The War in Ukraine

[FJAG]

America tried that in two world wars already, and we all know how that ended...

This.

It's the argument that trumps (in the bridge card game meaning of the term) any arguments that says we no longer Kowtow to the British Empire and that we can safely hide behind the large moat that covers us on three sides so lets just buy ships and planes. Our foreign policy may be flakey right now but in the long run we have a huge economy that we can only maintain and grow in a stable world.

Eventually we will recognize that we have an interest in Europe and in immediately deterring further aggression there while we keep a sharp eye out to the Pacific. It's not easy being North America today.

 

[Halifax Tar]

America tried that in two world wars already, and we all know how that ended...

This.

It's the argument that trumps (in the bridge card game meaning of the term) any arguments that says we no longer Kowtow to the British Empire and that we can safely hide behind the large moat that covers us on three sides so lets just buy ships and planes. Our foreign policy may be flakey right now but in the long run we have a huge economy that we can only maintain and grow in a stable world.

Eventually we will recognize that we have an interest in Europe and in immediately deterring further aggression there while we keep a sharp eye out to the Pacific. It's not easy being North America today.

No debate. So let's just go to war and get this over with then, like we did in 1914 and 1939 then ?

The point being, you can only give money and swords for so long, and then you either shut off the taps or get involved.

 

[FJAG]

No debate. So let's just go to war and get this over with then, like we did in 1914 and 1939 then ?

The point being, you can only give money and swords for so long, and then you either shut off the taps or get involved.

Personally, I prefer the intermediate deterrent option of prepositioning a brigade (or even division) in Europe and beefing up our ability to sustain and augment that force.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Personally, I prefer the intermediate deterrent option of prepositioning a brigade (or even division) in Europe and beefing up our ability to sustain and augment that force.

And what of Ukraine ?

 

[brihard]

OvadAnd what of Ukraine ?

IMO, western forces in Ukraine, somewhat inside of the borders of Belarus and Moldova. Relieve Ukraine of the need to dedicate forces to defend those axes. Commit western air defence and air forces to project and protect expanding and increasingly comprehensive bubbles of airspace within Ukraine: nothing Russian flies over the soil of Ukraine. Allow Ukraine to focus itself fully on restoring its territorial sovereignty. Ramp up western arms production explicitly to supply Ukraine to this end.

You want to save resources? Cut Russia’s balls off and reap the peace dividend. It would also send a hell of a message to China.

Yes, western forces would be struck and some of our soldiers killed in Russian tests of our resolve. Spank the shit out of them each time that happens until they get the message.

 

[Good2Golf]

Personally, I prefer the intermediate deterrent option of prepositioning a brigade (or even division) in Europe and beefing up our ability to sustain and augment that force.

Probably why Poland is getting a lot of love from Uncle Sam.

 

[KevinB]

I dunno, the US has definitely given lots to Ukraine. The taps can't stay open forever. It was going to end sometime.

As for the barbarians and the gates, we moats that the barbarians need to cross for NA to be worried yet. Europe, well they should be concerned.

The difference is that we (America) committed to Ukraines sovereignty and defense.

 

[KevinB]

No debate. So let's just go to war and get this over with then, like we did in 1914 and 1939 then ?

There is little dispute that Russia is at war with us. Recently declassified information that has come public now is showing the tip of Russia’s actions against us.

The point being, you can only give money and swords for so long, and then you either shut off the taps or get involved.

We can do a lot more than we are doing without directly going after Russia.

We have a slew of options that can make life for Putin really miserable that doesn’t involve any Military personnel.

 

[Kirkhill]

The difference is that we (America) committed to Ukraines sovereignty and defense.

That is so 1994!

 

[KevinB]

That is so 1994!

Apparently

 

[Kirkhill]

There is little dispute that Russia is at war with us. Recently declassified information that has come public now is showing the tip of Russia’s actions against us.



We can do a lot more than we are doing without directly going after Russia.

We have a slew of options that can make life for Putin really miserable that doesn’t involve any Military personnel.

All that is lacking is one person that doesnt givafeck.

 

[Kirkhill]

Double post.

 

[Haggis]

IMO, western forces in Ukraine, somewhat inside of the borders of Belarus and Moldova. Relieve Ukraine of the need to dedicate forces to defend those axes. Commit western air defence and air forces to project and protect expanding and increasingly comprehensive bubbles of airspace within Ukraine: nothing Russian flies over the soil of Ukraine. Allow Ukraine to focus itself fully on restoring its territorial sovereignty. Ramp up western arms production explicitly to supply Ukraine to this end.

You want to save resources? Cut Russia’s balls off and reap the peace dividend. It would also send a hell of a message to China.

Yes, western forces would be struck and some of our soldiers killed in Russian tests of our resolve. Spank the shit out of them each time that happens until they get the message.

The Russian military has shown itself capable of absorbing punishing losses and still remaining effective. The Russian people, while not as resilient as they used to be, are still able to function as a society in the face of heavy sanctions and embargoes.

Russia is already being supplied by third party actors, including China. Push too hard and instead of sending a hell of a message to China, they may open up a second front against the west. Taiwan knows this.

