• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

U.S. 2012 Election

On Nov 6 Who Will Win President Obama or Mitt Romney ?

  • President Obama

    Votes: 39 61.9%
  • Mitt Romney

    Votes: 24 38.1%

  • Total voters
    63
  • Poll closed .
Redeye said:
Name me a business that doesn't make any use whatsoever of infrastructure that exists because of government intervention. Name me a business that has not in some way benefited from public education. Name me a business that hasn't benefited from the provision of police, fire services, or national defence in some way no matter how remote.

And on top of that, FFS, he didn't say business owners didn't build their businesses. He said they didn't build those things listed above.

And people wonder why I think people who get all their information from Faux are so friggin stupid?!

This is your last warning. I won't hesitate to ban you the next time. You've been warned enough about this.

You don't have the moral authority to make that implied judgement on anyone, whether here, or not.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
I think we are taking the contest between a lightweight (Obama) and an uncordinated middleweight (Romney - who does have more of a résumé than Obama, even including Obama being president) waaaay to seriously. Neither is likely to do what needs to be done ~ Obama will certainly fail, Romney most likely will. When America is is serious enough trouble the heavyweights will re-enter the lists and, after sending the congress to the political woodshed, will sort the country out. It wont matter, I'm hoping, if the heavweight is a Democrat or a Republican in 2016, she (I'm not counting Hillary Clinton) or he will be a centrist, a social moderate and an economic conservative ~ selected over the (many) dead bodies of the party bases.
 
recceguy said:
This is your last warning. I won't hesitate to ban you the next time. You've been warned enough about this.

You don't have the moral authority to make that implied judgement on anyone, whether here, or not.

Milnet.ca Staff

Very well. I'll make no statements to that effect. I will, however, continue to highlight the lies and distortions which emanate from that crap factory. I have the moral authority to do so.
 
Redeye said:
I have the moral authority to do so.
But having established yourself as the banner-waving "everything the left does is awesome," you have the exact same intellectual authority as the "everything Obama does is evil" camp.  :boring:

Both get ignored equally.

Just sayin'
 
Redeye said:
Very well. I'll make no statements to that effect. I will, however, continue to highlight the lies and distortions which emanate from that crap factory. I have the moral authority to do so.

Play whatever games you want, but you'll do it at your own peril.

There won't be any warning or explanation next time.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
By strict rules of grammar, "that" would refer to "the business".  But from the full context of the paragraph as spoken/written, it should be understood to refer to "the infrastructure".

Government depends on taking a "squeeze" of the revenue generated by an active economy.  Infrastructure development is government investing in its own revenue stream.  It is a grave mistake to deprecate the risks undertaken and the achievements of entrepreneurs, or to imply they are the ones who should feel beholden.  I suppose there is a large segment of the private and public (especially the latter) work force that quails at the thought of striking out on their own.  For them to claim that business is the one receiving the piggyback ride and that entrepreneurs should be grateful is ridiculous.

Government should be grateful that there are people willing to risk capital and jump through all the hoops and red tape.
 
Brad Sallows said:
By strict rules of grammar, "that" would refer to "the business".  But from the full context of the paragraph as spoken/written, it should be understood to refer to "the infrastructure".

Government depends on taking a "squeeze" of the revenue generated by an active economy.  Infrastructure development is government investing in its own revenue stream.  It is a grave mistake to deprecate the risks undertaken and the achievements of entrepreneurs, or to imply they are the ones who should feel beholden.  I suppose there is a large segment of the private and public (especially the latter) work force that quails at the thought of striking out on their own.  For them to claim that business is the one receiving the piggyback ride and that entrepreneurs should be grateful is ridiculous.

Government should be grateful that there are people willing to risk capital and jump through all the hoops and red tape.

Of course. that's what drives the economy. Societies accept that a system of government needs to exist to take that squeeze to pay for that infrastructure and anything else that society wants that is not provided efficiently by the market. It is those who are willing to take the initiative and risk  though that create wealth. They do, however, require things like infrastructure to do so, and the free market does not provide those things. That's why humans organized themselves with things like government.

The whole point is that no one ever said that business is a getting a piggyback ride. That's Fox ginning up a fake controversy based on selecting a specific extract from a much larger speech which solely highlights that in contrast to the efforts on the right to suggest that government is nothing but an impediment to everything, government does indeed have a role to play and that it's important make sure that it's focused on doing that job well.

