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Turmoil in Libya (2011) and post-Gaddafi blowback

The following story from the Globe and Mail is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Ottawa prepares to join effort to aid Libyan opposition

CAMPBELL CLARK

OTTAWA— From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Feb. 28, 2011 9:15PM EST
Last updated Tuesday, Mar. 01, 2011 7:36AM EST

Ottawa is drawing up plans to take part in an international effort to airlift aid to opposition-held areas of Libya, as the world wrestles with the question of how much military muscle it will use to side with protesters against Moammar Gadhafi’s regime.

Beyond sanctions, the pace of international pressure quickened on Monday: The United States repositioned air and naval assets in the region; British Prime Minister David Cameron said he would work with allies to establish a no-fly zone and France announced it was sending planes with medical assistance to the rebel-controlled city of Benghazi.

UN hears Canada, too, stepped up its military preparations, sending a 13-person reconnaissance team to Malta, where four Canadian Forces planes are stationed to assist efforts to evacuate Canadians after Britain and Germany sent military rescue missions into Libya over the weekend. CTV News reported that it has been told Canadian special forces are also on the ground in Libya.

Western countries including Canada now back the idea of entering Libyan territory, at least to evacuate citizens or deliver aid, effectively ignoring the Gadhafi regime’s claims to territorial sovereignty – but they have not yet agreed on the question of whether it will be extended to direct military intervention such as enforcing a no-fly zone.

In Libya, Gadhafi troops escalated attacks against anti-government forces using fighter jets, special forces and regular troops in what could become an all-out civil war. The Libyan leader’s troops clashed with rebels in two important cities, Misurata and Zawiyah, both within about 200 kilometres of Tripoli, but rebels, armed with automatic rifles, were said to be putting up stiff resistance.

Now Western nations, moving to impose sanctions under a UN resolution, have taken the rare step of backing forays into Libya’s territory to effectively side with the rebels. The question is how far they will take it.

France’s Prime Minister, François Fillon, said his country is sending two planes with doctors, nurses and medical supplies to opposition-held areas in Libya’s east in what he called the beginning of a massive operation of humanitarian support.

Canada is drawing up contingency plans that include the possible use of military planes in Malta – two massive C-17 aircraft and two smaller Hercules transports – to airlift international aid to rebel-held areas of Libya.

But the question of whether a humanitarian mission would require troops for protection is complicating planning, because it raises the issue of how far Canada and other countries will go in sending troops into Libya’s territory to assist opposition-controlled areas during a civil war, sources said. Ottawa is considering several options as countries co-ordinate aid to follow the French lead.

In a speech to the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon signalled that Canada “stands ready” to help the humanitarian mission. He told reporters later that Ottawa is now developing plans.

“The UN resolution [on sanctions] obviously as well calls for humanitarian aid, so we’re very supportive of the fact the French will be going forward with that,” he said. “We’re certainly prepared to give a hand in that regard, and I think as the days go forward we’ll be better positioned to appreciate the different options that are there as they’re being more refined.”

But while Britain’s Mr. Cameron called on allies to work on plans to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya to ground the Gadhafi regime’s air force, Mr. Cannon said there was no consensus among allies on that, and would not say whether Canada supports such a move.

“It’s one thing to say ‘no-fly’ but it’s another element be able to apply it and put it into effect,” he said.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper spoke by telephone with U.S. President Barack Obama Monday night, and both issued statements saying they had agreed to co-ordinate in expanding humanitarian efforts and in considering “other options should they become necessary.”

Moves to impose UN sanctions including an arms embargo, travel bans on Mr. Gadhafi and associates, and freezing of assets have already been imposed by most Western nations. In Canada, the federal government imposed a unilateral ban on all financial transactions with the Libyan government, saying it had already blocked attempts by the regime to withdraw unspecified sums.

Government House Leader John Baird said the measures do not amount to a full ban on commercial activities by Canadian companies, but that they will be prohibited from making any payments to the Libyan regime. Canadian firms with major operations in Libya, including oil firm Suncor Energy and engineering giant SNC-Lavalin, said they were studying the sanctions, and declined to comment on what impact they have had.

“Obviously we don’t want to see commercial operations flowing money into the regime at this time that would be used – either to be stolen, or even worse, used to finance the violence against the Libyan people,” Mr. Baird said.

 
The report was written prior to current events, but why release it?

