, it‘s just as bad as any other extreme. unfortunately it‘s those ignorants (that live everywhere) who use Canadian citizenship like a membership at Nubody‘s.

When my mother emigrated to the UK from Oman, she did it because of political turmoil (also because a "charming" canadian sailor paid her way there) and then after moving to Canada, while she didn‘t like many of the things she saw as excesses of the west (Halifax has alot of bars) hookers on Hollis st. etc. She didn‘t hate the entire west for it. She retained her Muslim identity while contributing in a meaningful way and raising two children (mostly on her own....GO NAVY) forcing us both to go to sunday school and mosque on Friday at lunch.
It wasn‘t all roses, when I turned 19 and discovered, that hey..halifax does have alot of bars, she wasn‘t pleased and voiced it..though I don‘t remmeber that... Nor was she pleased when our Masjid (local learned muslim leader) had his house firebombed, or when my sisters hajib was torn off and spat on, she also didn‘t appreciated being arrested when the police thought she was abducting me from school (re: picking me up from class), and I know I didn‘t appreciate it when our copy of the Qu‘Ran was stolen and torn to pieces at my highschool.

I forgot where i was going..oh yeah, well I consider that the best example of what the MAJORITY of immigrants to Canada do (i won‘t speak for any other country) and a fine example of an practical ideal situation in what was at times an ugly place.

 

[1feral1]

Interesting post Che. I am sorry you had to experience the dark side of some people‘s attitudes, and there is no excuse for that behaviour. It is totally un-Canadian.

Another Australian disgrace is the website www.islam.org.au ,or do a google search on islamic youth movement australia. Try www.english.aljazeera.net and have a squizz at the cartoons too, many portraying the US and its Allies as a wicked eveil enemy. Again I find this really twisted stuff, which all of us should educate ourselves on this ‘eyes and ears for the enemy‘ network.

You‘ll be suprised as whats on these Australian based sites, and what is being pounded into the heads of young influenceful muslims in Australia.

Ther is an article on www.islamicsydney.com called "Israel, the New Nazi Order", which also includes countries such as the USA, UK and yes Australia.

Again pretty scary stuff, and yes it TRULY concerns me, especially since thier HQ is about 45km from my house, not 4,500 km!

At least I am sure emails going in and out of these ‘terrorist supporting apparatus‘ are being monitered as you read this.

These people who run and support these websites are simply putting their faith before their country, and their alliance is not with this great southern land, but with a religion, and by the looks of it on the twisted fanatcal side of it at that, and we know what that spells, dont we. This too is scary, and in many cases quite frightening.

Really now, are these purveyers of anti-western and anti-Australianism ideals Australians, or right wing fanatical muslims living in, and sucking what they can out of Australia?

Since we all know and understasnd the terrorist threat is very much alive and well here in Sydney, WHEN, not if, there is an ATTACK here, this may indeed sadly set off a huge chain reaction agsinst islam throughout Australia, and especially here in Sydney, as the mainstream Australians are totally fed up with whats going on right under our noses.

A while back I surrendered leaflets to the authorities which were put on car windscreens claiming that Christians and Jews were infidels and were the true enemy of Islam, and other propaganda. Some of most bizarre anti-western stuff I have ever witnessed, and I compare it to what was being read back in say mid 1930‘s Germany.

These were from cars parked nearthe Lakemba mosque located in the ghettos of western Sydney. A good friend who is an electrician was in the area doing a job. He found one on his truck, and took others from surrounding vehilces.

In that same area he was set upon by 5 muslim young men, who stabbed him in the thy, as his legs dangled from a crawl space entrance he was servicing in a public hallway in a housing commission building. He reckons a quick call to 0-0-0 on his mobile phone saved his life. To keep them at bay til the police arrived (5 mins), he threw roofing tiles at them. Four of the five were caught and charged, and were let out on bail befoer the evening that day.

My friend lost a lot of blood, and had about 19 stitches to close his wound. He was off work for a few weeks. He now refuses to go into these areas, as he fears for his life, and in the past had to pay ‘protection‘ money to the local boys to ensure his truck would not be vandalised when not in attendance of his vehicle while doing a job.