The USA faces a massive (several billion dollar) deficit in infrastructure. It faces a need to reform its healthcare system. It faces a need to fix its budget mess. President Obama's decided to stump on the idea that it will take working together and everyone contributing to do so. That's what the speech was about. Nothing in there actually slammed businesses or entrepreneurs. It simply said that there's more to that. It's part of his campaign narrative that expecting people to pay in and work together is in fact what made America great. The fact that that is a message that will likely resonate with a large number of American voters who are seeing the impact of those things every single day is what terrifies the GOP, especially given that they're being somewhat effectively painted (whether true or not, but I have to admit to finding it true) as a party with no ideas except doubling down on what already hasn't worked and being more interested in protecting the interests of the wealthiest at the expense of the vast majority. Contrast that with what that speech actually said - that people who took risks succeeded because where it was necessary people worked together to help each other succeed. I cannot fathom for the life of me why an average working family would support the GOP, because the GOP will never, ever make them rich. At least, not with the policies they're peddling now.

It is to me the greatest evidence of the intellectual bankruptcy of American conservatives that they cannot counter that message head on, and instead have to resort to quotemining like this, creating fake controversy, supporting (OPENLY!) disenfranchisement of their opponents, and using their vast media propaganda machine to support those efforts. Are some on the left guilty of that? Maybe, though I can't think of any contemporary examples. I can't think of times where left organizations have been caught "accidentally" distributing false information about voting dates, locations or procedures, but I can think of several cases on the right. I can't think of such egregious quotemining by the media that tends to support the Democrats. I have seen hysterical leftists simple go on about the right being manifestly evil, and they're as annoying and useless as most of the right who base their "arguments" on chain emails or things they heard on Fox or Limbaugh or wherever and couldn't be bothered to fact check.

It distresses me that money is what drives the electoral processes, not discussion of ideas. It irks me that polarization has gotten so severe that there's no prospect of working together, and that leadership of one party has said that getting their opponents defeated is to them more important than the interests of the nation. I do not for one second belief that that is what the Founding Fathers of the United States of America had in mind. And what really, really bothers me is that the same thing is starting to happen in Canada. I don't want this system to spill over our borders.
 
Redeye said:
...
It is to me the greatest evidence of the intellectual bankruptcy of American conservatives that they cannot counter that message head on, and instead have to resort to quotemining like this, creating fake controversy, supporting (OPENLY!) disenfranchisement of their opponents, and using their vast media propaganda machine to support those efforts. Are some on the left guilty of that? Maybe, though I can't think of any contemporary examples. I can't think of times where left organizations have been caught "accidentally" distributing false information about voting dates, locations or procedures, but I can think of several cases on the right. I can't think of such egregious quotemining by the media that tends to support the Democrats. I have seen hysterical leftists simple go on about the right being manifestly evil, and they're as annoying and useless as most of the right who base their "arguments" on chain emails or things they heard on Fox or Limbaugh or wherever and couldn't be bothered to fact check.
...


There is, in fact, considerable discussion, on the political right, of ways and means to get America back on track ~ of course it's not on Fox News, US TV news is infotainment, not information; Fox is only marginally worse than the rest.

The Obama administration has been, is now, a political failure; it is bereft of practical ideas and appears, to me, to lack the guts to play real political hardball with a disgracefully partisan and obstructionist congress. I doubt a Romney administration will be much better, but I am about 99% certain it cannot be worse. The Obama campaign reflects its own fear of defeat and the Democrats' overall fear of change: the Democrats are reduced to mud slinging and fear mongering because they are out of ideas and they will not, perhaps cannot debate the ideas being offered by the loyal opposition.
 
Redeye said:
...
It distresses me that money is what drives the electoral processes, not discussion of ideas. It irks me that polarization has gotten so severe that there's no prospect of working together, and that leadership of one party has said that getting their opponents defeated is to them more important than the interests of the nation. I do not for one second belief that that is what the Founding Fathers of the United States of America had in mind. And what really, really bothers me is that the same thing is starting to happen in Canada. I don't want this system to spill over our borders.


But it was Barack Obama who took the money game to its current levels and it is Obama who is begging for more and more, driving the process even deeper into the cesspool.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
But it was Barack Obama who took the money game to its current levels and it is Obama who is begging for more and more, driving the process even deeper into the cesspool.

Barack Obama got Citizens United to become reality? I must have missed that.

I agree that his administration has been largely a failure - at least from the perspective of an outsider that expects more. They've been unable to play that hardball. They've been unable to capitalize on the paralysis of the Congress )which should have people rioting in the streets - they're paying for this nonsense!) 33 pointless "repeal Obamacare" votes?! THIRTY THREE?! Americans regardless of party affiliation should have their torches and pitchforks out.

