Training Review Board Recommendations

[SeaKingTacco]

Just to clarify;  you've seen the draft recommendation of the TRB, but the actual decision hasn't been made by the Cmdt yet, and you've submitted a grievance, without the benefit of an Assisting Member, to your CO with the contention being that the TRB was contrary to a MEL of low stress?

Curiouschap- read this carefully.  IMHO, your CO does not have to accept your grievance- until he actually renders a decision, based on what the TRB has recommended (I think it has been pointed out to Curiouschap on several occasions that the decisions rests with the CO, not the TRB).

You are free to hire a lawyer to help you (it is your money, after all), but TRBs and Grievances are non-judicial processes.  You are wasting your money.

My advice would be to actually wait until your CO renders a decision before acting. But, since you appear not to be big on following advice, I am probably wasting bandwidth even typing this....

 

[curiouschap]

The first grievance I submitted was helped unofficially by a person I know. I have submitted a NOI that I am grieving the decision to hold TRB was against MEL. I am submitting a grievance on Monday. Now I havent heard back from the CO as in who my AO will be. But the reason I am looking for the lawyer is to actually do the writeup to challenge whatever decision comes from the Cmdt. I know a recommendation is not a decision. So I am in fact following the advice experienced and learned members here are giving. If I understand correctly grievance is not a juidicial process but it is still based on how well the write up is. Unfortunately not everyone is good at writing and sometimes I personally feel face to face meetings are better to express. But that does not happen during the grievance process and hence that idea of lawyer with a lot of military background so that hecan very well point out deficiencies and answer them. Of course he will be using my line of thought IAW policies but it just how the write up goes. I know I am speculating a lot and all talks that life may not be fair etc. but here I am totally wrong from what others have advised me to read the DAODs about remedial measures and I have my thoughts together. Its just the help of this lawyer who will write things in more direct manner than me who have no legal background.As you know English is not my first language. I realize that lawyer is going to cost me 1500 bucks and I am that mature to understand that you invest in things that you have grounds to justify. Honestly if the TRB and if subsequest release would have been asked after everything that CF did failed, I would not have even fought it and left quietly. But its not the case here. Surprisingly the doctor's evaluation still has to come and I havent even seen the doctor after been on TCAT. Of course I am not putting obvious details but people who I have met and talked about this are surprised that this has happened with no grounds and hence there is something missing and I am trying to find that missing link.

 

[Journeyman]

.....to grieve that the TRB should not have been held as it was in violation of my MEL of low stress.

I would rule against you. 

A limitation of low stress means only that you cannot be tasked here:

It does not mean that the chain of command must stop the world and ensure that nothing stressful occurs in your life.

If that were the case, the Adjt (or Navy equivalent) would be obligated to take the computer and TV from your place of residence because there are a lot of nasty things happening out there -- economic catastrophe, global warming, Honey Boo Boo....


Of course, I'm well aware that nothing said here has any meaning anyway....

I am submitting a grievance on Monday.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The first grievance I submitted was helped unofficially by a person I know. I have submitted a NOI that I am grieving the decision to hold TRB was against MEL. I am submitting a grievance on Monday. Now I havent heard back from the CO as in who my AO will be. But the reason I am looking for the lawyer is to actually do the writeup to challenge whatever decision comes from the Cmdt. I know a recommendation is not a decision. So I am in fact following the advice experienced and learned members here are giving. If I understand correctly grievance is not a juidicial process but it is still based on how well the write up is. Unfortunately not everyone is good at writing and sometimes I personally feel face to face meetings are better to express. But that does not happen during the grievance process and hence that idea of lawyer with a lot of military background so that hecan very well point out deficiencies and answer them. Of course he will be using my line of thought IAW policies but it just how the write up goes. I know I am speculating a lot and all talks that life may not be fair etc. but here I am totally wrong from what others have advised me to read the DAODs about remedial measures and I have my thoughts together. Its just the help of this lawyer who will write things in more direct manner than me who have no legal background.As you know English is not my first language. I realize that lawyer is going to cost me 1500 bucks and I am that mature to understand that you invest in things that you have grounds to justify. Honestly if the TRB and if subsequest release would have been asked after everything that CF did failed, I would not have even fought it and left quietly. But its not the case here. Surprisingly the doctor's evaluation still has to come and I havent even seen the doctor after been on TCAT. Of course I am not putting obvious details but people who I have met and talked about this are surprised that this has happened with no grounds and hence there is something missing and I am trying to find that missing link.

I could write some things to try to clarify or advise you, but I am very doubtful at this point you are open to any input. 

I will say this though;  I think your current plan/course of action has the potential to make things worse. 

Good luck.  Perhaps you can come back and let us know how this all goes.

 

[curiouschap]

So eventually got the decision on the TRB, the training authority concurs with the TRB recommendation of cease training. There are no further recommendations except that I should coordinate with the career manager and CoC for further steps. Now if I understand correctly based on the decision, the CoC can seek an appointment with the BPSO for a compulsory occupation transfer and/or seek an admin review. They can also recommend a release. My guess is if the CoC recommends release it will most likely be under item 5(d) or 5(f). I have already indicated that to my CoC that if that is the route they intend taking then will they support a voluntary release instead and they have indicated that they will support. Based on my intention to VR the CoC asked me to fill the BPSO forms and hand them in. When I went with the forms to the doctor to get them signed, the doctor mentioned that he has asked for a PCAT on sea sickness. According to the doctor, once I get a sea sickness PCAT chit, that will automatically trigger an AR and a compulsory occupation transfer. Being sea sick will open more trade options with the BPSO and even if there is a release it wont be in the 5 items, it will be more likely medical release.

Can some one shed some more light on this please? Again confirm that the PCAT is nothing else but sea sickness

 

[SeaKingTacco]

How could we confirm a privileged conversation that took place between you and your medical provide?

Why don't you ask your doctor if there is anything else besides chronic seasickness in your PCAT?

 

[curiouschap]

To clarify my previous post, I am not asking anything about the medical except mentioning that there is nothing on the PCAT other than chronic sea sickness. I am asking how the process will continue given the fact that I intend to release voluntarily to seek honourable discharge as compared to 5 items release that my CoC might have in their mind and the fact that chronic sea sickness TCAT is now reveiwed for PCAT chronic sea sickness. After the medical category changes for chronic sea sickness, can the CoC still recommend a 5 item release?

 

[McG]

By the rules, you are not allowed to avoid an item 5 release AR by voluntarily releasing.

 

[curiouschap]

Sorry to say this but the CoC is not indicating what will their next step or recommendation with the TRB decision which is left open end with no further recommendation except that I should coordinate with the CoC for my next step and the supervisor not revealing any information of what the next step will be. The TCAT for chronic sea sickness was issued before the TRB and mentioned that I needed further testings. Then the TRB happened and the decision arrived for cease training. I was fearful that the CoC is not supportive of me transferring trades and most likely seeking 5 item release. Hence I asked them if I can VR instead and they are OK with that. Upon knowing the VR intention, CoC asked me to seek BPSO appointment as a part of VR process but the doctor will not sign the form as he has asked chronic sea sickness TCAT to be changed to chronic sea sickness PCAT. There is noone within direct CoC aware of how things work or they are not interested in me any more. Whatever be the cause, I am seeking some authentic information. I have read through the references but if someone can shed more light that will help? Also should I still be fearful about unfavourable discharge item since I now have medical category and even if the release happens it will be a medical vice 5 item release?

 

[curiouschap]

The supervisor has not initiated any paper work for AR. Again the TRB decision has mentioned no further recommendations except cease training and coordinate with the CM and CoC. Hence if I request a VR, the CoC has agreed to proceed as VR vice any further AR action. Although not directly but indirectly they gave me a chance to seek BPSO showing it as a part of the VR process. But the BPSO needs a clean medical to review my file. SO I went to the doctor asking what he thinks about the chronic sea sickness after the tests were done, he told me that my medical category has been applied for PCAT chronic sea sickness. Now if I VR its my choice and supported by CoC, in the process if I find any other trade to transfer to through the VR process the CoC has no issues and the VR will stop as such. But the concern is that if I choose not to VR and the CoC seeks AR, of course my medical category as chronic sea sick will be on file, still can the AR recommend item 5 release?What happens then, will the AR based on TRB and MEL recommend a transfer?Can they ask for a release medically or any other release?

 

[McG]

There are many steps and decisions that must come after a doctor has decided they want to recommend a PCAT before the decision on a medical release is considered … and a medical release might not be the conclusion that is reached.

You are asking people to be clairvoyant on your behalf.  You won't get good answers from this.

 

[curiouschap]

I am not asking people to see through things. All I am wanting to know, is there a place I can seek clarifications and get my questions answered other than the CoC.

Ok I want to stay in the CF but not in the current trade or RCN due to sea sickness and all issues originating from being sick all the time. When a TCAT was issues, they held a TRB and cease training. I decided to VR to avoid 5 item release, supported my CoC, now TCAT chnaged to PCAT and that too chronic sea sickness. If I dont want to VR and AR happens, will they overlook the medical or will they still ask for medical release?

I am not asking people to bet on the process, all I am asking is if someone is aware of this kind of situation and knows the outcome and can shed some light or recommend some place like say JPSU etc to seek answers.

 

[McG]

Your CoC is the place to get answers.
Medical AR and Performance AR can be done in parallel.  Your CoC should ensure that each desk officer responsible for one file is aware of the other on goin AR related to you.

