The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Halifax Tar]

Why save money when the GoC wants to increase spending? This method requires no extra procurement/technical staff.

If your only metric is how much you spend as part of your GDP, procurement inefficiencies is a great way to bump up your stats.

Smashing that nail.

 

[Good2Golf]

But if you don't include the Aussie planes, then our current level of 72 operational planes would be 72-X = ? operational planes - this strengthens the argument to buy more than 88 planes.

There is no “argument” needed to be made in order to buy 88 jets.

88 is a figure of record, first messaged in Summer 2017 by the Liberal Government and formalized in the Dec 2017 release of Strong, Secure, Engaged defence policy.

Any argument to buy more than 88 aircraft may come in the future as Canada at some point either validates or refutes the extant requirement of 88 aircraft.

 

[McG]

I like the idea of grabbing a few extra F-35 to demonstrate a little more resolve against authoritarian powers. If we can figure out how to train pilots on a reasonable timeline, then this might be my suggestion:

 

[Czech_pivo]

I like the idea of grabbing a few extra F-35 to demonstrate a little more resolve against authoritarian powers. If we can figure out how to train pilots on a reasonable timeline, then this might be my suggestion:
View attachment 69769

Yes, someone who gets it.

 

[Quirky]

I like the idea of grabbing a few extra F-35 to demonstrate a little more resolve against authoritarian powers. If we can figure out how to train pilots on a reasonable timeline, then this might be my suggestion:
View attachment 69769

How much PLD for 2 Wg? Also "europe" is pretty broad. 2 Wing Anywhere Germany, sign me up. 2 Wing Romania or Latvia? Pass.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I like the idea of grabbing a few extra F-35 to demonstrate a little more resolve against authoritarian powers. If we can figure out how to train pilots on a reasonable timeline, then this might be my suggestion:
View attachment 69769

AETE doesn’t own aircraft, beyond a single Griffon that is being managed by 438 Sqn. We don’t need our own training squadron. We can train in the US (we wouldn’t require 16 aircraft for this). The real question is where will you find air and ground crew to fly and fix the aircraft??

 

[KevinB]

AETE doesn’t own aircraft, beyond a single Griffon that is being managed by 438 Sqn. We don’t need our own training squadron. We can train in the US (we wouldn’t require 16 aircraft for this). The real question is where will you find air and ground crew to fly and fix the aircraft??

The Sim for the F-35 is pretty impressive - so your training squadron could also double as a demonstration team

 

[Quirky]

The Sim for the F-35 is pretty impressive - so your training squadron could also double as a demonstration team

I wonder how close they are to remote flying a F-35 with the sim.

 

[Czech_pivo]

How much PLD for 2 Wg? Also "europe" is pretty broad. 2 Wing Anywhere Germany, sign me up. 2 Wing Romania or Latvia? Pass.

You need to spend some time in Romania - the skiing is great and the Black Sea coast is wonderful in the summer. It's not the same country as it was say in 1990. You'd live like a King in Romania and a pauper in Germany.

Latvia would be cold and damp, but you've got Sweden/Finland a short ferry ride away.

Germany would be my last choice of the 3. I'd be poor and surrounded by way too many people. Romania would be my first choice, if I could.

 

[McG]

AETE doesn’t own aircraft, beyond a single Griffon that is being managed by 438 Sqn.

The 2018 info graphic that I looked at showed 2x Hornet, 2x Griffon, and 6x Tutor. I guess that changed with the move?

We don’t need our own training squadron. We can train in the US

That seems a little parasitic but okay. Why did we bother doing it ourselves with the Hornets if outsourcing to the US is an option?

The real question is where will you find air and ground crew to fly and fix the aircraft??

Shiny new planes, European postings, and a recent Top Gun sequel should bring people to the CFRCs.

 

[Remius]

I am still wondering about the requirements. How many is enough and how many more would be better?

I’m not knocking the 88 one way or another.