Russia is also quickly managing to deplete western war stocks. Our cupboard is bare and others western nations can see the back wall of the cupboard already. Eventually, fiscal realities will cause donor fatigue to kick in. Maybe that's Phase 1 of another long war.

 

[FJAG]

And what of Ukraine ?

We have the ability to create the infrastructure to build arms factories. It's past time to do so.

 

[brihard]

The Russian military has shown itself capable of absorbing punishing losses and still remaining effective. The Russian people, while not as resilient as they used to be, are still able to function as a society in the face of heavy sanctions and embargoes.

Russia is already being supplied by third party actors, including China. Push too hard and instead of sending a hell of a message to China, they may open up a second front against the west. Taiwan knows this.

Russia is also quickly managing to deplete western war stocks. Our cupboard is bare and others western nations can see the back wall of the cupboard already. Eventually, fiscal realities will cause donor fatigue to kick in. Maybe that's Phase 1 of another long war.

Then it sounds like the other side has already shown up to play a longer version of the game, and may be winning. That’s part of why my take on this included ramping up our wartime industry. Keep what we need for immediate deterrence of China, and flood the rest into Ukraine to show both Russia and China that we’re serious.

 

[Halifax Tar]

IMO, western forces in Ukraine, somewhat inside of the borders of Belarus and Moldova. Relieve Ukraine of the need to dedicate forces to defend those axes. Commit western air defence and air forces to project and protect expanding and increasingly comprehensive bubbles of airspace within Ukraine: nothing Russian flies over the soil of Ukraine. Allow Ukraine to focus itself fully on restoring its territorial sovereignty. Ramp up western arms production explicitly to supply Ukraine to this end.

You want to save resources? Cut Russia’s balls off and reap the peace dividend. It would also send a hell of a message to China.

Yes, western forces would be struck and some of our soldiers killed in Russian tests of our resolve. Spank the shit out of them each time that happens until they get the message.

So you're willing to spend Canadian lives for the Ukraine ? I expect you're willing to go yourself as well ? How many of our lives is the Ukraine worth ? What's the desired end state ? Do you have the services ready at home to deal with more returning combat vets ?

The difference is that we (America) committed to Ukraines sovereignty and defense.

Everything has limits my friend.

There is little dispute that Russia is at war with us. Recently declassified information that has come public now is showing the tip of Russia’s actions against us.



We can do a lot more than we are doing without directly going after Russia.

We have a slew of options that can make life for Putin really miserable that doesn’t involve any Military personnel.

What are the repercussions of those 'slew of options' ?

We have the ability to create the infrastructure to build arms factories. It's past time to do so.

That's years and years out for us to build an arms industry. Great idea, but not impact on the immediate future.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The Russian military has shown itself capable of absorbing punishing losses and still remaining effective. The Russian people, while not as resilient as they used to be, are still able to function as a society in the face of heavy sanctions and embargoes.

Russia is already being supplied by third party actors, including China. Push too hard and instead of sending a hell of a message to China, they may open up a second front against the west. Taiwan knows this.

Russia is also quickly managing to deplete western war stocks. Our cupboard is bare and others western nations can see the back wall of the cupboard already. Eventually, fiscal realities will cause donor fatigue to kick in. Maybe that's Phase 1 of another long war.

You say it better than I can.

 

[brihard]

So you're willing to spend Canadian lives for the Ukraine ? I expect you're willing to go yourself as well ? How many of our lives is the Ukraine worth ? What's the desired end state ? Do you have the services ready at home to deal with more returning combat vets ?

Yes I am- more specifically, to contain Russian aggression and to curtail the likelihood of another longer, shittier war later. It costs the lives it costs now, or it will cost far more later. Was Chamberlain your math tutor?

I’m out now; had I still been in yes I would step up. Same as I did voluntarily for Afghanistan, which had far less to do with our long term peace and security.

The desired end state is Russia pushed back outside of Ukraine’s recognized borders and contain within its own, and a clear reaffirmation of state sovereignty, the rules based order, and the utter futility of attempting the ultimate international crime of aggression.

 

[Cloud Cover]

We have the ability to create the infrastructure to build arms factories. It's past time to do so.

It seems we in North America are at least 1 and probably 2 election cycles from that happening.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yes I am- more specifically, to contain Russian aggression and to curtail the likelihood of another longer, shittier war later. It costs the lives it costs now, or it will cost far more later. Was Chamberlain your math tutor?

I’m out now; had I still been in yes I would step up. Same as I did voluntarily for Afghanistan, which had far less to do with our long term peace and security.

The desired end state is Russia pushed back outside of Ukraine’s recognized borders and contain within its own, and a clear reaffirmation of state sovereignty, the rules based order, and the utter futility of attempting the ultimate international crime of aggression.

Don't be hyperbolic, you're better than that. It has nothing to do with Chamberlain.

It has to do with the simple ask, that if you're going to risk my life you at least think it out and are prepared deal with me when I'm shattered physically and/or mentally.

And that if you're willing to risk my life, you're also willing to stand beside me and field the same risk.

I'm willing to go and do what my country asks, I just want it to be sure it knows what it's asking and that it's prepared to deal with the aftermath.

The west also has a poor track record, since WW2, of getting in to fights and then turning them into money making adventures for big business, with little to show for blood spilled; and discarding the service personnel when they come home.