Those of us returning from summer courses...

[GhostRecce]

The army has to work on making people actually earn the course though

This is true

 

[Pikache]

I believe that skill unpracticed becomes skill rusty and skill lost.

Yeah, great for other trades guys to know how to use a C6 or a Carl G and do section attacks, but how often do they practice these skills after their course?

So if they get called up to use a Carl G or a C6, they most likely have forgotten it. So they‘d end up learning it all over again.

*shrug*

 

[Michael Dorosh]

RHF - do you not do Warrior training every year? Out here we‘re required to do the drills on all the weapons (though I think they‘ve pushed it back from every year, to every second year). This includes Carl G, SRAAW, the C6, C7, C9, grenade, first aid, mine awareness, etc.

 

[Jeff Boomhouwer]

Out here in 32 Brigade we are required to cmplete warrior training every year, however due to budget constraints you very rarely get any practical time (should read fire ).So you go through the motions but nothing sticks. Inserts and training grenades don‘t count. carry on! :rocket:

 

[Pikache]

I‘m not talking about infantry, I‘m talking about Log, medics, etc.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

So am I.

 

[Pikache]

I leave the question open to any log, medics, sigs, etc.

Do you guys do refresher training on Carl G, C6, etc?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

This log most certainly does, everyone in my regiment is required to. I thought it was the same throughout the army. Why do you have reason to believe that there are those who aren‘t doing it?

 

[Pikache]

Because each trade concentrates on their own skills to practice and refresh?

I believe you‘re with an infantry regiment, Michael. So, you‘d do stuff that the unit you‘re with does.

But I may be wrong. Maybe every unit regardless of trade does practice Carl G drills or section attacks some time in their training year.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Are you familiar with the Warrior training at all? It sounds like you‘re not. It doesn‘t involve section attacks; just what I outlined above - weapons drills, mine awareness, first aid, NBC, radio procedure - though it does seem to change a little bit each year. I know I‘ve seen the Med Company doing their warrior stuff. I thought all the reserve units cross Canada (regardless of role) were required to be doing the same thing?

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Warrior" (ELOC/MLOC 1) doesn‘t teach or test section attacks.

Is leading a successful section attack or a patrol a requirement to pass PLQ, or is the section attack / patrol simply the vehicle within which leadership is assessed?

 

[combat_medic]

The PLQ requirement for all land forces is to lead a Section Attack, a Reconaissance Patrol, and either an occupation of the defence, or routine in the defence. None of which, to my knowledge is taught in MLOC (or ELOC, or QLOC or whatever it‘s being called now).

As for warrior training, I count myself incredibly fortunate to be with an infantry unit otherwise I would have been up $hit creek without a paddle on the PLQ. Most people I spoke to that were in non combat arms units were "supposed" to do a full warrior program every year, but never did. For one person I spoke to (no names, no pack drill), their unit‘s MLOC consisted of TOETs on the C7 followed by a shoot of the C7 on the SAT range. Next was basic familiarization with the C9 and C6, no shooting, no dry firing, no strip and assemble, just unload.... that‘s IT. A little bit of a refresher on basic voice procedure, a bit of first aid review, and a field ex. THAT IS ALL!!!

Granted, this was a WOG unit, but I think those kind of discrepancies in training are inexcusable. Soldier first, right? Now imagine this person having to lead a section attack, having not even a basic knowledge of section battle drills, fire and movement, or having ever participated in a section attack, let alone led one. This person will be competing against infantrymen with hundreds of times the experience. And, for the vast majority, the PLQ is an infantry skills course. THERE is my biggest problem with the PLQ, in a nutshell.

 

[RCA]

"I‘ve heard some pretty nasty things about the new PLQ as well (mainly due to Arty ncos on an infantry course...." Give me a break

For one, who do you think is responsible for the defense of the gun position, it sure in the h*** isn‘t the infantry.We are responible for it ourselves. This is includes recce/fighting patrols to ensure the area is clear. As well the Arty must know infantry, armour and combined arms tactics to be able to support all (during WWII the Army Commander, One out of two Corp commanders and quite a few (out of 5) Divisional Commanders were Arty probably because of that reason), and secondly the PLQ is not an infantry crse, it is a Primary Leadership Qualification. The infantry section is a veh to teach and reinforce leadership.

Units are only suppose to send merited sodiers on Mods 5 & 6. To ensure success units must ensure those that they send know their section tactics. MLOC should take care of knowing the fundermantals. (and yes my unit dutily does "warrior" training every year.)

 

[Eowyn]

I agree with you RCA. The Svc Bn is responsible for it‘s own defense, especially if deployed as a FSG. We do recce patrols, not fighting.

RHF - I have notice very little differenc in the MLOC trg between the Svc Bn I‘m now serving with and the Calgary Highlanders, with whom I used to serve. The major difference is that the Calgary Highlanders at least had a resonable chance at getting the ammunition allocated to them for the C6 & C9 and grenades.

 

[Gryphon]

leave the question open to any log, medics, sigs, etc.

Do you guys do refresher training on Carl G, C6, etc?

I‘m a sig, and i touched the C9, C6, Karl G and the grenades only on basic... otherwise we don‘t use ‘em all that much.. mind you we‘ve been doing CIMIC lately..

the only time we crack out the C9s are during the Winter Warfare

 

[gate_guard]

RCA,
With all due respect, because you appear to be someone with more than a few years in, I wasn‘t insinuating that ALL Arty folk know nothing about infantry tactics. This is the idea you appear to have gotten. I passed along the opinions of two candidates from a recent PLQ. I‘m sure there are many Arty NCOs who are more than capable of teaching a PLQ course, but apparently none of them were instructing on this particular course. What I think you should realize is that most infantry soldiers have a certain expectation with regards to the conduct of a course, PLQ or otherwise, and apparently on this particular PLQ, this wasn‘t met. I have no comment as to what other arms expect when attending courses because I haven‘t served in any other trade. Basically, my point is that this course was full of hard charging infantry types who had a certain expectation which wasn‘t met. The two individuals I spoke with attributed it to the NCOs who happened to be Arty. And if the infantry portion of the PLQ is just to reinforce leadership skills, why do they have infantry specific PLQ courses?

On a semi-related matter, in my opinion, it takes infantry NCOs to teach infantry troops. Yes, I know that the Arty does it‘s own area defense and must be familiar with tactics, infantry and otherwise. But I don‘t think this is comparable to the infantry whose job it is 24/7 to "close with and destroy the enemy." Some may disagree, but in my opinion the infantry are specialists at their trade, just like any other. It seems to me that you are insinuating that anybody can do the infantry‘s job.

 

[RCA]

That was not my intention. I respect the **** out of the infantry because of what they do. However, everyone above MCpl/Mbdr shold be familiar wit basic infantry tactics, and should be able to teach. It is as basic as digging trenchs, passing simple messeges on the radio, sentry duties etc.

your post seems to imply that only infantry types can teach that,and on leadership crses. Some might take that as arrogance.

 

[hhour48]

On PLQ you can fail your patrol or section attack but pass the leadership assessment and still pass the crse. This was not the case with the DP2B Inf crse, not to mention the standard being quite higher.

The PLQ system will most likely be changed next year again to an all-arms PLQ and combat-arms PLQ. The all-arms crse will have no field portion to it, except for small party taskings.

 

[Doug VT]

The more things change, the more things stay the same.....

 

[E13E]

You think Dundurn is a dusty hole, try Sufield AB, It is the largest training area in the Commonwealth and you can count the number of trees in the training area by the number of green dots on the map. :crybaby: