"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[Unknown C/S]

"It is not about esthetics, it's about quartermasters being able to keep the machine running with stocked kit."

I guess you haven't payed attention to the models presented here where by the QM would cont.. to hold its issued stock and all troops would be issued all standard army kit.  I guess the APS is rotten your brain.

There you go again lashing out (passive aggresion??)

The QM does not have room to stock double issues.
Hear me out.......................
He/She must hold replacements for kit that represents a 24hr turnaround. If the soldier decides he does'nt "feel" like wearing the issue vest (or whatever) the CQ will have to hold the initial issue and the replacement............... (double issues) But not for everyone. just for those that decide not to take it.
One would need an awful lot of room to be warehousing all that stuff with no way of controlling inventory.
Your CQ would be the busiest man in theatre, and the most pissed.

Models presented by some guy with a couple of years exp? Of course your idea will work

Go for it.



Modified to keep topic flowing.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Haircuts ? .........esthetics not important to todays fighting soldiers (apparently)

*Right 'cause haircuts are going to win the battles.  I suppose you want them saving when in the mountains too.

Product Technical sheets? Companies never doctor them up right? Long term test? Durability testing specs?
perhaps you suffered a head injury falling off the turnip truck, it is making you lash out.........

*CF products are generally built by the lowest bidder and those technical sheets can be fabricated as well.  Thanks for coming out.

Now when you bring up SF guys you hit the nail on the head. If you want to act like SF..........go SF

*I bring up the SF because they are using a lot of the kit the general soldier wants to use and I'm not talking about rifles.  I suppose DVA won't cover them then when their Oakley Ballistic Goggles fail them.  If the SF is using it I would dare say that its passed the durability test.

No one brings their own camel packs? I believe you are mistaken

*I believe I said the troops were issued camel packs (or is it backs) now which is in reference to your rant about MEC wearing soldiers.

You also choose not to address the resupply issues. perhaps later in your career (if you get there since you seem to have a problem getting grenades tangled up in your equipment?) you will have a better appreciation for the finer details of the supply chain.
*I'm not the only one that has trouble getting the grenade out of the TV.  Have you ever had a TV?
*And I did address the equipment issue.  The army would give an initial issue that is exchangeable just as it is now.  If the user chooses to upgrade AT HIS OWN COST then so be it.  If the issued stuff fails or the aftermarket fails s/he would simply get another issue from QM.  Your telling me that QM stocks all the aftermarket medically issued footwear?  I didn't think so.  The smart troops take both vests as something to fall back on.  Perhaps your fall clouded your mind when you glossed over that part were I already discussed this issue.

Goes something like this:

CQ, " Give me the n/s kit (TV) on the resupply and I'll exchange it one for one

Gucci Soldier, "I don't have it WO. I left it back on base and was using my own version"

"CQ. That's alright, I have nothing better to do than make the trip back to base, cut the lock off your locker dig through your kit till I find it. make the return trip, and bring your issue one out, and while I'm at it I will mail that old one with the warranty card back to the manufacturer for you when I get back to the CFPO.
No problem, that other section anticipating an attack can wait until tomorrow I guess.......an ammo drop is not that important

There you go again lashing out (passive aggression??)

*Your right I apologize for name calling.

The QM does not have room to stock double issues.
Hear me out.......................
He/She must hold replacements for kit that represents a 24hr turnaround. If the soldier decides he doesn't "feel" like wearing the issue vest (or whatever) the CQ will have to hold the initial issue and the replacement............... (double issues) But not for everyone. just for those that decide not to take it.
One would need an awful lot of room to be warehousing all that stuff with no way of controlling inventory.
Your CQ would be the busiest man in theater, and the most pissed.

*I disagree.  As I already said the soldier would have brought his crappy TV in ADDITION to his other chest rig.  What about the boot issue I have brought up?

Models presented by some guy with a couple of years exp? Of course your idea will work

Go for it.

*No models that have been discussed throughly by people that have been there and that have more then a couple of years in.

Perhaps a Mod should look at locking this thread (it is no longer about the MND)
Or switch it to a more appropriate topic = "Stop the kit issue and let soldiers buy their own with funds provided by the tax payer"
I find it ludicrous that someone will tell me that I can't carry more water, can't stay warmer, can't stay dryer, or can't stay cooler because the CF hasn't gotten around to issuing it.

 

[GO!!!]

Or this thread could be split again;

Dinosaurs advocate the re-purchase of horses and the Maxim Machine Gun, claim fire discipline and movement will conquer all...

                                                                  or;

APS NCOs still fighting through Fulda Gap as troops patrol Afghan mountains...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Just because YOU did it in Cornwallis cripplers and a FN doesn't negate the fact that it can be done better now given the technology growth in fabrics and online kit suppliers whom many have input from battle tested soldiers.
Is there crap out there.  You bet there is.  But there is also kit 10 years ahead of what the CF is using.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Seems as though this thread has headed off in a different direction.

Having said that; How long does anyone think that allowing soldiers to purchase their own kit will last? The soldiers protection is at stake here. If DND cannot confirm the individuals safety associated with substandard or non issued kit. How long before there is a pension issue when someone is refused compensation due to the fact the kit that was worn (and deemed to contribute to the injury) was not "officially" authorized, and there is a directive to stop.

The U.S Forces have already put a stop to this practice to a certain degree.


"Army Bans Use of Privately Bought Armor"
The Associated Press News Agency

WASHINGTON -" Just six months after the Pentagon agreed to reimburse soldiers who bought their own protective gear, the Army has banned the use of any body armor that is not issued by the military.
In a new directive, effective immediately, the Army said it cannot guarantee the quality of commercially bought armor, and any soldier wearing it will have to turn it in and have it replaced with authorized gear."

(Taken from
The Canadian News Digest, RCAC Association)

This will leave the soldiers out hundreds of dollars in purchased kit, and a lot of grumbling.
On the plus side, soldiers will not have to look like some third world army where everyone is wearing different kit.
I guess someone, in Ottawa, is going to have to get off their butt and start looking at an expedited mass purchase of "real" gear.

I've read the article, and the reason for this is that Dragon skin, a popular armour among US soldiers, claims to provide better protection than that which the US issues. These claims could not be confirmed, however, and USAF tests seem to indicate otherwise. It makes perfect sense, in this case.

It is not about esthetics, it's about quartermasters being able to keep the machine running with stocked kit.

No, its about the soldiers being able to keep themselves running. If the quartermasters had kit that fit the needs of the soldiers, they wouldnt be willing to go out and spend their money on non military issued kit, would they?

I can see your VAC letter now, "Dear Sir, the medical report indicates that the blindness to your left eye you suffered in theatre (200?) was caused by plastic infiltration by the "Terminator"  eye protection you chose to wear and the fact that they were not issued. As well, the back problems you suffered and the associated claim, is not being accepted. It is a result of the design of the "Bounty Hunter" tactical vest you were wearing. (Bounty Hunter went bankrupt due to lawsuits from this flaw)
We are sorry.

Well, at least he was able to write that letter, as opposed to maybe having lost an eye because the issued eye protection, say... fogged up and he couldnt fight with them, or any other injury having to do with, oh, say, not having a 6th magazine easily accessible...

Haircuts ? .........esthetics not important to todays fighting soldiers (apparently)

"No combat-ready unit ever passed inspection."

Esthetics ISNT the most important thing in the middle of a firefight.

Product Technical sheets? Companies never doctor them up right?

I fail to see how the technical sheets of a load carrying rig will really change anything...

You also chose not to address the resupply issues. perhaps later in your career (if you get there since you seem to have a problem getting grenades tangled up in your equipment?) you will have a better appreciation for the finer details of the supply chain.

