Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

BinRat, good story.  There are times when even a "short" long arm is not the right one for the job.  This 'pistols or not' decision should be a tactical one made by the folks going into a situation as needed, not some sort of 'blanket' decision.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think the pistol is still being used as a status symbol in a lot of places.

In training in Texas I heard a few indicators of it.
-We don't need to put troops through the pistol range their not going to use them anyways
-Only section commanders and 2ICs will have pistols.

Me I figure a C9 gunner, medic or door kicker are in a position to actually need a pistol before a section commander. Especially more than an NCO or Officer working on base 99% of the time.

Everyone thinks pistols are cool and wants one, sadly in the game of paper rock rank the guys and girls who could make the most use of them don't win.

 

[BinRat55]

Binrat.... given that we are now a fighting army once more, I would venture to say that with all that experience outside the wire, attitudes will change and the situation you experienced probably would not happen today (or maybe next year).  (Dinos do retire - they don't die (though the smell may suggest otherwise )

I would have to agree 100% on that one.  It's good to see that we are learning through experience these days instead of "white papers".  Something I always tell my people - it takes a good supply tech to go by the book, but it takes a better supply tech to know when to not go by the book.  Works for everyone I think...

 

[geo]

An even better supply tech would look at what the book says, identify it as being wrong for all of the following reasons and try his damnest to have it changed..... 8)

I always considered "white paper" to be two ply and dispensed by the roll.... uhh.... isn't that what you and your Sgt were buying at $$$ per pack?

 

[BinRat55]

An even better supply tech would look at what the book says, identify it as being wrong for all of the following reasons and try his damnest to have it changed..... 8)

Geo, you just described ArmyVern to a TEE!!!  Good one.

I always considered "white paper" to be two ply and dispensed by the roll.... uhh.... isn't that what you and your Sgt were buying at $$$ per pack?

LOL!!  Actually it was off white and closer to sandpaper.  Curious...maybe that's why it was so expensive?  I told him I didn't think ACE Hardware carried Charmin...  ;D

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I think the pistol is still being used as a status symbol in a lot of places.
In training in Texas I heard a few indicators of it.

I was entitled to one and didn't bother drawing it.  I won't wear a holster that has practicality just lower than duct taping the weapon to your leg.  I'll pass for now. 

 

[Teeps74]

I was entitled to one and didn't bother drawing it.  I won't wear a holster that has practicality just lower than duct taping the weapon to your leg.  I'll pass for now. 

Historically speaking, in Afghanistan, the Russians rarely if ever used their rifles for executions. They used pistols. Now, if you want to modify behaviour quickly, use a pistol as opposed to a rifle (but do take into account ROEs before doing so).

Having a pistol is also and inidcator to them of rank (ie a commander carries a pistol), another hold over from the Russian invasion. If you are in a position where face-to-face conversation is a possibility, I recommend drawing a pistol, and investing in a decent holster for it (the issue holster is junk through and through, because it was not designed for the Browning High-Power). Expect to spend about $80-120 on a decent to high end one SAFARILAND is fantastic, I got a HSGI from One Shot (in Brighton Ont, did I get the name right?), and I loved that holster.

 

[BinRat55]

...investing in a decent holster for it (the issue holster is junk through and through, because it was not designed for the Browning High-Power). Expect to spend about $80-120 on a decent to high end one SAFARILAND is fantastic, I got a HSGI from One Shot (in Brighton Ont, did I get the name right?), and I loved that holster.

Pardon my ignorance, but speaking strictly from the Supply trade, I wasn't aware we were allowed to buy and wear personal (non-issue) kit when it came to weapons. Not that I disagree - i'll be the first person to tell you if it's the best thing in an operational theater, i'll turn the other way - but some wouldn't.  I would think there is a culpability issue if the kit malfunctions. And yes (for the benefit of some, holsters CAN malfunction and cause AD's).  Is this a unit thing, or CF wide?

 

[Dissident]

Case by case, almost.

We wore non issued holster on my roto, shoulder, waist and drop leg. Next roto, no dice.

If someone would have had an ND due to their non issued holster, I get a feeling we would have been hung to dry.