Remember, Canada is not respected by the world as proven by it's inability to get a seat on the UN Security Council. It is a national disgrace brought to you by the mean, sneaky Harper government.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/adopt+report+praising+Libya+human+rights+record/4362346/story.html

As bloodshed continues, UN set to adopt report praising Libya's human rights record

By Steven Edwards, Postmedia News February 28, 2011

UNITED NATIONS — The UN Human Rights Council is set to adopt a major report hailing Libya's human rights record — despite moving to suspend the Arab country's council membership amid an international outcry over attacks on civilians.

The report shows countries applauding and commending Libya as they note "with appreciation the country's commitment to upholding human rights on the ground."

Even Canada "welcomed improvements" Libya made "in its respect for human rights," according to the report, which is scheduled for a vote before the Geneva-based 47-member council March 18.

But the Canadian government also made a number of critically framed recommendations to the Gaddafi regime, including one calling for reinforced measures aimed at fully investigating torture claims.

The 23-page report was compiled as part of the council's "Universal Periodic Review" — a process the UN bills as a rigorous scrutiny of the human rights records of each UN member state every four years.

Highlighting what it called the council's "hypocrisy," UN Watch, a Geneva-based monitoring group, on Monday called on the body's president to withdraw the report.

"It's now clear that the session on Libya was largely a fraud," said Hillel Neuer of Montreal, UN Watch executive director.

"The council should schedule a new session in which members would tell the truth about the Gaddafi regime's heinous crimes, which were committed over the four decades he's been in power, yet ignored by the UN."

According to UN Watch, topping the list of recalled witnesses should be the Libyan diplomats who defected last week and "admitted that the Gaddafi regime is a gross violator of human rights."

The UN launched the council in 2006 to replace a discredited Human Rights Commission, which had come to be manipulated by countries with poor human rights records. Canadian-led Eye on the UN was among other monitoring groups that on Monday claimed the council has also lost its legitimacy.

"The Universal Periodic Review system was touted as the No. 1 innovation because everyone would be scrutinized equally," said Anne Bayefsky, Eye on the UN chief, and senior fellow with New York-based Hudson Institute.

"But human rights abuser states caught on early that the rules enable them to line up countries that support them to speak on their behalf. The result is that human rights abuser states come away from the process looking like they were open-minded and had subjected themselves to scrutiny."

Iran, Sudan and Cuba are among countries that heaped praise on Libya's human rights record — despite themselves having poor human rights records, according to monitoring groups.

Libya should "continue its efforts to promote women's rights in social and public life, and protect them from violence," recommends Iran, which last year faced international criticism for sentencing a woman accused of adultery to death by stoning.

Sudan, which itself faces international sanctions for human rights abuses, said Libya should "continue its efforts to address the adverse effects of the sanctions imposed (on Libya) during the 1990s."

Cuba felt Libya was on the right track with its "positive efforts to increase the culture of the human rights of the Libyan people."

Israel was alone in not bothering with the diplomatic protocol of "welcoming" the report ahead of making critical remarks.

Israel notes that Libya's council membership "served to cover the ongoing systematic suppression, in law and in practice, of fundamental rights and freedoms," the report said bluntly.
© Copyright (c) Postmedia News

Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/bloodshed+continues+adopt+report+praising+Libya+human+rights+record/4362346/story.html#ixzz1FMS3v4xj
 
Saw the weirdest thing on the info bar while watching CTV news this morning:

"Gaddafi placed $2 billion in Canadian banks after vist with then Prime Minister Paul Martin in 2004" (paraphrase)

While I doubt Prime Minister Martin personally invited Gaddafi to open a savings account, I would be very interested to know the meaning and circumstances behind this. Was Gaddafi being invited or encouraged to invest in Canada?  Is this money deposited in accounts owned by Gaddafi? The Lybian government? Corporations (real or shell) headquartered in Lybia? Is it in Canadian government bonds? Canadian corporate stocks and bonds?

This is a story that really needs to be followed up.

 
Canada special forces on standby for Libya: report
(AFP) – 2 hours ago

OTTAWA — Canadian special forces are "on standby" for deployment in Libya, local media said Tuesday, as a reconnaissance team set out to help evacuate foreign nationals from the chaotic North African country.

"Canadian special forces (JTF2) are 'on standby' to depart for Libya," Le Devoir newspaper's military reporter Alec Castonguay said in a Twitter message.

Canada's defence department would not confirm the report.

"For reasons of national security and to ensure their safety, the Canadian Forces doesn't discuss the operations of its special operations forces unit," the military's spokeswoman Jenna Alexander said.

"So we can't confirm they would be deployed to Libya."