Unfortuantly along with the radicals the sensible will be tarred with the same brush. Lets hope this never happens, but maybe there the hidden agenda by the fanatics to inspire more hatred of us ‘infidels‘, by in fact causing us to react to islam as a whole within our boundries.

This alone would create much heat from Indonesia and surrounding countries that have high islamic populations, hence alienating Australia more from its neighbours, and putting a tick in the box for the fundimentalists.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[winchable]

Perhaps now you better understand my standpoint on the situation?

The situation in Canada is very different from the one in Australia, which is probably due to Australias location in relation to Indonesia, but really I have no idea about the aussie sit so I won‘t speculate.

 

[1feral1]

Exactly Malik. Exactly. Now we both know where we both stand. Being in the region does play a great part on our anxiety here.

Please feel free to have a sticky-beek (Aussie slang for a look) at those sites.


Cheers,

Wes

 

[lostgrenadier]

Originally posted by S_Baker:
[qb] Lostgrenadier,

sounds nice doesn‘t it? However as with everything it is always better in the lab or as a theory. Since when has Canada been anything but "Anglo-Saxon?" I guess if you count the last 30 yrs. Before that it was exclusively settled by Europeans, right or wrong, that is the way it was.

My ancestors moved from Holland to Canada-West AKA Upper Canada, AKA Ontario. They came because they wanted freedom, not because they wanted to perpetuate the old hatreds they felt towards the Spanish, Germans, Danes, etc.... The problem with Canada‘s "multicultuarlism" is that a sizeable majority of people coming to Canada do not believe in the same things you and I do. Respect for other religions, respect for other peoples differences, respect for our western way of life. Please see all that has been said about the Pakistani "Al Qaeda" family, they despise western culture, condem us as being decadent, etc...well my answer to that is F U, don‘t come! I don‘t like Saudi Arabia, you don‘t see me emmigrating legally or illegally there....

My opinion is if you want to come to a western country you must embrace its values (without loosing your own identity), otherwise don‘t come... [/qb]

I did not in way shape or form mean to condone people coming here to perpetuate old fights and hatreds. Of course, if you come here, you should be expected to abide by our standards of tolerance and equality. Above all, leave your ethnic differences and hatreds behind. When I spoke of evolving and adapting, I meant it as a universal, not a one way street.

 

[winchable]

I think I may have inferred rather unfair things on your character in the past, wanted to clear that up. It‘s not that I‘m a total bleeding heart libertarian, I‘ve just had so much racism directed at my family and myself that I tend to get a bit twitchy when I sense it.

I‘ve seen them, believe me I couldn‘t advocate things like that. I generally chalk them up as not ambassadors of my faith, rather as propagandists of a sect within my faith. They‘re doing a service to their particular sect, while doing an awful disservice to the majority.

 

[1feral1]

Another good post Malik, and I agree 110% with what you said. Almost a 180 degree ‘role reversal‘, as what you sadly have experienced in Halifax by maistream Canadians, I have expereinced here by what I hope is a minority of muslims (while in a majority of muslim populated area, and in mainstream Aussie populated areas visited by a majority of muslims on warm holidays and weekends -- literally we are forced out of our own places of fun) a countrty mainly of North west European ancestry.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hey Wes , send the FARKer‘s after their site! :evil:

 

[Infanteer]

Just wondering if any of you have read "The Trouble with Islam" by Ishrad Manji, a Canadian Muslim women who immigrated here. I found it very good in getting to the root of that "civilizational" struggle I was talking about on another thread. I still think the current problem is something bigger than terrorism or oil, and Ms. Manji‘s assessment seems to be in agreement.

Here is the amazon link

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312326998/qid=1082612083/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4495574-4849469?v=glance&s=books

One reviewer had a pretty good summery of some important arguements

First, she rejects the notion, popular since 9/11, that the problem isn‘t Islam but that Islam has been ‘highjacked‘ by murderous psychopaths. No, she says: Mainstream Islam IS the culprit; it is cruel and even brutal toward women, toward Jews, toward Christians, toward all other infidels--even toward other Muslims. Dissident Muslims can be and have been beaten, imprisoned, killed. Muslims who aren‘t religious enough (e.g., those impious, kite-flying Afghanis) have been crushed. (Indeed, they were the Taliban‘s first victims: There‘s nothing fundamentalists hate more than apostates.)