 

[riggermade]

I think it would be difficult to show an ND was caused by a holster, depending on the holster....I made shoulder rigs in CADPAT that were the same as the issued green ones....now some of the more modern ones with all the bells and whistles might be a different story

 

[OldSolduer]

OK troops:

Here's the skinny on Negligent Discharges......they are caused by negligence on the soldier's part, not the holster, not the weapon itself, but the soldier...
We used to call them Accidental Discharges...but in reality these are caused by negligence.

 

[421 EME]

It is the responsible of a QL5 Weapons Tech L to do all investigations in to ND's with all weapons being used by the army, and I say this to all of you, we try everything to get a weapon to fail the serviceably test to keep the guy from getting charged, but if it passes the test and is serviceable your getting charged.
Holsters don't cause a ND's, people cause ND's( poor training and drills). With the BHP one thing that may cause a ND is using your mag pouch on the TV as a holster. Because when you are putting the BHP into the mag pouch you can inadvertently cause the safety to come off and BANG you got a ND waiting to happen.

 

[garb811]

Case by case, almost.

We wore non issued holster on my roto, shoulder, waist and drop leg. Next roto, no dice.

If someone would have had an ND due to their non issued holster, I get a feeling we would have been hung to dry.

Didn't you convert to Sig prior to deploying?  Any Reservists I ever took, it was the first thing we did to ensure commonality on pistols in the Det.  Even pre-Sig I never wore the issued holster on Ops, the unit did a bulk purchase of a suitable better holster and everyone wore that.

 

[BinRat55]

the unit did a bulk purchase of a suitable better holster and everyone wore that.

Well I KNOW that shouldn't fly... but i've seen much weirder (is that even a word?) things in my years.  I guess for me, for my own piece of mind, if I were carrying a side arm in a non-issued holster, I would have an issued holster somewhere nearby!!

Soyou say the "unit" did a bulk purchase for an item that is restricted in the supply system?  Interesting...

 

[BinRat55]

It is the responsible of a QL5 Weapons Tech L to do all investigations in to ND's with all weapons being used by the army, and I say this to all of you, we try everything to get a weapon to fail the serviceably test to keep the guy from getting charged, but if it passes the test and is serviceable your getting charged.

Sniff...I love you guys!!!  ;D

 

[421 EME]

I hate doing ND investigations but its my job and I am not going to lie to get a guy out of the charge. But I do try everything I can to get the weapon to fail, but 95% of the time its the user that has caused it. Weapons safety is a big thing for me because a good Friend and fellow weapons tech lost the hearing in one of his ears when someone had a ND with a 25mm chaingun in the Stan while he was right under the muzzle. There are 5 safety's on the 25mm chaingun that you have to by pass to get it to fire and they all passed when the investigation was done. I guess the one safety that was not working was his trigger finger.

 

[KevinB]

BHP Safariland 6004

 

[OldSolduer]

Here is a simple old CSM's take on kit...like holsters.....Tac vests.....boots

Kitosauruses....its time to move into the enlightened age.
The day of having "inspection kit" and "field" kit is over....let it be. As long as the kit conforms to cam pattern etc...and I'm sure some of you will add more...and the kit is durable and simple....let it go!!
I'm sure the Army RSM won't like this,,,,but that is my opinion.

 

[geo]

Here is a simple old CSM's take on kit...like holsters.....Tac vests.....boots
I'm sure the Army RSM won't like this,,,,but that is my opinion.

Huh?..... been there, done that and would NOT bust my sapper's chops for non standard but well thought out kit selection.

 

[garb811]

Well I KNOW that shouldn't fly... but i've seen much weirder (is that even a word?) things in my years.  I guess for me, for my own piece of mind, if I were carrying a side arm in a non-issued holster, I would have an issued holster somewhere nearby!!

Soyou say the "unit" did a bulk purchase for an item that is restricted in the supply system?  Interesting...

Fear not my Sup Tech friend.  It was legit and above board with the blessing and funding of the Bde as an IOR due to identified and supported retention issues which are the very same issues everyone is still facing with that holster.  We even made sure it was our Sup Tech who went and made the purchase just to co-opt him as well.