I have to disagree about being bereft of ideas. There's certainly no silver bullets, but there's been some ideas. PPACA was a start at fixing one problem. The list of things President Obama has managed to do is widely available. Is it awe-inspiring? No.

What has been highlighted to me is that the system is rotten to the core, and the problems are beyond the ability of an administration to change, particularly when partisanship prevents any real progress. So I share, to a degree, the sentiment that Romney couldn't do much better. I do think he could do worse though, but I think his campaign is flailing badly enough that unless President Obama makes some significant real gaffe he's probably in a reasonably comfortable position.

Lots of discussions at my current workplace revolve around American politics and the mindset of many of the Americans I work with is very different than Canadians - it seems as though culturally they simply assume that government is incompetent and cannot possibly be competent enough to do anything right. That's what it's easy to argue against things like healthcare reform, and why people are easily misled by the aforementioned tripe. And why Newsertainment (or whatever you might choose to call it) works.
 
There is nothing especially wrong with the system - it is not quite as good as ours, but it's not bad - what's wrong is the people leading, if we can use that term, and manipulating it. And the lack of leadership, the failure of leadership starts with President Obama. Replace him and you can start to fix the rest.
 
Redeye said:
I cannot fathom for the life of me why an average working family would support the GOP, because the GOP will never, ever make them rich. At least, not with the policies they're peddling now.

It's not up to the GOP, or the Democrats, or anyone else who forms a government, to make anybody rich.
What they need to be doing is the infrastructure thing; pave the roads, keeps the lights on, keep the Klingons at bay and then get the hell out of the way so that people can have the opportunity to make themselves rich.

Conservatives -at least my brand of conservatives- don't have a problem with government. It's BIG -read intrusive- government that needs to go away.
My  :2c:
 
:goodpost:

and +300 to you, sir for such a consise rendering of the point.
 
Bass ackwards said:
What they need to be doing is the infrastructure thing; pave the roads, keeps the lights on, keep the Klingons at bay and then get the hell out of the way so that people can have the opportunity to make themselves rich.


Typical pandering of the conservatives.  Not even a mention of the Romulan threat.  Probably bought off with Romulan Ale.

I want to know who's looking out for the Gorn menace.


 
Bass ackwards said:
It's not up to the GOP, or the Democrats, or anyone else who forms a government, to make anybody rich.
What they need to be doing is the infrastructure thing; pave the roads, keeps the lights on, keep the Klingons at bay and then get the hell out of the way so that people can have the opportunity to make themselves rich.

Conservatives -at least my brand of conservatives- don't have a problem with government. It's BIG -read intrusive- government that needs to go away.
My  :2c:

Which is more or less the brand of conservative I was until they started going off the deep end on social issues (which is intrusive big government) and deciding that that was more important than those things we agree are important. When you look in particular at the sorry state of conservatives they look absolutely insane to me.

As far as govt making people rich, what I was implying is that the GOP somehow persuades people to support policies that will in no way benefit them. I was in a lively debate about estate tax in the US with someone who was very passionately against the very idea until realizing they will not in any way affect him or the vast majority of Americans. I'm not a fan of them either especially (though proper estate planning mitigates them substantially anyhow) but when pressed on why it was such an issue he was basically unable to answer once he understood the whole picture.
 
It is a myth that a free market "does not provide those things".  An accurate statement is that free markets "do not always provide things in the quantity and at the cost desired by some people".

Obama's speech is not merely an homage to cooperation or the voice of a centrist asking all to come together.  Fit it into the big picture where it belongs: he wants enlarged government, with more power and responsibility.  Period.  If he doesn't get his way, then "he won" and he will go his own way.  The controversy is that the media will not highlight his authoritarianism.

The US has budget problems because it promised too many benefits to too many people, and spends too much money on matters that are not properly the responsibility of the federal government.  The advocates of more power and responsibility can not add that burden and then complain they do not have enough resources to discharge it.  They created the problem.

I can't think of a time when I have read so much written by so many Democrat supporters who are so blind to the lies, misrepresentations, strong-arm tactics, character assassinations, and out-of-context quotemining of their own "team" members.

Obama is a latter-day King James II.  Progressivism is his religion instead of Catholicism; he draws his advisers from academia rather than Gallican Catholicism.  Like James who sought to emulate Louis XIV, Obama seeks to emulate a rather French model of governance (authoritarian, with a slightly different flavour of nobility).  As during the time of James, the ideas of the favoured religion are to be promulgated and the voices of dissent are to be marginalized rather than debated.  Obama's gambit, like that of James, has sparked counter-revolution at several levels.  Obama, like James, does not enjoy sufficiently broad support and has overreached beyond what the people will generally tolerate.  I predict that Obama will fail and be cast aside, and there will be substantial transformation in the US - but at the hands of Republicans, not Democrats.

