The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Journeyman]

...I'd be crying fowl right now if I was any one but Boeing....

"...God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly ... " 

 

[MilEME09]

"...God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly ... "

If you throw them off the peace tower they will

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

/DERAIL

No matter where I look, I just can't find any reference in any online curriculum of the DEFMIN to the fact that he ever graduated from any university.

He was commissioned in the reserves in 1991. By that time hadn't the requirement to either hold a university degree or be enrolled in one then have to finish it been introduced to the reserves yet?

Otherwise, he was a police officer (obviously a good one, that rose to detective), a militiaman who rose to command a reserve Regiment, and who had a few tours in AFG, where his knowledge of the local language made him a good asset for intel work.

However, none of this introduced him in any way to the Byzantine organizations that are NDHQ and the Department of defence.

Put into the mix that he is brand spanking new politician in his first ever siting in parliament and he is way over his pay grade (which takes nothing away from him as a soldier or policeman). Anybody else here thinks his appointment instead of retired Gen Leslie as DEFMIN  is a way for the Young Dauphin's handlers (Yes, the Chretien clan of the Liberals) to be in position to outmaneuver anything coming from Defence by using a neophyte?

/END DERAIL

 

[Loachman]

"...God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly ... "

For those that have never seen the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf3mgmEdfwg

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And today is the perfect day to watch the episode all over again.  ;D

"Baby, if you ever wondered. Wondered whatever became of me ...  :warstory: "

 

[FSTO]

For those that have never seen the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf3mgmEdfwg

One of the funniest moments in the history of sitcom TV.

 

[dapaterson]

/DERAIL

No matter where I look, I just can't find any reference in any online curriculum of the DEFMIN to the fact that he ever graduated from any university.

He was commissioned in the reserves in 1991. By that time hadn't the requirement to either hold a university degree or be enrolled in one then have to finish it been introduced to the reserves yet?

Otherwise, he was a police officer (obviously a good one, that rose to detective), a militiaman who rose to command a reserve Regiment, and who had a few tours in AFG, where his knowledge of the local language made him a good asset for intel work.

However, none of this introduced him in any way to the Byzantine organizations that are NDHQ and the Department of defence.

Put into the mix that he is brand spanking new politician in his first ever siting in parliament and he is way over his pay grade (which takes nothing away from him as a soldier or policeman). Anybody else here thinks his appointment instead of retired Gen Leslie as DEFMIN  is a way for the Young Dauphin's handlers (Yes, the Chretien clan of the Liberals) to be in position to outmaneuver anything coming from Defence by using a neophyte?

/END DERAIL

The Degreed Officer Corps arose from the 1997 Report to the Prime Minister on the Leadership and Management of the Canadian Forces; it's often referred to as MND recommendation #10, which is sometimes broken down into 10A - Regular Force, and 10B, Reserve Force.

CANFORGEN 154/12 implemented that direction, stating (in part) "...A START DATE OF 1 APRIL 2013 HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED. ALL PRIMARY RESERVE OFFICERS ENROLLED AFTER THAT DATE WILL BE REQUIRED TO OBTAIN A DEGREE IN ORDER TO BE PROMOTED TO THE RANK OF MAJ/LCDR UNLESS COMMISSIONED FROM THE RANKS. OFFICERS ENROLLED PRIOR TO THAT DATE WILL BE ENCOURAGED, BUT NOT REQUIRED, TO OBTAIN A DEGREE "

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Thanks for the info DP.

I had lost track of the timeline, and at the two reserve units I served at, it was an irrelevant issue: every single officer I ever served with at those units was either in university or had one or  more degrees, with one exception - he was a graduate from the Coast guard college who was a Chief Engineering Mate on the river icebreakers and a reserve engineering officer at the same time.

