Travel on weekend leave

[PMedMoe]

It's called "job creep".  I'm not talking about personnel who might justifiably be called in due to the unique nature of their job, such as SAR Techs, pilots, etc.  This is about the normal rank and file.

Okay, I'll give you that.  For example, when I was in Kingston, our CO decided that PMed needed to be on call over the Christmas holidays.  We each took the phone for one week and it was only on from 0800-1600 and not at all on stat holidays.  Same with the CBAP (compressed breathing air) phone we used to have in Toronto.  Unless we knew there was a analysis result that was needed right away, we didn't pay much attention to the phone.  Never did turn it off, but the amount of spam/telemarketer calls we got was amazing.

However, for example: if one knows that there might be a recall, or if they might be a replacement for a duty, then it would make sense that they might be required to answer a phone call on evenings or the weekend.

 

[ModlrMike]

I'm going to go against my normal flow and agree with 'Rocksteady'...................I have a higher sense of duty, it's called My Family.  If I'm just Joe Average, and don't have some form of readiness imposed on my unit, then I'm off and enjoying time away from work.  If something large enough to warrant a needed callback happened, I'm pretty damn sure it would make the news, and then I'd expect callbacks.
If you're not going to issue me a Govt. cell phone then don't expect you're always going to get an answer..........if I even have a cell phone.

Leave the 80's in the 80's folks..............sometimes they weren't all that damn good.

I'm not going to disagree with you Bruce, except to say that you probably also don't disappear like a puff of smoke at the end of the day.

Anyhow, this is starting to derail the thread.

I still think that given the information we have, the member did what was expected. There's no need to beat him over the head with it.

 

[Occam]

However, for example: if one knows that there might be a recall, or if they might be a replacement for a duty, then it would make sense that they might be required to answer a phone call on evenings or the weekend.

Agreed.  Normally people in those situations know they're in those situations, and don't have an excuse for not answering the phone.

My earlier comments in the thread were specifically concerning the majority of pers who aren't subject to recall for whatever reason, though.  I did an informal look around for standing orders, and in the Navy, Ship's Standing Orders, CFNES and CFNOS SO do not have a requirement for pers to submit a CF100 for weekend leave out of area.  Only the Ready Duty Ship is subject to specific recall measures.  I wanted to find some standing orders belonging to Army units, but couldn't find any - and I'm pretty adept at finding things on the DWAN.  Are they kept under lock and key?   

You can't expect your troops to be familiar with all the orders they're subject to if they can't easily find them.

I still think that given the information we have, the member did what was expected. There's no need to beat him over the head with it.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

[George Wallace]

QR&O 16.01 deals with withholding and recall from leave, though.  When you go home at the end of the day at 1600 until you report for work at 0800 the next day (or whatever your CO determines your regular hours of work are), you're not on leave.  You're also not on leave when you pack it in on Friday afternoon at 1600 until you report for work at 0800 on Monday (note there is no type of leave designated as "Weekend" when not used in conjunction with another type of leave reckoned in days, according to the leave manual).

Unless you're in one of those positions where you're explicitly told that you're on X hours notice for recall and must either be reachable by phone, or check in with your unit periodically to ensure no recall exists (the MARLANTORD dealing with Ready Duty Ship comes to mind), under what obligation is a member to answer the phone during silent hours during the week or over a weekend?

I will just stick to what you said here.  Commons Sense is not so common.  The OP knew they were outside of their Unit area.  They asked for and got one days Leave to sort out their predicament; which should have meant that they were given 24 extra hours to get home and be able to return to work -- NOT take more time off away from the job. 

 

[PMedMoe]

I will just stick to what you said here.  Commons Sense is not so common.  The OP knew they were outside of their Unit area.  They asked for and got one days Leave to sort out their predicament; which should have meant that they were given 24 extra hours to get home and be able to return to work -- NOT take more time off away from the job.

The member attempted to rectify their problem and were unable to in the one day.  They contacted their CoC.  If there was no necessity for them to be at work and if they had the annual leave, then the Sgt was just being a complete douche, IMO.  I know for me, if it were a member I'd never had a problem with, the response is a no-brainer.  If it were someone I had reason to doubt, that would be a different story.