 

[medicineman]

My  :2c: for what it is worth is this - you're not going to get a medical release based on chronic sea sickness if you're medically employable in another MOSID outside the Navy that won't require you going to sea - it's something you're predisposed to that can't be properly screened for on enrollment (unless you already knew and lied on the questionnaire when it asked you if you were prone to motion sickness - another AR in the making if so). 

The people you need to ask are you MO and your AO, not us - frankly, reading this is like watching what looks like an episode of Canadian Sportsfishing where someone is bass fishing and only getting minnows - you're looking for what you want to hear and maybe what you can turn around and say "well these guys on line said this...".  You NEED to engage your Assisting Officer whoever that may be and the medical chain however they're involved for your administrative and medical issues.

MM

 

[curiouschap]

I used the search function to find the process that involves when a member is chronic sea sick. Following my previous thread on TRB and its decision, of course it's decided that I cannot train when I am chronic sea sick the moment ship starts sailing and hence I should cease training. Now there is no information what happens to a member when he/she is chronically sea sick and in process of getting a PCAT "Unable to withstand ship's motion (Unfit sea, fit alongside)" (This is my TCAT MEL with O factor O3)?

Will someone please share their knowledge, experience, expertise on this topic? Only reference I found was on the BPSO website indicating what happens after a member gets sick chit for sea sickness. Then there is little information power point on AR based on MEL. I am very curious to know what is the exact process?Does this mean that the member gets medically released or the member is retained in land based trades?

 

[medicineman]

The PCat goes forth, is dealt with at the DMedPol side of things and then from Careers side - if there aren't any other issues that might preclude you from being retained (discipline or admin issues for instance), you'd likely be offered a medical remuster to a trade that you're medically capable of doing and had the education and CFAT score to qualify you for.

It's a process and it takes time.

Hope that helps.

Edited to add - Forgot to reinforce something I already said: ENGAGE YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND - THAT'S PART OF THEIR JOB (AND YES I'M RAISING MY VOICE AT YOU).  You keep coming here looking for stuff that you should be asking your Div PO, AO and your Medical Officer about - the people that are paid to do that or at least point you in the right direction.

MM

 

[The Bread Guy]

I used the search function to find the process that involves when a member is chronic sea sick. Following my previous thread on TRB and its decision, of course it's decided that I cannot train when I am chronic sea sick the moment ship starts sailing and hence I should cease training. Now there is no information what happens to a member when he/she is chronically sea sick and in process of getting a PCAT "Unable to withstand ship's motion (Unfit sea, fit alongside)" (This is my TCAT MEL with O factor O3)? ....

Asking the same question in another thread in hopes of getting different answers than you're getting here doesn't work - back you come here, there.

 

[curiouschap]

The Directing Staff:

First, I started a new thread with an understanding that the topics are different. I am not seeking information on TRB but on sea sickness. Second, the very intent of this forum is to exchange useful information and not to play devil's advocate. Most of the replies I got and I read on other threads are nothing but an attempt made to show people their place. I think this attitude by most members does not serve the purpose. People post of this forum to seek information outside their normal CoC so that they can cover themselves or be better prepared. Third, I am so surprised that most people always judge others with a negative connotations. I guess that's a normal trend. I had no intention whatsoever to seek different answers and in fact never got a proper answer in first place. So if you had to move the post and close the other thread, it could have been in a simple language rather than the rant I guess.

 

[mariomike]

I am not seeking information on TRB but on sea sickness.

Hope this helps.

Chronic Sea Sickness Test 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101629.0.html

Chronic Sea Sick?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/100983.0

Advice on Remuster 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/99673.0/nowap.html

"...i'm always getting hit with sea sickness,..."

 

[curiouschap]

Thank you mariomike for those links. I used "sea sickness" in the search function and could not find anything. Anyways yes I know that BPSO looks at your file for a land based occupation never going to sea. I had a talk with the doctor regarding the sea sickness testing and he indicated that although there are some testing available, they are very costly and the number of people who get chronically sea sickness are not many. Hence the CF does not send people to sea sickness testing. They use clinical diagnostics instead. Although not sure if there is a cheaper way to test sea sickness, someone in medical trade can throw some light on it. Not sure if this is true of not?When we have medical test for every other ailment, then there should be some testing for sea sickness as well. Am I missing something here?Please advice.

My understanding of the process so far is that once the D Med Pol approves the PCAT for sea sickness, whether trained or untrained the CF makes every effort to transfer the member. I also understand that one may not always get their choice in this type of transfer but if one has a strong passion of CF then there should not be an issue.

By the way, very curious now, why cant the CF test people in a cheaper way of course, regarding sea sickness when a person walks in the RC with an aim to join the Navy?