 

[PuckChaser]

/DERAIL
Put into the mix that he is brand spanking new politician in his first ever siting in parliament and he is way over his pay grade (which takes nothing away from him as a soldier or policeman). Anybody else here thinks his appointment instead of retired Gen Leslie as DEFMIN  is a way for the Young Dauphin's handlers (Yes, the Chretien clan of the Liberals) to be in position to outmaneuver anything coming from Defence by using a neophyte?
/END DERAIL

IMO, Trudeau needed an inexperienced minister to toe the party line and not question decisions. Saijan was that man. He owes the party for his election, whereas Leslie could have lived comfortably on his General's pension and courted other parties. Leslie could not be counted on not to point out bonehead decisions after he dropped his transformation report as a giant FU (calling the system out for what it is) when he knew he wouldn't get CDS. Leslie was placed as government whip because his entire job would be to ensure party line was followed, and to gauge his trustworthiness to take on other roles should Trudeau decisions cause ministers to have to fall on their swords through no fault of there own.

Best case scenario, we are now down to $6B CAD without a cash infusion to buy our next fighters. If people thought we had a capability gap with 77 aircraft, wait until we can't afford more than 50 in 5 years regardless of what one is picked.

 

[Kirkhill]

Now, that is going full circle for the family: When Trudeau Sr. was in power, he was often pictured as a ditherer himself. As a result, a cartoonist in Montreal drew a circular track with a limousine driving around on it. The Caption read: "Ah! Ah!, said Mr. Trudeau in the car, we are at a turning point in the affairs of the state".

;D

:cheers:

 

[NavyShooter]

Enter again the Scorpion?

http://www.scorpionjet.com/

Consider, we will now have 18 combat fighters, that would be able to do 'expeditionary' actions as necessary.  As we reduce the flying hours of the remaining CF-18's, they roll into the NORAD role.

Political 'football' of potential lost contracts is kicked out of the park by announcing that a deal has been struck to have Bombardier manufacture 100+ Scorpions for the CAF, and then they'll be taking international orders.  That 100 airframes at a cost of $20 mil each runs to only a $2 billion purchase price, but they get sold to John Q public as a 'multi-role capable aircraft':

http://www.scorpionjet.com/missions/

It takes over as the trainer of preference, replaces the Snowbirds, and becomes beloved of the nation, and is made in Canada due to the Bombardier connection.

This allows the coffers in Quebec to be filled, gives the CAF new 'more capable' aircraft, and enables the government to push off the purchase of real fighters by a few more years.

Does it meet the needs of the CAF?  Not as they're currently defined, but who defines those needs?  The people who buy the airframes and send out the contracts....and remember, it's not about the actual capability, it's about waving the flag and being seen to be 'doing something' for Canada.

Plausible?  Getting more and more....if we lose F-35 contracts, this would be an ideal "we are spending money at home" infrastructure solution, and would be a way for the government to crow about their successful business planning models and capability delivery to the CAF...

NS

 

[jmt18325]

So much for this not becoming another political tread.

At worst, we'll probably end up with more Super Hornets.  At best, this is a way to ease people into the F-35 whilst keeping a stupid promise.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So much for this not becoming another political tread.

At worst, we'll probably end up with more Super Hornets.  At best, this is a way to ease people into the F-35 whilst keeping a stupid promise.

JMT, there is literally no way of separating politics from military procurement- especially in Canada.

 

[GR66]

Enter again the Scorpion?

The Scorpion has no air-to-air capability.  Your scenario makes no sense as this aircraft cannot fulfill the most basic requirement of a "fighter" aircraft...which is to have the capability of shooting down another aircraft.

IF the Liberal government were to go for a "cheap" solution it would likely have to be something more like the Gripen or the KAI FA-50.  What other "budget" fighter will be in production at the time we are buying and has air-to-air capability and an advanced radar?

 

[Canuck_Jock]

Enter again the Scorpion?

http://www.scorpionjet.com/

Consider, we will now have 18 combat fighters, that would be able to do 'expeditionary' actions as necessary.  As we reduce the flying hours of the remaining CF-18's, they roll into the NORAD role.

Political 'football' of potential lost contracts is kicked out of the park by announcing that a deal has been struck to have Bombardier manufacture 100+ Scorpions for the CAF, and then they'll be taking international orders.  That 100 airframes at a cost of $20 mil each runs to only a $2 billion purchase price, but they get sold to John Q public as a 'multi-role capable aircraft':

http://www.scorpionjet.com/missions/

It takes over as the trainer of preference, replaces the Snowbirds, and becomes beloved of the nation, and is made in Canada due to the Bombardier connection.