And out of the unit area, does not equal out of the geographic area.

What if I went on leave to a place that only had one flight a day and on my last day there, a weather system moved into place that prevented planes from landing and/or taking off?  What am I supposed to do then?  Walk home?  Swim home?  And do I get written up on my PDR for not being able to control the weather?

I'm sure glad some of you aren't my boss..... :

 

[Loachman]

The member attempted to rectify their problem and were unable to in the one day.  They contacted their CoC.  If there was no necessity for them to be at work and if they had the annual leave, then the Sgt was just being a complete douche, IMO.

I concur.

Most people in the CF are adults. There is no reason or excuse to treat them otherwise.

Supervisors who act as dickheads benefit neither themselves nor their subordinates (other than as examples of how not to behave in such positions) - or the CF at large.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Off topic sorry.

Regarding leave passes do I need a leave pass to travel "outside of area"?
Can units arbitrarily decide that members need a leave pass to travel further than X kms on weekend leave or something to that effect?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Off topic sorry.

Regarding leave passes do I need a leave pass to travel "outside of area"?
Can units arbitrarily decide that members need a leave pass to travel further than X kms on weekend leave or something to that effect?

There's a few different opinions out there on if a CO can make a leave policy more restrictive than the CAF one.  I say "they can as long as people are willing to follow it...".  I don't know if it would stand up to review or not.  I've seen more restrictive 'stuff' end up in our Sqn orders, only to be redacted in full and replaced with the part below, with a line stating 'people are encouraged to let their CofC know if they are leaving their residence on weekends' or something to that effect. 

What is the official CAF policy?

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
•when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
•when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
•when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis. 

Approval Authority

The Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual is issued under the authority of the Chief Military Personnel (CMP).

 

[Gunner98]

The more important policy for a weekend leave outside the local area is QR&O 16.01 http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page:

16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE
(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:

because of imperative military requirements; and
when the member's commanding officer personally directs the member's return to duty.

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled.

It is for this reason that Bases normally state a leave policy that is associated with a map showing boundaries. For coverage for injuries and subsequent VAC benefits you want to be officially be on leave, if while you are returning to unit/Base when recalled by the CO and you get into a car accident it is an injury that occurred while on duty.  Without the leave pass showing your intended location/destination then it is expected that you are at home (the place from which you are recalled) and not camping in the woods off the beaten path (the place you forgot to get a leave pass to serve as evidence that this was your intent).

In addition to the CF 100 having information on how to acquire health services while on leave it also helps to document your status, if you are on official leave and you require hospitalization then the leave shall terminate on the day prior to the date of admission (for accounting purposes).

 

[SupersonicMax]

I call BS.  Because you don't have a leave pass doesn't mean you are not on leave.  This is clearly spelled out in the Leave Manual.  The only thing weekend leave passes do is increase the administrative burden on the member, the CoC and the admin staff.  Give your cell number to your CoC.  If something urgent happens, you'll know through a text or phone call.

 

[Gunner98]

I call BS.  Because you don't have a leave pass doesn't mean you are not on leave.  This is clearly spelled out in the Leave Manual.  The only thing weekend leave passes do is increase the administrative burden on the member, the CoC and the admin staff.  Give your cell number to your CoC.  If something urgent happens, you'll know through a text or phone call.

Not sure what you are getting at: with Monitor Mass there is no admin burden. :not-again:  Stating your location clearly on a leave pass will pay dividends when things go wrong.  If the chain of command does not know where you are then it is hard for them to inform the CO who is readily available to call or text when something requires an urgent response.  The old weekend sign out books do not serve as evidence.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Not sure what you are getting at: with Monitor Mass there is no admin burden. :not-again:

You still need to create a leave pass (10 minutes), get it signed by your supervisor (5 minutes) and get the OR to enter the leave pass in HMRS (5 minutes). That's 20 minutes per person.  Times a unit of 250 people, that's 5000 minutes or 83 hrs of work to do something that is redundant because the CF leave manual already covers you.  Everybody probably travels out of area 5-6 times a year on a weekend, thats 500 man hours.  Average your unit's salary at $50 per hours (including benefits), that's $25,000 per year just to have a process that is entirely redundant with no added value.  Want to know where your peeps are?  Ask them to send you an email if they plan on going out of area. That'll take 1 minute.  Personally, given the unlikelihood of an immediate recall (unless you are on 48 hrs NTM or less), I don't bother. If something happens that requires me to reach them immediately, I'll try to reach them the best I can.  Otherwise, they'll show up Monday.  I try to stay out of people's personnal lives as much as possible. 