On Monday, the Canadian military sent a 13-member reconnaissance team and medics to Malta along with two C-130J cargo jets and two C-17 jumbo transport aircraft to assist in the evacuation of foreign nationals from Libya.

 
sean m please supply links to the articles you are quoting to properly accredit the information...it makes it easier to look up and does not violate Copywrite rules....
 
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110301/libya-rescue-aborted-110301/

CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Tue. Mar. 1 2011 2:28 PM ET
A Canadian Forces C-130J Hercules aircraft was denied landing rights in Tripoli Tuesday and had to return to Malta without the load of oil workers that officials had hoped to evacuate.

The military transport departed Malta on Tuesday for the Libyan capital, but was waved off before it arrived.

"There basically wasn't any ramp space for the Hercules aircraft to land at Tripoli airport," said CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife.

"It is very, very busy. There are planes coming in constantly and by the time the Hercules aircraft left Malta and got to Tripoli airport there was nowhere for it to land and it had to turn around and go back to Malta."

The plane has now returned to Malta and another flight is scheduled for Wednesday. It isn't clear which company the oil workers are employed by, or how many there are.

Meanwhile, an order has just been issued to send a Canadian frigate from Halifax to the region.

Fife reported that the frigate will only be used for evacuation and humanitarian purposes, not military ones. The vessel will be in the region in case the unrest continues to spread into other countries.

It could take about a week to get to the region from Halifax.

Canada has had trouble organizing evacuations for the Canadians stuck in Libya over the past two weeks.

At least two charter planes landed in Tripoli but left empty, because there were apparently no Canadians at the airport waiting to be flown out.

And a C-17 military transport was denied landing rights in Libya last week and sat on the tarmac in Rome for days awaiting the necessary approvals.

Now Canada has two C-17 transport planes and one C-130 stationed in Malta, making rescue efforts much easier, said Fife.

Canada also has a military reconnaissance team and nine combat medics in Malta.
 
With a slightly different "spin" and without the positive statement re the Frigate, here is a story from the National Post website reproduced under the Fair Dealings Provision of the Copyright Act:

Canada mulls military response to Libya crisis

REUTERS/Asmaa Waguih

Matthew Fisher, Postmedia News · Tuesday, Mar. 1, 2011

The Harper government is close to deciding whether to send a warship to the Mediterranean Sea where it would assist with whatever NATO or the United Nations decides to do to try to influence events in Libya.

However, the nearest available Canadian frigate is 6,500 kilometres away in Halifax, and would not be ready to put to sea for about a week.

So if Ottawa does dispatch a ship, the actual decision on whether its mission would be humanitarian or involve military intervention would not have to be taken for nearly a month. By then it is possible that the Libyan dictator, Moammar Gadhafi, will have been ousted from power.

That timeline sounds long, but it actually took more time than that to amass a multinational naval armada in the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf after the 9/11 attacks and during the wars in 1991 and 2003 against Iraq.

An option that the Harper government is apparently not actively considering is sending CF-18 Hornet fighter jets to help NATO or the UN enforce a possible no-fly zone over Libya. This is in keeping with the government’s decision not to send Canadian fighter jets to Afghanistan although almost every other NATO country with a modern air force has done so.

Nobody will speak about it officially, but it is a virtual certainty that Canada has already sent Joint Task Force 2 special troops to the Mediterranean area.

However, their participation is likely to be limited to protecting Canadian transport aircraft that might be sent from Malta to rescue Canadian oil workers in the Libyan desert, or to assist in a French-led plan to deliver aid to parts of that country now controlled by forces opposed to Gadhafi.

While Canadians are as mesmerized as others by what has transpired across the Middle East so far, they may not see any obvious connection between their own interests and the tumult there.

But there are. Canada is likely to be one of the few western beneficiaries of the uncertainty that is sweeping the Arabian Peninsula and North Africa.

The reason is, of course, oil. For decades to come the tarsands are going to be Canada’s trump card every time there is volatility in international energy markets.

Congressman John Garamendi of California called on Monday for Washington to respond to the crises in the Middle East by developing a national clean energy plan that “prioritizes the need to (1) Make It In America, (2) transition away from dirty fossil fuels and (3) secure energy independence.”

These are laudable goals popularized over the past year or two by New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman. But even in the unlikely event of draconian legislation being passed in Washington to encourage biofuels or solar, geothermal or wind power, the U.S. is many years away from achieving any of this.

The strong likelihood is that the new regimes emerging from the wrecks of the old, mostly pro-American dictatorships and monarchies in that troubled region will be less likely to want to do Washington any favours regarding energy, or anything else.

