Troops carrying pistols outside the gate
- Thread starter Jarnhamar
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I think heading out with a sidearm is a good idea. Sort of a last ditch weapon and I'm sorry, but the 7 just isn't suited in all scenarios.
The only problem I have is the lack of training for those already carrying them. I'm expected to carry one overseas and can't see myself getting much time on it. As of now we are leaving in Sept and I still haven't even had a famil on it yet. In Texas I was issued one and had to ask how to clear / clean it as I haven't even seen one before.
IF the training and weapons are there, issue them. BUT make sure that the ppl carrying them are trained and comfortable with their use.
DM
The only problem I have is the lack of training for those already carrying them. I'm expected to carry one overseas and can't see myself getting much time on it. As of now we are leaving in Sept and I still haven't even had a famil on it yet. In Texas I was issued one and had to ask how to clear / clean it as I haven't even seen one before.
IF the training and weapons are there, issue them. BUT make sure that the ppl carrying them are trained and comfortable with their use.
DM
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Which is why I don't think troops should be carrying them. Hell if I had my way, the one I'm issued would be locked in my barrack box for the length of the tour as of right now. I just know one of the medics in Texas almost got charged cause he didn't wear his.
DM
DM
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I-6 true enough 
. Still wondering where I can go to do an armourer's course though ;D.
DM, all the pistol knowledge I had I got from out side of the CF. The fact that there are many who can't hit the broad side of the barn with a BHP isn't surprising at all. Especially when members only get 1 famil/qual shoots a year, and that's it. I'd love to get more pistol time, but atm I'd be more comfortable with my C7/C8.
. Still wondering where I can go to do an armourer's course though ;D. DM, all the pistol knowledge I had I got from out side of the CF. The fact that there are many who can't hit the broad side of the barn with a BHP isn't surprising at all. Especially when members only get 1 famil/qual shoots a year, and that's it. I'd love to get more pistol time, but atm I'd be more comfortable with my C7/C8.
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Definitely true MT. Even the annual shoot on the 7 isn't enough. But at least then you have a number of mags to blow off. Supposedly on the 9mm range you get 30 rounds?
DM
DM
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i hate to hear where the pistol knowledge went. when i was with the Patricias we had a good base of knowledge for use of a pistol. there was a lot of practice for those issued after one ND byone person who wasnt qualified... as to taking them away from troops why ? they are used as a back up piece or when the long barrel isnt availible or useable. .the pistol is one of many tools issued to a soldier, its great that you want to lock up a tool but why strip them away from those that can actully use them? .
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axeman said:
I think you misunderstood. I`m all for giving them to ppl that are qualified. I`m just saying that at the moment, if I`m giving one with my current lack of training, I`m locking it up unless given proper training. I don`t want to be that person that has an ND and kills someone.
DM
OldSolduer
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I agree with axeman, but.....the chain of command has the responsibility to ensure that those issued pistols are competent AND trained.
The lack of pistol training in the CF is abysmal....
When I was in Croatia I was tasked to run a 9mm pistol shoot for the CO and Sector Comd and various staff officers. I wanted to give my troops a few mags for practice, but was told...there is a lack of 9mm ammo Sgt, sorry....and the CO and Sector Comd had a pistol shoot for fun.....makes you wonder.
The lack of pistol training in the CF is abysmal....
When I was in Croatia I was tasked to run a 9mm pistol shoot for the CO and Sector Comd and various staff officers. I wanted to give my troops a few mags for practice, but was told...there is a lack of 9mm ammo Sgt, sorry....and the CO and Sector Comd had a pistol shoot for fun.....makes you wonder.
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Axeman my friend I'm guessing the pistoleros either went to the land of tan coloured hats, went on to bigger better things a la I-6 or went to develope their athletic skills with the ski/swim/dance team ;D I don't think I'm that far off!
- A few things about pistol training:
1. ALL CF Reg F Officers shot the Inglis Browning during BOTC. To do this, they had to pass 'Handling Tests' (still colloquially called TsOET) before firing. Therefore, for this population, lack of basic proficiency is a matter of skill fade, nothing more.
2. For ALL others: to 'permanent issue' a weapon to an individual without a proper program for training in their foreseeable future is an act of criminal negligence!
3. Previously, pistol training for ORs (Other Ranks - now NCMs) in most units was pretty much the purview of SA Instrs, SA Coaches and the various unit pistol teams. Was this 'Combat Shooting'? No. But it was basic skills and drills - safety being the first one.
4. Most Officers and ORs who wanted to get good with a pistol joined the unit pistol team or bought a pistol and practised.
5. Before we give every one with two legs a pistol, we figure out why. Is it for convenience or combat? Once we have the answer, we develop the training program.
6. David Marshall "Carbine" Williams, while in prison for manslaughter (a Deputy Sheriff was shot dead raiding Williams' still) developed the short-stroke gas system and later, working for Winchester, used it in the design of the M1 carbine. Why a carbine? Cheaper than a 1911A1 and EASIER AND FASTER to qualify on. Probably safer, too. So.... since the C8 is used more as a shorter "Johnny Seven" than as an actual carbine, why not just give people Mini 14s?
1. ALL CF Reg F Officers shot the Inglis Browning during BOTC. To do this, they had to pass 'Handling Tests' (still colloquially called TsOET) before firing. Therefore, for this population, lack of basic proficiency is a matter of skill fade, nothing more.
2. For ALL others: to 'permanent issue' a weapon to an individual without a proper program for training in their foreseeable future is an act of criminal negligence!
3. Previously, pistol training for ORs (Other Ranks - now NCMs) in most units was pretty much the purview of SA Instrs, SA Coaches and the various unit pistol teams. Was this 'Combat Shooting'? No. But it was basic skills and drills - safety being the first one.
4. Most Officers and ORs who wanted to get good with a pistol joined the unit pistol team or bought a pistol and practised.
5. Before we give every one with two legs a pistol, we figure out why. Is it for convenience or combat? Once we have the answer, we develop the training program.
6. David Marshall "Carbine" Williams, while in prison for manslaughter (a Deputy Sheriff was shot dead raiding Williams' still) developed the short-stroke gas system and later, working for Winchester, used it in the design of the M1 carbine. Why a carbine? Cheaper than a 1911A1 and EASIER AND FASTER to qualify on. Probably safer, too. So.... since the C8 is used more as a shorter "Johnny Seven" than as an actual carbine, why not just give people Mini 14s?
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I've always thought cbt arms should get a pistol and a C8SFW -- and non cbt arms folk should get the C8CQB's
Pistol training -- and with the exception of gunfighter -- small arms skills in the regular army have plummeted
1) CANSOFCOM took a lot of the focused people
2) Other say that is CANSOFCOM's role and they dont need to learn - or are too proud to ask
3) Others beleive the individual does not matter - and they are just there to look pretty while LAV cannons, Arty and CAS kill people.
It is a fricken embarrasment that an Army that used to pride itself its skill at arms is currently in the hurt locker.
Pistol training -- and with the exception of gunfighter -- small arms skills in the regular army have plummeted
1) CANSOFCOM took a lot of the focused people
2) Other say that is CANSOFCOM's role and they dont need to learn - or are too proud to ask
3) Others beleive the individual does not matter - and they are just there to look pretty while LAV cannons, Arty and CAS kill people.
It is a fricken embarrasment that an Army that used to pride itself its skill at arms is currently in the hurt locker.
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All I can say is that I can't wait to get some pistol training in. I loved learning to use the c-7, even enjoyed maintaining it, I find it satisfying.
I plan on joining the local shooting team, no question. (tried here but to my knowledge one doesn't exist in london)
I plan on joining the local shooting team, no question. (tried here but to my knowledge one doesn't exist in london)
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Before I got into pre-deployment mode I tried to run a pistol course at my unit. I incorporated as much police practical combat skill as I could, and also went over weapon retention and hand-to-hand drills if someone grabs your pistol. We also covered body indexing and proper drawing techniques ("take that idiotic flap off of that POS holster and follow this"). It was all well and good up until it was range time. Then the Cult of No kicked in, and it got all shot to hell. Apparently getting pistol ammunition outside of IBTS is like asking to get issued Bangalore torpedoes for a mess dinner. Just crazy talkin'.
I think it is pretty god damned sad that one of the finest military institutions in the world has to resort to "join a gun club on your own time and dime" to get proficient on a weapon that they will be expected to protect theirs and other lives in a war zone. Couple that with how much "filler" training we are going to be doing from now until September, there is no excuse for this.
Pathetic.
(and that isn't directed at whomever made the suggestion, but the reality of the necessity)
I think it is pretty god damned sad that one of the finest military institutions in the world has to resort to "join a gun club on your own time and dime" to get proficient on a weapon that they will be expected to protect theirs and other lives in a war zone. Couple that with how much "filler" training we are going to be doing from now until September, there is no excuse for this.
Pathetic.
(and that isn't directed at whomever made the suggestion, but the reality of the necessity)
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