 
>I was in a lively debate about estate tax in the US with someone who was very passionately against the very idea until realizing they will not in any way affect him or the vast majority of Americans.

And that is what divides me from a great many people.  My operative measures for what is right do not include a simple calculation of whether my interests are advanced or degraded.
 
My sense, from the few months I spend each year in Texas, is that:

1. Most Americans are Bass ackwards style conservatives - they know that government is necessary; they want it to do its job, which includes helping those in (real) need - or, at least, coordinating and facilitating (through the tax code) that help, but they do not want it to intrude too far into their lives or into the life of the nation; but

2. Most Americans are, also, disengaged - partially because they are sick and tired of Washington and partially because they do not understand, yet, that there is a crisis.

When they get engaged: WATCH OUT, Washington!


Edit: typo
 
Brad Sallows said:
It is a myth that a free market "does not provide those things".  An accurate statement is that free markets "do not always provide things in the quantity and at the cost desired by some people".

At a level that would be optimal for virtually anyone more like. I can't really think of a single significant infrastructure project anywhere that didn't take substantial government involvement because the free market failed to deliver. Major capital projects require enormous capital outlays with extremely long payback periods, which doesn't really entice capital that is in search of quick returns. Please, cite an example if you know of one.

Brad Sallows said:
Obama's speech is not merely an homage to cooperation or the voice of a centrist asking all to come together.  Fit it into the big picture where it belongs: he wants enlarged government, with more power and responsibility.  Period.  If he doesn't get his way, then "he won" and he will go his own way.  The controversy is that the media will not highlight his authoritarianism.

Despite the rhetorical appeal of this, I find it to be nonsense. An appeal to people to get to work on making the government work in the way it's supposed to has nothing to do with authoritarianism. The fact that he didn't want to take the hardball approach is pretty good evidence that he isn't authoritarian (so is the complete lack of anything he's done that is especially authoritarian, particularly in the context of other administrations). That's why the right's agitprop machine must constantly lie.

Brad Sallows said:
The US has budget problems because it promised too many benefits to too many people, and spends too much money on matters that are not properly the responsibility of the federal government.  The advocates of more power and responsibility can not add that burden and then complain they do not have enough resources to discharge it.  They created the problem.

Problem is, most of those things are either a) things the public wants or b) political kryptonite. The idea of replacing Medicare which a voucher system that will be rapidly eroded by inflation is about as palatable as slashing the defense budget, which is full of a ridiculous amount of waste and consumes IIRC 1/4 of the budget. Likewise, the idea of suggesting to people that if they want this stuff they'd better pony up doesn't seem to work there either.

Brad Sallows said:
I can't think of a time when I have read so much written by so many Democrat supporters who are so blind to the lies, misrepresentations, strong-arm tactics, character assassinations, and out-of-context quotemining of their own "team" members.

How about some examples? I've not seen too many, which isn't to say it doesn't happen, but it happens on the Dem side nowhere near like it seems to on the right. What the left has is a bunch of blowhard whiners who have unrealistic ideas, and a bunch who freak out about "fascism" sounding as moronic as those who go on about "Marxism" on the right.

Brad Sallows said:
Obama is a latter-day King James II.  Progressivism is his religion instead of Catholicism; he draws his advisers from academia rather than Gallican Catholicism.  Like James who sought to emulate Louis XIV, Obama seeks to emulate a rather French model of governance (authoritarian, with a slightly different flavour of nobility).  As during the time of James, the ideas of the favoured religion are to be promulgated and the voices of dissent are to be marginalized rather than debated.  Obama's gambit, like that of James, has sparked counter-revolution at several levels.  Obama, like James, does not enjoy sufficiently broad support and has overreached beyond what the people will generally tolerate.  I predict that Obama will fail and be cast aside, and there will be substantial transformation in the US - but at the hands of Republicans, not Democrats.

:facepalm: That's all I got for this. See, I'd ascribe most of those traits more to the right. You can see it emerging in Canada, look at the way scientists who want to question the wisdom of going full-bore at tar sands production have been marginalized. There is a chance that the Prime Minister is blowing political capital in the wrong places. Is it full bore authoritarianism? No. Does it make me watch politicians more, and will it influence how I vote next election? Absolutely. Will it broadly affect the public that don't really care generally? I don't know.
 
Redeye,

Just a health advisory from a concerned bystander.  You really should try to limit the number of times you belt yourself in the head each day.  Keep it up and you will knock yourself silly..........
 
Back
Top