I legit want to know what we actually need. Can we man our NORAD commitments and still have enough for expediationary purposes if that were to be the case?

Anyone know?

 

[Halifax Tar]

You need to spend some time in Romania - the skiing is great and the Black Sea coast is wonderful in the summer. It's not the same country as it was say in 1990. You'd live like a King in Romania and a pauper in Germany.

Latvia would be cold and damp, but you've got Sweden/Finland a short ferry ride away.

Germany would be my last choice of the 3. I'd be poor and surrounded by way too many people. Romania would be my first choice, if I could.

I whole heartedly agree. I would take Romania, Bulgaria or Estonia over Germany any day.

 

[Good2Golf]

I am still wondering about the requirements. How many is enough and how many more would be better?

I’m not knocking the 88 one way or another.

I legit want to know what we actually need. Can we man our NORAD commitments and still have enough for expediationary purposes if that were to be the case?

Anyone know?

It’s in the FFCP SOR, which is not publicly available.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I am still wondering about the requirements. How many is enough and how many more would be better?

I’m not knocking the 88 one way or another.

I legit want to know what we actually need. Can we man our NORAD commitments and still have enough for expediationary purposes if that were to be the case?

Anyone know?

I'm no SME but a country with our geographic footprint seems to need more than 88. But again, I'm no SME.

 

[Underway]

What are the calculation criteria the military uses when it goes through calculating how many jets we need?

I'm assuming something along the lines of:

• X hours are required for NORAD missions.
• 6 pack for multinational missions.
• Maintenance time required per hour of flying.
• Number hours required for training
• hours of other expected missions
• Plug into computer... get 88 aircraft.

I could see the number of aircraft the CPC wanted 65 going to 88 as a function of two things. Better information of maintenance time (aka longer time in maintenance then originally expected) and/or government direction on mission changes (more NORAD hours, a 12 pack deployability instead of a 6 pack etc...).

The SOR details aren't required here. More of a big hand small map sort of overview.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I am still wondering about the requirements. How many is enough and how many more would be better?

I’m not knocking the 88 one way or another.

I legit want to know what we actually need. Can we man our NORAD commitments and still have enough for expediationary purposes if that were to be the case?

Anyone know?

I'm no expert, and going of wiki here. But for reference the original 98 single seat and 40 double seat equipped 7 squadrons (3 in Germany, 2 each Bagotville and Cold Lake) plus the training squadron. We currently operate 4 + training. If training is being outsourced 88 might be enough to add a squadron?

 

[KevinB]

I am still wondering about the requirements. How many is enough and how many more would be better?

I’m not knocking the 88 one way or another.

I legit want to know what we actually need. Can we man our NORAD commitments and still have enough for expediationary purposes if that were to be the case?

Anyone know?

I was hoping for 140 personally.

WRT NORAD, if the RCAF was to want to dispatch all of the F-35 (once available) for an expeditionary force inside a US Coalition - I am sure the USAF would gladly cover the gaps.
That sort of tit for tat is done all of NATO, and I am sure it wouldn't be an issue for a short term NORAD requirement...

 

[SupersonicMax]

The Sim for the F-35 is pretty impressive - so your training squadron could also double as a demonstration team

I have flown the sim of the CTOL version a fair amount and the STVOL version a bit. They are great. We don’t need an F-35 demonstration squadron.

 

[KevinB]

I have flown the sim of the CTOL version a fair amount and the STVOL version a bit. They are great. We don’t need an F-35 demonstration squadron.

Snowbirds have entered the chat -- I hear they are burning an effigy of you currently...


I was just being snarky with the Demo team comment earlier.

 

[Dana381]

I have flown the sim of the CTOL version a fair amount and the STVOL version a bit. They are great. We don’t need an F-35 demonstration squadron.

Maybe the cf-18 will go to the demonstration squadron and keep them able to be called up to fight if needed.