You say in your profile that you are retired... Did you retire before trying out the new tacvest? Its an alright vest, IMO... but its too much of a "jack of all trades" that its the "master of none". The grenade pouches on it are small, it takes quite an effort just to get a grenade in there. I can certainly see how a grenade can be a pain in the ass to take out of its pouch.

CQ, " Give me the n/s kit (TV) on the resupply and I'll exchange it one for one

Gucci Soldier,  "I don't have it WO. I left it back on base and was using my own version"

"CQ. That's alright, I have nothing better to do than make the trip back to base, cut the lock off your locker dig through your kit till I find it. make the return trip, and bring your issue one out, and while I'm at it I will mail that old one with the warranty card back to the manufacturer for you when I get back to the CFPO.
No problem, that other section anticipating an attack can wait until tommorow I guess.......an ammo drop is not that important

Please, when would this ever happen? Gee, you're right though... doing a 1 on 1 exchange and pleasing a quartermaster is much more important than winning a firefight.

Your CQ would be the busiest man in theatre, and the most pissed.

Good. Let him be, if thats what it takes for the troops to be able to do their job better. Gee... I guess the tacvest should never have been issued, because it may have made CQs job of replacing the webbing a bit difficult. Of course, somehow other militaries are managing just fine with a system that permits their troops to buy and use their own kit (and encourages it!)

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I suppose Unknown C/S only used the ISSUED running shoes, socks, shorts, underwear, and PT shirt/regimental shirt as well for pt.  If you didn't then your a hypocrite.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile the MGS units stand ready to repel a Soviet style mechanized regiment. 
It’s good to concentrate on our current missions, however don’t forget that there are three heavily armed nations which we could be fighting in 10 years depending how the world goes. Not to mention India, Iran, etc.
The West including Canada needs to keep a light expeditionary arm and a more traditional heavy arm. People say we can’t afford it, but if things go south, then you won’t have the time to build up that heavy force. You may be fighting a new war with the “old Afghanistan” attitude and the newer soldiers coming up will look at you as the dinosaur with outdated ideas, such is the way of the world.

Back to uniforms, perhaps I can now sue for back problems caused by the useless (even then) 64 pattern and neck problems from the steel pot helmets, not to mention inadequate hearing protection,etc,etc  :

I am amazed at the quality of the gear that soldiers receive now, it’s light years ahead of what we used. By the way running with those loaded mags in your breast pockets was really hard on the nipples!!!! Although I suspect a few guys liked it.  :-X

I think the proper solution is for feedback from the troops is taken by HQ, who quickly reviews it and then posts a list of accepted gear. Give Company or Platoon leaders a certain latitude in experimenting with new gear, which then goes through the process. Military procurements are almost always flawed and slow to react, this balances out the strengths and the weakness of both systems.

 

[DG-41]

The only reason why you'd let an MGS unit anywhere near a Soviet-era mechanised regiment is if you wanted to disassemble a whole bunch of MGS-es without doing the labour yourself.

MGS is a "new army" system. It's a grudging nod towards the fact that sometimes it is good to shoot the infantry onto the objective, coupled to the idea that we cannot afford the armour package that normally encloses such a weapon - the assumption being, of course, that none of our future adversaries will have access to weapons that could penetrate a LAVIII-class vehicle.

If the MGS were a tac vest, it would have two mag pouches and zip up the back.

DG

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Dear Sir, the medical report....

How the times change.  I wonder how many WWII armoured crew were denied compensation because they used unauthorized mods to the armour on their Shermans?

 

[GO!!!]

If the MGS were a tac vest, it would have two mag pouches and zip up the back.

DG

BAHAHAHA!

Seriously though, as has been alluded to, the most effective method of kit procurement would be to expediently test say, 12 different load carriage systems, accross the spectrum from the cook/clerk TV to the 10 mags/6L of water light fighter, with modular systems in between for crewmen and others who rarely are away from their vehicles.

Give each soldier a uniform amount, and have him purchase the approved item which suits his current employment best. He would still have a TV in case his new rig thundered in, but would have the ideal solution the rest of the time. Certain items (helmet, body armour) would continue to be "non - negotiable" while allowing a measure of customisation for the troops in the field.

AND, when someone with a big fat stripe on his sleeve came to visit, we could all dust off the TV and have a nice, uniform parade for him.

All requirements met - kit for the troops that need it, uniformity for the CSM, and very cost effective - if cost was the biggest factor, simply classify the new rigs as "equipment required for employment" on the troop's tax return - the same as a mechanic's tools or a postman's shoes. Cost to the crown - less than $500 for each front line soldier - alot less than the TV, and a drop in the bucket when spread over the six months of the tour and the several deployments that top shelf, lifetime warranty gear like drop zone, Arktis or Kifaru manufactures.

 

[fourninerzero]

Just a question for those who may be more financially inclined than I, if one were to purchase an aftermarket Rig of sorts, would they be able to put in on their tax return as a "work expenditure?" is it possible to claim these sorts of things as necessary for our job and get the money back when we file our taxes?

Edit: My apologies for the thread hijack, but It seemed like the likely spot to post this question.

 

[Centurian1985]

I like the different supporting argments, but must protest over the term dinosaurs being used to describe 'cold war' old farts like myself;

However, to the point;

Some of our stuff is crap - given.  The current cadpad issues and associated purchases have helped (i.e. metal magazines, proper wirecutters, an actual poncho liner) but it took over fifteen years for some of this equipment to be recognized as essential for soldiers, and thus 'authorized'.  The same will be true of current needs. The situation wont improve until current users get promoted to a level where thay can have some influence on the supply chain (i.e. CWO's and Colonel's). 

on the other hand, some of our stuff is really good.  The gortex boots and parkas are nice when its -40 out. The fleece sweaters were fantastic, I wish I could have kept them when I retired.  But those are only a few examples. 

In the meantime, if you want to go play with the big dogs, expect to purchase some of your own gear.  If that means a custom pair of police special Vipers (those are so sweet, I own two pairs), to make your running through the hills and valleys more comfortable, so be it.  And thats the key - what makes you comfortable?  Issued grey socks? Hell I havent worn grey wool socks since 1988 (well, ok a few winter warfare jobs in mukluks, but thats it).  Need a quality watch? Buy one. If I was going back out on tour again I would definately be buying a 'second chance' vest that a Marine pal of mine I worked with wore during operations just for that 'extra underarm protection'.  For myself, I happily shelled out cash for a custom rifle-carrying bag (in a fashionable plain green canvas with black zipper), an Italian velcro-belt pistol and mag carrier (recommended for those who work in CI or CT, handcuff pouch nicely fits a utility butterfly knife), my own shooting scope (back when I was still doing long-range work) and my own personal compass (just beacuse i wanted to), and other small joys.  There is always something non-regulation that a soldier wants to have but doesnt get issued, and any serving member who denies they take 'unauthorized' items with them on deployments is quite likely a hippocrite!       

Overall, I hate to tell you guys but having to buy extra gear has been a problem since I got in in '85 and will always be a problem because there will always be sweet gear out there better than what we are currentlyl using.  Like it or lump it.

 

[NL_engineer]

Give each soldier a uniform amount, and have him purchase the approved item which suits his current employment best. He would still have a TV in case his new rig thundered in, but would have the ideal solution the rest of the time. Certain items (helmet, body armour) would continue to be "non - negotiable" while allowing a measure of customisation for the troops in the field.

AND, when someone with a big fat stripe on his sleeve came to visit, we could all dust off the TV and have a nice, uniform parade for him.

All requirements met - kit for the troops that need it, uniformity for the CSM, and very cost effective - if cost was the biggest factor, simply classify the new rigs as "equipment required for employment" on the troop's tax return - the same as a mechanic's tools or a postman's shoes. Cost to the crown - less than $500 for each front line soldier - alot less than the TV, and a drop in the bucket when spread over the six months of the tour and the several deployments that top shelf, lifetime warranty gear like drop zone, Arktis or Kifaru manufactures.

Or give a contract to a company like Drop Zone, for there ModCan vest, and different pouches, issue what is needed to the troop for his/her job or issue everyone all the pouches. Let them lay it out the way they want; and God forbid purchase other pouches if they choose. ;D

Then if the CSM comes around, there could be a standard layout, or use the old TV  .

Unknown C/S can you tell me were I am able to put mission essential kit like C4 (dets/detcord/etc.), mine stores (mine tape, flags, proder trip wire feeler, safety pins/clips for mines, etc.) and any thing else required in the TacVest?

 

[Bartok5]

Centurian 1985,

The problem is that the vast majority of soldiers currently serving on operations have to "lump it" thanks to the manifest inadequacy of the issued kit vis-a-vis the job that needs to be done.  

"Like it or lump it" is all well and good if the basic issued kit cuts the mustard for the majority of soldiers performing the task at hand.  When it doesn't (and it currently DOESN'T), then we have a fundamental disconnect.  Which is exacerbated when the staff officers responsible for said kit can't apparently be bothered to listen to their end-users.

I am sure that no offence was meant by the term "Dinosaur".  Everyone here respects your former service.  Having said that, you are now out WAY of touch with current operations.  Thanks for your former service and current participation in this forum, but you really ought to avoid voicing your personal opinions regarding ongoing operations and associated kit requirements.  If you are not deployed on operations, preparing for operations, or returning from same?  Then your opinion is just that - an opinion.  Unfortunately, such opinions are dime-a-dozen and manifestly lacking in first-hand credibility.  

Again, no offence intended.  I also served during the Cold War, having been a fly-over Jr NCO for the 1983 Reforger exercise in Germany.  The point is that those were very different days.  I recall from my brief Reforger experience that the "non-issued kit" affectation of the day was a thigh-holster (a-la Han Solo) for the C1 SMG.  That, and perhaps a U.S. rain jacket.  

What we're talking about these days is nothing nearly so trivial.  We are discussing the carriage and management of a soldier's basic load in a combat environment.  Your experience and that of our soldiers today bear little relevant comparison.  

I offer the above having bridged both your time and theirs.  Sorry, but with a retirement in 1985 your operational experience is somewhat outdated.

Sorry to sound harsh, but that's a fact.  FWIW.

 

[Centurian1985]

There seems to be some confusion here.

I didnt retire in 1985, I joined in 1985! I retired last year!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I'm not on the same page as Mark on this one.  Your post (to me at least) seemed appropriate.

 

[Centurian1985]

Wow! Two years since my last deployment and Im outdated! Technology must be moving faster than I thought!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

P.S. When I think of dinosaur I am referring to someone that isn't flexible.

 

[Britney Spears]

Wow! Two years since my last deployment and Im outdated! Technology must be moving faster than I thought!

This is not at all your fault. Look at what the Americans are using today vs. what they were using in 2001. Night and day. Shooting wars combined with troops sending up to the MINUTE lessons learned back to their buds via the internet will do that.

Also, let's be clear here. The TV is not just crap, it is a major step backwards from the 82 ptn webbing. The 82 pattern could be made adequate, with enough work and resourcefullness on the soldier's part - I can carry 15 mags easily on my 82 and stil have room for a few other things.  This was covered at some length in one of the other threads. According to forum SOP, there must always be at least 2 concurrent "Tacvest sucks" threads at any one point in time, so these things are sometimes hard to find.

 

[Haggis]

Then if the CSM comes around, there could be a standard layout, or use the old TV  .

Not all CSM's are APS suffering anal retentive pricks (but we can switch it on and off at will, which makes us sort of schizophrenic).  Some of us are forward thinking and innovative and receptive to new ideas, properly presented of course.