As for the simplistic idea that "you mustn‘t confuse Islam with culture," she‘s all too well aware that Islam and such cultural horrors as Sharia law go hand in hand, each supporting the other. Sharia law, you may recall, means honor killings, punishing homosexuals by toppling walls on them, punishing adulteresses by stoning them to death, and defining rape victims as adulteresses.

She is clear on Islam‘s hermetic nature: Ask a question and get no answer, especially if you‘re a woman. Propose interpretation and be told the Koran is the literal word of God--and that the ‘hadiths‘ or secondary sources are likewise not to be questioned, analyzed, interpreted. The source of this closed view is, she says, "desert Islam"--the narrow, harsh Wahabist Islam of Saudi Arabia. Its hermeticism is only increasing. The Koran, according to fundamentalists, can‘t be translated but must be read in Arabic (some also believe that only Arabs are "real Muslims"), and the Wahabist madressas (religious schools) don‘t want many people to read it even in Arabic. They don‘t teach reading but foster illiteracy; their students must learn to recite Koranic verses by rote.

 

[1feral1]

Meanwhile in Sydney today another terrorist arrested in the muslim ghetto of Lakemba. Seems to be all related to the LET (Lashkar-E-Taiba)terror group and the Wahibi sect of the Sunni side of Islam. Do a google search on wahibi or wahibbi, and see what you turn up.

For todays news try www.new.com.au or www.dailtelegraph.com.au and views from the "opposing team‘s" prospective www.islamicsydney.com

Again today an islamc terror group called Yello-Red Overseas Organisation based out of Thailand, has promised an attack in Australia by months end for interfering with East Timor, Afghanistan, and Iraq, anlong with 7 other nations. The letter was delivered to the South Koreans today. I cant believe it, but this even made the US news. Go to www.foxnews.com

As I have said before, its a very real clear and present danger here, and the govt expects an attack at any moment. As I have said before, even our PM has said its just a matter of time.

Is Australia ready? No for the general public, but i feel the ADF and security forces are trained as as prepared as they can get. But the Australian public will deal when an attack comes the best way we can.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[muskrat89]

From today‘s "Arizona Republic"

Voices for peace
Join Muslims in raising yours

Apr. 21, 2004 12:00 AM


Once a matter broached only crudely, the question vexing the vast majority of Muslims throughout the world - Why do Muslims not denounce terrorism with more vigor? - has been mainstreamed.

In Britain, both the Roman Catholic cardinal of England and Wales and the archbishop of Canterbury said recently that few Muslim leaders, with scant courageous exceptions, raise a voice to condemn suicide bombings and other acts of fundamentalist terrorism.

A spokesman for that nation‘s Muslim Council responded that "Muslims and their leaders seem to have done little else other than condemn terror since the events of 9/11." But the impression is slow to change.

The caustic debate also simmers in the United States, of course. Here too it straddles the narrow chasm between critical judgment and suspected xenophobia.

And here the question is also raised: Where are the voices of Islam condemning the terrible acts blasphemously perpetrated in their faith‘s name?

A response will come from downtown Phoenix on Sunday, at Patriot‘s Square Park. We cannot say as yet how loud it will be, although we hope the rally will resound with the furious passion of peace.

The event - a rally against terror - will be sponsored by Valley Muslim leaders, notable among them M. Zuhdi Jasser, one of the most vigorous and articulate spokesmen in America denouncing indiscriminate violence in the name of Islam.

In an essay that appeared in The Republic on April 11, Jasser acknowledged the troubling issue that helped prompt the planned rally: "(W)hat increasingly troubles Americans is the absence of any palpable mass movement in the American Islamic community condemning outright the targeting and killing of innocent civilians."

That view, he said, is what he and other Muslims intend to start changing, beginning with Sunday‘s rally, which may be the nation‘s first Muslim-sponsored rally against terror.

Along with representatives of other faiths, Jasser will be joined by Muslim leaders of the Valley Council of Imams, local mosques and other Arizona Islamic organizations in condemning the indiscriminate violence of terrorism.

As chairman of the American Islamic Forum on Democracy, Jasser has placed himself at the forefront of the battle against the world‘s most volatile issue - terrorism spawned by perpetrators who claim to act in the name of Islam.

Let‘s not allow Jasser, and the imams who join him, to stand alone.