The upshot of this is that the American need for clean oil will be superseded by its dire need to maintain access to any reliable supply of oil.

The events of the past two months, and dramas still unfolding in Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Jordan and oil-rich countries such as Libya, Oman and a few of the Gulf sheikdoms, make it more and more obvious that there is going to be a keen demand for Canada’s so-called “dirty oil” for years to come.

Viewed through this prism, if the U.S. does not want the kind of oil that Canada has to offer, China and India, with huge economic ambitions to fuel, almost certainly will.

So without even trying, Canada, with the second-largest oil reserves in the world, is well-placed to profit from the suffering and uncertainty in Tripoli and elsewhere across the Middle East.
 
And this from the Globe and Mail, reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act, takes the story a couple of steps further down the road. Note, it is my opinion that this is where the media can make mistakes in content and interpretation in its collective desire to get the story "firstest with the mostest."

With special forces on ground, Ottawa sends frigate to Libyan coast

STEVEN CHASE

OTTAWA— Globe and Mail Update
Published Tuesday, Mar. 01, 2011 12:24PM EST
Last updated Tuesday, Mar. 01, 2011 3:04PM EST

The Canadian government has dispatched HMCS Charlottetown to the Mediterrean Sea to aid in the international response to the crisis in Libya.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced the frigate's departure Tuesday afternoon in the House of Commons.

The ship leaves from Halifax Wednesday to take part in the international and Canadian evacuations of foreign citizens from the strife-torn North African country.

Gadhafi a 'mad man,' UN hears Earlier Wednesday, The Globe and Mail learned that Canadian special forces soldiers are playing an active role in Ottawa response to the crisis.

The government has been using military aircraft to ferry Canadian citizens and diplomats out of Libya to Malta since last week and it's believed soldiers belonging to Special Operations Forces have assisted in providing security for the operation.

Other countries have used special forces soldiers for similar purposes. Britain has used commandos to escort its planes and protect them while they are on the ground.

The value of soldiers from Canadian Special Operations Forces Command – which includes the elite Joint Task Force 2 unit as well as the Special Operations Regiment – is that they can be quickly deployed because they are self-sufficient. They're not designed for lengthy operations but do not need a wagonload of logistical support to accompany them.

Canada has been operating Hercules aircraft and a huge C-17 Globemaster plane out of Malta, where the federal government has set up a temporary base of operations to respond to the situation in Libya.

It's believed Canadian special forces soldiers have also been operating out of Malta, an island nation about 360 kilometres north of Libya in the Mediterranean Sea.

Special forces can provide a variety of services from first aid to reconnaissance, evacuation – what the military calls “assisted departures – as well as protective security. Troops are trained as medics, drivers, signalers and a range of other jobs.

The Canadian Forces refuse to discuss special forces operations but it's believed these troops are being used to safeguard the federal government's efforts to rescue Canadians, a necessary tool in a country where the machinery of government has broken down and criminal activity is increasing.

Canada suspended its diplomatic presence in Libya late last week amid a crackdown by Moammar Gadhafi’s regime against pro-democracy protestors.

A Canadian C-17 aircraft carried the Canadian ambassador, five consular officials and 18 other Canadians out of the country at that time. The plane's 46 passengers also included British citizens and officials from the Australia government's diplomatic mission in Libya.

The Prime Minister's Office said Tuesday that Stephen Harper called Maltese Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi to thank him for hosting Canadian Forces aircraft and personnel as this country works to extract the remaining Canadian citizens from Libya.
 
This also sounds like serious overkill to me--what shape are Libyan air defences likely to be in?

F-22s Could Test Libya's Air Defenses
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a62fed3fb-0215-4903-bc7b-51fb8abf9993

If the U.S. decides to establish a no-fly zone over Libya, the effort could be led by F-22s in their first combat assignment.

The F-22 and some cyberoperations would be employed in shutting down Libya’s air defense system which is comprised “almost exclusively” of Russian-built SA-6 surface-to-air missiles, says a former Air Force chief of staff. The SAMs are like those that opposed NATO forces involved in operations in Serbia and that shot down the single F-117 fight lost in combat.

U.S. aircraft carriers are moving to the Western Mediterranean, but operations in Afghanistan will not permit them to maintain a long-term no-fly zone over Libya. That task would fall to the Air Force, he says.

A likely scenario would have shorter-range fighters flying out of Egypt, using facilities like Cairo West where multi-national Bright Star exercises are conducted.