This allows the coffers in Quebec to be filled, gives the CAF new 'more capable' aircraft, and enables the government to push off the purchase of real fighters by a few more years.

Does it meet the needs of the CAF?  Not as they're currently defined, but who defines those needs?  The people who buy the airframes and send out the contracts....and remember, it's not about the actual capability, it's about waving the flag and being seen to be 'doing something' for Canada.

Plausible?  Getting more and more....if we lose F-35 contracts, this would be an ideal "we are spending money at home" infrastructure solution, and would be a way for the government to crow about their successful business planning models and capability delivery to the CAF...

NS

Cheap.
Can be made in Quebec.
Meets no known requirement.
Painted grey.
Designed for use by Third World countries.

Perfect for Canada!

NavyShooter, like a job at DND? It's an Intern post; title of 'Minister'. No experience needed, all on the job trg.

(we had an ac like this before, remember the CF-5?)

 

[larry Strong]

Liberals order 235 military personnel, bureaucrats to take fighter jet details to the grave

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/more-than-200-officials-forced-to-sign-lifetime-gag-order-on-fighter-jets

The Liberal government has brought in an unprecedented gag order that prevents 235 Canadian military personnel and federal workers from ever talking about the program, now underway, to replace the country’s fighter jets.

The non-disclosure agreement for the equipment project puts the fighter jet replacement on the same level as top secret counter-terrorism missions undertaken by the Joint Task Force 2 commando unit as well as clandestine operations by the country’s spies, military sources say.

The permanent non-disclosure agreements were uncovered by Conservative defence critic James Bezan after he requested information through Commons “inquiry of ministry” process.

The information provided to Bezan noted that 121 individuals at the Department of National Defence were required to sign the non- disclosure agreement, 39 at Public Services and Procurement Canada; and 18 at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. The rest of the 235 were employed by the Department of Finance, Treasury Board, Department of Justice and Privy Council Office.

Five other individuals working on the fighter jet replacement project who are under contract to DND were also required to sign the non-disclosure agreement or NDA.

“The NDA is a life-time agreement,” the response to Bezan noted. Persons signing the NDA are considered “persons permanently bound to secrecy” on the future fighter jet capability project, it added.

Defence industry executives and retired public servants say they have never seen such secrecy surrounding an equipment program.

The NDAs were first implemented in January 2016, said DND spokesman Dan Le Bouthillier. As individuals became involved in the fighter jet work, the agreements were signed, he added.

“It was done to remind employees of their obligations to the Crown under the Security of Information Act,” Le Bouthillier explained. “Given the subject-matter and commercial sensitivities ‎associated with the work, it was deemed to be an appropriate and necessary procedure.”

He said that such agreements have been used with procurement staff before on occasion.

But Alan Williams, the former assistant deputy minister for materiel at the DND, said he has never heard of such agreements. Over the years Williams oversaw hundreds of equipment projects at both DND and Public Works, worth billions of dollars.

“I’ve never heard of this type of thing before,” said Williams. “I never required it of my staff. I think if I had, I would have been laughed out of the building.”

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan announced Tuesday the Liberal government was entering in negotiations with Boeing to buy 18 Super Hornets as stop-gap measure before embarking on a competition to replace Canada’s existing fleet of CF-18s.

That competition, yet to start, will take at least five years.

Bezan has alleged that the Liberals are pushing off a decision to replace the fighter jets until after the next election. The move heads off what could have been an embarrassing decision for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. The Lockheed Martin F-35 had the potential to win any competition but Trudeau has stated his government will never buy that plane.

Sajjan blamed the previous Conservative government for mismanaging the fighter jet replacement and creating what he calls a capability gap that now requires the purchase of the Super Hornets.

But a number of defence sources say there is no capability gap.

Earlier this year, Royal Canadian Air Force commander Lt.-Gen. Mike Hood said the CF-18s could fly until 2025 and potentially beyond.

In his appearance before the Commons defence committee, Hood didn’t mention anything about a capability gap.

“I know that some aircraft will end their useful life before that date (2025), starting perhaps in 2023,” Hood told the committee. “Others could last longer.”