 

[MARS]

If something happens that requires me to reach them immediately, I'll try to reach them the best I can.  Otherwise, they'll show up Monday.  I try to stay out of people's personnal lives as much as possible.

Fair enough.  I am working at a U.S. Command, and their accountability requirements are far more stringent than ours, but I had a subordinate at the scene of the Las Vegas shooting last year.  Knowing that dude was there meant I reached out to him, before anyone else in my recall list - calling back to his CoC was not at all on his list of calls he made in the immediate aftermath - and the fact that he was safe and uninjured was able to be transmitted up the chain quickly.  The Commander was looking for 100% accountability in the aftermath, and quickly.  Waiting for them to 'show up Monday' wasn't an option available to me.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I care about my people however, it would not change anything to the situation at hand whether I knew something happened immediately after it happened or 1-2 days later. If I know an individual is around an emergency scene (amd generally, I am interested enough in their well-being to ask them what their plans are for weekends, just not in a formal way), I'll give the person a shout on his cell.

In your example, the person very well could have been unreachable for quite some time, even if he/she had been uninjured.  And then what?  Call every (likely overworked) morgue and hospital to find out if buddy is ok?  Easy answer?  Mass text your subbordinates for an ackowledgement (explaining why you are disturbing their weekends...). Call/investigate those that don't answer.

In any case, in our system, a leave pass is not the answer to track your people's whereabouts.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Pretty interesting info.

I've always questioned needing a leave pass to leave the local area. When I'd enquire what the local area was an NCOs would more times than not seem to make something up off the top of their head.

"you won't be covered (medically) if you get into an accident and don't have a leave pass"

 

[mariomike]

"you won't be covered (medically) if you get into an accident and don't have a leave pass"

For reference to the discussion,

Not Covered On "Off Duty" Travel?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/41292.0
2 pages

Not being covered if no leave pass 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/126325.0

Leave Pass 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/35112.0

CF 100
https://army.ca/forums/threads/93209.0
2 pages

Leave Policy – Weekends
https://army.ca/forums/threads/28634.150
11 pages.

etc...

 

[Gunner98]

You still need to create a leave pass (10 minutes), get it signed by your supervisor (5 minutes) and get the OR to enter the leave pass in HMRS (5 minutes). That's 20 minutes per person.  Times a unit of 250 people, that's 5000 minutes or 83 hrs of work to do something that is redundant because the CF leave manual already covers you.  Everybody probably travels out of area 5-6 times a year on a weekend, thats 500 man hours.  Average your unit's salary at $50 per hours (including benefits), that's $25,000 per year just to have a process that is entirely redundant with no added value.  Want to know where your peeps are?  Ask them to send you an email if they plan on going out of area. That'll take 1 minute.  Personally, given the unlikelihood of an immediate recall (unless you are on 48 hrs NTM or less), I don't bother. If something happens that requires me to reach them immediately, I'll try to reach them the best I can.  Otherwise, they'll show up Monday.  I try to stay out of people's personnal lives as much as possible.

Max

I have always enjoyed how you as a pilot use the rationale - it is takes my time and it is unlikely that anything will happen so why bother.  Does that mean you don't waste time doing pre-flight checks and walkarounds of your aircraft and tolerate your mechanics not doing preventive maintenance because the plane flew well the last time so let's roll the dice!

In this argument you submit that it costs CAF money to follow an admin procedure, so you inflate the numbers so high that it makes your side of the argument weak - 10 minutes to create a leave pass, 5 minutes to sign a piece of paper.  So let's be real and say 5, 1 and 1, so now it is a reasonable $6,600 to track a group of 250 people for one year.  It is all about risk management and taking care of people.  I think that $6,600 of Leave Pass work is a like a good insurance policy that could pay dividends for one soldier who may need that Leave Pass that was saved in HRMS for a VAC claim in the future.  It may be one day, week or many years after you and your subordinate have deleted that text message that acknowledged their weekend plan.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I trust the technicians they did a proper Before Flight check and do a quick overall check - not nearly as thourough as they just did.

I think it takes about 5 minutes just for monitor mass to start up.  Depending on how quick someone is with MM, another 5 minutes to create the leave pass, save it, open Acrobat, insert PKI, put password, e-sign it, send an email is not unreasonable.  10 minutes is not a stretch.

After I e-sign it (open adobe acrobat, put my PKI in, enter my password, sign the document, save it), I have to send it to the OR.  That is probably 4-5 minutes.

For the OR to enter in HMRS, stamp the leave pass and return to member, I'll give you 3 minutes (I have no idea how HMRS actually works).

The thing is that it isn't an insurance policy.  If you want to track your folk's whereabouts, use a method that doesn't take so much time.  This is admin that is not required by any high-level policy or orders: simply by local commanders.  This is something we can easily control and reduce people's time wasted on things that are not necessary.

 

[dimsum]

Max

I have always enjoyed how you as a pilot use the rationale - it is takes my time and it is unlikely that anything will happen so why bother.  Does that mean you don't waste time doing pre-flight checks and walkarounds of your aircraft and tolerate your mechanics not doing preventive maintenance because the plane flew well the last time so let's roll the dice!

In this argument you submit that it costs CAF money to follow an admin procedure, so you inflate the numbers so high that it makes your side of the argument weak - 10 minutes to create a leave pass, 5 minutes to sign a piece of paper.  So let's be real and say 5, 1 and 1, so now it is a reasonable $6,600 to track a group of 250 people for one year.  It is all about risk management and taking care of people.  I think that $6,600 of Leave Pass work is a like a good insurance policy that could pay dividends for one soldier who may need that Leave Pass that was saved in HRMS for a VAC claim in the future.  It may be one day, week or many years after you and your subordinate have deleted that text message that acknowledged their weekend plan.

I'm not sure that's a good analogy.  There's a chance that the aircraft could get a snag between the last time the plane landed and the upcoming flight.  However, if something happens while that person is on leave on a weekend out of area (but within the CF leave manual's arcs), then they're covered, no?  There really isn't a way where the policy would randomly change between the person going on leave and him/her returning (that's not a great analogy either but it's the closest I can think of a policy getting a "snag".)  If so, then isn't it a duplication of effort?

Definitely tell people where you're going and a way to reach you, but if there isn't a reason to be recalled in short notice (duty, ready posture, etc) *and* if all issues are already covered, then why are we doing this to ourselves?

 

[Gunner98]

Dimsum,

My analogy was for Max's normal argumentative style, which I think he acknowledged and not for the discussion ongoing in this thread.  Duplication of effort and redundancy are two separate things.  Having both a supervisor sign recommending and a superior sign approving a leave pass is redundant as the leave pass should not reach the superior unless the supervisor recommends it.  Duplication of effort is both the mechanic and the pilot doing some pre-flight checks.

As I stated we are doing this to ourselves because QR&Os tell us to and following orders may require duplication of effort; but, QR&O seldom result in redundant activity (by definition - superfluous; exceeding what is necessary.)

Max,

Let's not exaggerate time do you have to do that whole start procedure for every weekend leave pass or can you give everyone a NLT time and approve all of the leave passes at once (say noon Friday).  I am pretty sure you can copy and paste in MM so you don't need to waste time typing.  Not everyone is going to require a weekend leave pass because they are not going to travel beyond the Base recall limits.

The reality in many units is that soldiers prepare handwritten weekend leave passes and sign them without dates entered so that should one be required for admin purposes the appropriate supervisor will sign it and use the text messages as references.