“We have a great relationship with the Egyptian air force and army and they are the ones in charge of the country,” the veteran fighter pilot says.

They will not operate from bases in Libya occupied by insurgents because of the danger of shoulder-fired missiles, anti-U.S. protests and sabotage.

Larger aircraft, such as tankers, E-8 Joint Stars and E-3  AWACS could operate from Oman, Tunisia or Qatar to establish orbits off Libya’s shores.

The establishment of a no-fly zone would require “a massive SAM roll-back effort, like that imposed on Iraq [during the Northern and Southern Watch operations after the first Iraq conflict in 1991],” the former Air Force official says. “Every time the Iraqis turned on a radar, we hosed them.”

“Any cyberoperations would be part of the SAM roll-back radar and computer jamming program, but it would be a small part,” he says. Other targets would be communications systems. The “heavy  weight of effort required” to impose a round-the-clock no fly zone would likely require the “first actual use of the F-2 2… and that might well be the guys [stationed at] Langley [AFB, Virginia].”

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
.... what shape are Libyan air defences likely to be in?
One read on that question, via Wired.com's Danger Room....
.... “Libya possesses one of the most robust air-defense networks on the African continent, falling second only to Egypt in terms of coverage and operational systems,” Sean O’Connor, an air-defense analyst, wrote in a May 2010 assessment. “Libyan strategic SAM assets are primarily arrayed along the coastline, ostensibly defending the bulk of the Libyan population and preventing foreign incursion into Libyan airspace.”

With rebels holding several cities, it’s unclear how many SAMs are still operational. Last May, O’Connor counted 31 long-range SAM sites and 17 radars belonging to the Libyan air force. The bulk of this “strategic missile force comprises Soviet-designed SA-2, SA-3 and SA-5 systems dating from the 1970s and 1980s. In addition, the Libyan army possesses a large number of short-range SA-6, SA-8, SA-9, SA-13 and Crotale missiles.

For its part, the Libyan fighter force in theory numbers around 200 planes — mostly old Soviet and French designs. Defectors flew two Libyan Mirage F.1 fighters to Malta. Another Libyan fighter crew bailed out of their Su-22 jet rather than follow orders to bomb protesters. It’s likely very few Libyan fighters remain operational. Those that do are mostly being used to attack rebels, and wouldn’t pose much of a challenge to U.S. and allied planes.

By the same token, O’Connor doubts Libyan SAMs would survive long in a shooting war. “Advances in electronic warfare and [Electronic Counter-Measures] have made many of the older Soviet-era SAM systems obsolete in a modern air combat environment. Libya’s … systems are no exception.” ....
 
They just wont stop updating their stories. The following from the National Post website is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act:

Canada to send HMCS Charlottetown to Libya

Tobi Cohen, Postmedia News · Tuesday, Mar. 1, 2011

OTTAWA — Canada is sending the frigate HMCS Charlottetown to Libya to help in the ongoing evacuation efforts in that troubled North African country, the federal government announced Tuesday afternoon.

On Tuesday, a Canadian C-130 Hercules en route to assist in the evacuation was turned back to its base in nearby Malta shortly after taking off.

Government sources say there was not enough room at the airport in the Libyan capital, Tripoli, to accommodate the aircraft at the time and that it would try again later.

Canada also has sent two C-17 strategic aircraft as well as 22 military personnel comprised of military police, medical staff and a 13-member Operational Liaison and Reconnaissance Team.

“An OLRT is a group of (Canadian Forces) experts deployed in the initial stages of a mission to assess the situation, liaise with allies and other agencies and establish lines of communication,” Lt. Len Hickey of the Canadian navy said.

“If necessary, a joint task force headquarters and other capabilities follows on to facilitate the evacuation . . . from the emergency area to a safe haven.”

Canada also is expected to announce plans to send a Canadian patrol frigate, HMCS Charlottetown, to the region.

Over the last few days, Canada has stepped up its military presence in the violence-plagued country which is on the verge of civil war.

It also has imposed a number of sanctions against Libyan despot Col. Moammar Gadhafi and his regime, including a travel ban and a freeze on Libyan assets. Canadian banks reportedly have frozen approximately $2 billion in Libyan assets already.
 
milnews.ca said:
One read on that question, via Wired.com's Danger Room....
... SAM sites and 17 radars belonging to the Libyan air force. The bulk of this “strategic missile force ...
with a comment like that I don't know how much this chap really knows; may be an editorial error...
or maybe I don't know squat about air power - are air defence assets strategic?

