The War in Ukraine
- Thread starter Bruce Monkhouse
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Skysix
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Heinlein had a point. National service before you can be come a (voting) citizen which is needed before you can be in an elected position. So maybe before you can be a congressman, representative, VP or President, either you have to have served or you must have a close (child/grandchild/spouse) CURRENTLY serving throughout your term of office.
How Mike Johnson Got to ‘Yes’ on Aid to Ukraine
Intelligence, politics and personal considerations converted the Republican speaker, who had largely opposed aid to Ukraine as a rank-and-file member, into the key figure pushing it through Congress.www.nytimes.com
Just think, if Canada had this, how many Prime Ministers would we have been able to avoid?
You realize that book was a satire of fascism, right? I mean, I love the book, but it’s a cautionary tale; not one to be emulated.
Skysix
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Yes on the whole it is cautionary, like Animal Farm and 1984, but that doesn't mean there is nothing that can be taken from them. Even Terry Gilliams "Brazil" has things we should take note of.
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Its laughable that we've not tooled up and started rolling off LAV's in London for Ukraine. Have the line start working OT and weekends for an increased production run.
TangoTwoBravo
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The 1997 movie was certainly a satire of fascism. The book, though, was not. Indeed, the glorification of fascism is among the charges levelled at the book by critics. I think that is a stretch, but there it is. Charges of militarism, though, have to be accepted. There was not a lot of irony present in the book.
But anyway!
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He was an interesting person, but definitely had a service mindedness. Released from the Navy pre WW2, he went on to work for the Navy as a civilian aeronautical engineer during WW2. Politically he was all over the map, in the 1930 campaigning against poverty and homelessness and in support for Democrats candidates and supported a lot of Democratic causes (and then ran as a Democrat), but was also fiercely anti-communist. He was vehemently opposed to stopping nuclear testing, and in the 1950’s was staunchly Republican in most views (though he considered himself a libertarian) and was socially progressive. As well as supported the Vietnam War. Later supported Reagan and SDI (and believed that military research could and would drive breakthroughs for civilian applications).
He without doubt did believe that Service equaled citizenship, but more in a sense of equality and respect, as well as due to his concerns over Nuclear War believed in a One World Government was the solution. Which considering his rather Conservative views on most things seemed quite unusual, but when combined with his Libertarian and Socially Progressive views, it gets even stranger - unless one can imagine a Utopia where everyone is equal and happy.
His Wiki page really does do his life justice as it’s got a lot of depth and references.
Maxman1
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The movie definitely was, because the director didn't read the book and has an axe to grind.
One of the many, many things left out from the book is that military service is not the only path to citizenship and the right to vote, federal civil service qualifies.
daftandbarmy
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Apparently he got alot of his recruit training material from watching the Canadians train at Ft Lewis, Washington, for the Korean War a.k.a. 'Camp Currie'.
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Ok so I get that the movie glorifies fascism in a satirical way, and that you "shouldn't" espouse it, however...
On the question/idea specifically of "service equals citizenship", either military service or some kind of federal public service, would support that idea alone be synonymous with supporting fascism?
Like, imagine that in Canada, every citizen is protected by every right in the Chart of Rights and Freedoms, except for the right to vote, which only goes to those who have earned "citizenship". Forget the military junta, forget the totalities, just Canada, with that one caveat. Would that qualify as fascism?
No not on its own. Only conditions for citizenship. We already have people that don’t have citizenship here and aren’t living under fascist rule. The book (it’s been a while since I read it) does define the various levels of citizenship. One being residents who share most rights but can’t vote. Heinlen was also quite adamant that the only inalienable rights you should have are the ones you are willing to die for.
No it would not. But in this current world no one can be stateless thus citizenship to people born he can’t really be denied but defining who gets to vote would not be out of the question I think.
Women could not vote, indigenous peoples couldn’t vote, under the age of 18 can’t vote, under 25 used to not be able to vote, non property owners used to not be able to vote etc etc. We weren’t under fascism then either.
The book goes out if its way to explain that every person has the right to become a citizen, with the exception of those who are incapable of understanding the oath of service. It need not be military service; in fact one of the doctors mentions that the state has the obligation to find ways (suitably difficult and dangerous) for medically unfit people to gain their citizenship.
As I recall, in the book the only additional rights that citizens have over civilians are the right to vote, to hold elected office, and they can also teach History and Moral Philosophy.
Heinlein seems to have intended the society to represent the value of duty, but also to be fundamentally libertarian. You have the right to become a citizen, but also not to try. You can quit at any time; Rico says you can quit 30 seconds before a combat drop. Even when the war goes badly, they refuse to consider conscription or forced service of any kind.
Brad Sallows
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There are very few political ideas that are unique to a particular system, although claiming "X, therefore -ism" is a popular game. It's like concluding you have a particular kind of respiratory virus because you woke up with a sniffle.
Most ideologies have commonly accepted shopping lists of characteristics, and the characteristics are usually shared between several ideologies.