But Hood added that he was confident that an open and fair competition would provide an aircraft in time for replacing the aging CF-18s. “I’m confident that if a decision were taken, certainly in the next five years, we’ll be in a comfortable position changing that aircraft,” Hood said.

Cheers
Larry

 

[NavyShooter]

The Scorpion has no air-to-air capability.  Your scenario makes no sense as this aircraft cannot fulfill the most basic requirement of a "fighter" aircraft...which is to have the capability of shooting down another aircraft.

IF the Liberal government were to go for a "cheap" solution it would likely have to be something more like the Gripen or the KAI FA-50.  What other "budget" fighter will be in production at the time we are buying and has air-to-air capability and an advanced radar?

Agreed, it meets no operational requirements in terms of providing an Air to Air capability.

It could meet other government imperatives:

-Ability to build in Quebec - JOBS
-Ability to build new factory in Quebec - INFRASTRUCTURE
-Ability for government to be seen to be - DOING SOMETHING

It would provide:
-Grey airframes flying over Canada at a reasonable cost (pork-barrel dependant)
-Trainer and Snowbird replacement
-Ground attack capability with PGM capability
-Supplemental ISR capability to 'help out' the Aurora Fleet
-Has twin engines, so that whole "F-35 doesn't have 2 engines" crowd gets silenced

Joe Q public would be happy because the government would be spending money 'wisely' on the CAF, getting airplanes, built in Canada, fraction of the cost of an F-35, they can bleat that the 'interim' CF-18 SH's provides 'all the upgraded Air-to-Air capability we need to sustain' until 5+ years down the road when they do another competition.

If the government buys it and calls it a "fighter" then the average member of the public will see it as that.  Grey, carries missiles/bombs, that's a fighter.  The inability to do A-A is something that'd get swept under the table.  Just like the average member of the public thinks that my AR-15 is an assault rifle, even though it's not select fire.  It's black, it's got a pistol grip and magazine, it's scary, yup, it's an assault gun. 

Is it plausible?  Yup.

Would it fill the needs that the CAF has?  Nope.

Would it be a Band-Aid solution that would make the Government look good?  Yup.

Personally, I'd love to see a mitt-full of F-35's show up, and sooner rather than later.  My relatively un-informed opinion is that with the sensor fusion and data sharing capabilities, it brings the RCAF into the modern world.  As a sailor, I know what Link does for us in terms of expanding the RMP, having that ability in the air in a fighter, not just in an AWACS will be a leap of capability for the individual airframes.

The realistic (read cynical) side of me sees that not happening, and something like this rolling into place as an affordable panacea that will please the public.

NS

 

[NavyShooter]

I will note one more thing....it looks like the AIM-9X could be mounted.

"The last upgrade to the missile motor on the AIM-9X is the addition of a wire harness that allows communication between the guidance section and the control section, as well as a new 1760 bus to connect the guidance section with the launcher’s digital umbilical."

The Scorpion claims it will have 2 hardpoints capable of supporting the MIL-1760 bus.

Doesn't mean it's a GOOD option, kind of like putting a Sidewinder on an A-10, but it is a capability that could be pointed at as an excuse.

NS

 

[MilEME09]

At that point those are more the oh shit personal defense engagement weapons, two AIM-9X's cant offensively engage an enemy, at least in my humble uniformed opinion. On the subject of the gag order, it screams to me the government is trying to cover something up, most likely this BS five year competition, or that their super hornet choice was made long ago and they were just waiting to spin it right )oh wait we all know thats what it was, we just need documents now)

 

[SupersonicMax]

I will note one more thing....it looks like the AIM-9X could be mounted.

"The last upgrade to the missile motor on the AIM-9X is the addition of a wire harness that allows communication between the guidance section and the control section, as well as a new 1760 bus to connect the guidance section with the launcher’s digital umbilical."

The Scorpion claims it will have 2 hardpoints capable of supporting the MIL-1760 bus.

Doesn't mean it's a GOOD option, kind of like putting a Sidewinder on an A-10, but it is a capability that could be pointed at as an excuse.

NS

So, you don't have a radar therefore you need to cue it visually.  To cue it visually, you need to see the aircraft.  That's at best a 5-mile pick up.  The 9X is not worth it...