Regardless, the Libyan regime has money - enough to buy newer systems - so we shouldn't underestimate its AD capabilities.

cheers,
 
The following story from the Ottawa Citizen's web site is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:


Canadian frigate leaves for Libya
 
Postmedia News March 2, 2011 10:09 AM 

HALIFAX — A Canadian navy frigate and its crew of 240 officers set sail Wednesday as part of an international show of military strength against the regime of Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi.

HMCS Charlottetown departed in the morning from Halifax for what is expected to be a six-day journey to the African nation, which has been beset by violence during a bloody uprising against the long-ruling strongman.

The frigate and its crew will join two Canadian C-130 Hercules aircraft, which are already in the area, and are capable of landing on shorter, unpaved terrain. Canada also has one C-17 in nearby Malta along with 22 military police officers, medics and reconnaissance personnel.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay has said the ship carries a Sea King helicopter and is prepared to go beyond simply removing the 250 Canadians, who are still believed to be stuck in Libya.

Postmedia News has confirmed that JTF2, Canada's elite special forces unit, has also been sent to the region, something the government has not publicly acknowledge.


Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Canadian+frigate+leaves+Libya/4371356/story.html#ixzz1FSOI9Ex2
 
MarkOttawa said:
F-22s Could Test Libya's Air Defenses

This also sounds like serious overkill to me--what shape are Libyan air defences likely to be in?
Hypothetically.....if the US announced it was going with F-15s and F-18s would your headline have been:

"US refuses to use overpriced, untested aircraft in operations!"?
 
A couple of images of Libyan air defense sites near Tobruk. If this is an example of the state of their system a no fly zone should be a piece of cake. The question I must ask though is would we be so quick to intervene in places like Iran or Syria to support democracy protestors ?

800xj.jpg


800xz.jpg
   

800xg.jpg


 
Start of a rather lengthy post at the CDFAI's 3Ds Blog:

Gunboat Diplomacy
http://www.cdfai.org/the3dsblog/?p=124

From the Docks of Nova Scotia
To the Shores of Tripoli…

HMCS Charlottetown is setting sail for the Mediterranean...

Mark
Ottawa
 
WRT a western imposed No-Fly Zone in Libya.  Say we (let's say NATO as the lead international group running the operation) shoot down a couple of Libyan aircraft.  Gadhafi then claims this as "proof" that this isn't any sort of "rebel" uprising but rather a foreign-led invasion of their country.  He then has his forces begin the wholesale slaughter of "foreign-backed forces" (i.e. all civilians in any areas that have rebelled against his rule).  What do we do then?  Do we face up to the (unintended but possibly predictable) consequences of our actions and counter with a full ground invasion to defend the civilians?  Do we have the will and capability to do so?  What are the legalities? 

I'd love to see Gadafhi gone as much as the next person but is the reality of the situation more complex than it might seem on the surface?  Just playing devils advocate here.
 
A No-Fly proclamation is not bloodless....

1. Take out all radars (definitely)
2. Take out all known missle sites (definitely)
3. Cripple Military Runways (maybe)
4. (unlikely) take out aircraft/shelters/maintenance areas...

 
GR66 said:
WRT a western imposed No-Fly Zone in Libya.  Say we (let's say NATO as the lead international group running the operation) shoot down a couple of Libyan aircraft.  Gadhafi then claims this as "proof" that this isn't any sort of "rebel" uprising but rather a foreign-led invasion of their country ....
I know one demographic that would just "love" this ....
The Government of Canada has announced that it will send HMCS Charlottetown to Libya to join the US aircraft carrier fleet led by the USS enterprise. This is part of a much larger NATO led buildup in the area. The Canadian Peace Alliance is opposed to any military intervention in Libya or in the region as a whole.

If the western governments were genuine in their desire to help the people of Libya – or Egypt or Tunisia for that matter – they would not have supported the dictators and their regimes. That support for the dictators is a chief reason why the situation is so violent for the people rising up. Western military deployment to Libya is a bit like asking the arsonist to put out their own fire. Far from being a shining light in a humanitarian crisis, western intervention is designed to maintain the status quo and will, in fact make matters worse for the people there.

Western intervention only serves to install compliant and corrupt dictatorial regimes. The people of Tunisia, Egypt and Libya have done more to bring peace and democracy to their countries than years of US-led military occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The west needs to learn the lessons from those failed invasions and not compound the crisis in Libya ....
Not saying I agree with this, just saying it would feed into the message track.
 
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