The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Kirkhill]

Chris Pook:

Actually none yet contracted for, negotiations now ongoing for 36:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/rafale-deal-france-agrees-to-invest-50-of-contracts-worth-in-indias-related-sectors/articleshow/49487260.cms

Mark
Ottawa

Seen.  Thanks.

 

[Loachman]

Better some than none.....

You're not going to be able to afford any more machines by buying two different ones, and quite possibly fewer.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Indeed ....

Incoming Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will consult with President Barack Obama before restarting a process to replace Canada's aging fleet of combat jets, in a bid to head off damage to relations between the two countries, according to an official familiar with the plans.

Trudeau's Liberals campaigned on abandoning Canada's plans to buy Lockheed Martin's F-35 jets, pledging to "immediately" launch an open bidding process to buy a cheaper plane. Canada has previously considered Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Saab's Gripen, Dassault Aviation's Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, produced by a consortium including BAE Systems, Airbus Group and Alenia Aermacchi.

The incoming government won't open bids until discussing the matter with the U.S. government -- perhaps during an anticipated meeting between Trudeau and Obama at a Group of 20 meeting in Turkey next month, the official said. While timing is still being finalized, the consultation means a bidding process likely won't begin until next year, said the official, who spoke on condition they not be identified because a final decision hasn't been made ....

 

[a_majoor]

The story of India's fighter procurement woes makes ours look like a positively elegant process. They have not been able to build a truly competitive home grown fighter, their deal with the Russians for the PAK-FA is floundering since the Russian product is simply not up to snuff (and the Russians themselves cannot afford to put it into production, there are only 12 PAK-FA's currently in operation, including the prototypes; production was delayed) while their current fleet ages out.

Maybe the Indians could pick up our 65 slots on the F-35 production run if we really cut and run (and the Indian aviation industry will get a shot in the arm with access to new and up to date technology and production techniques). Indeed, if the Indian Government and Air Force was clever, they could arrange to pick up all the production slots that other nations have cancelled or reduced and push hard for a good price (after all, they are keeping the production line open and giving everyone else economies of scale).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Why?

As with the (faulty) submarines we purchased used from the UK, nothing says to the world 'we are not American' like a French fighter.

 

[McG]

When will Bomarc II come up as an alternative to the F35?
It seems fitting that it should be considered when others are suggesting an Arrow II be considered for our NORAD needs.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

When will Bomarc II come up as an alternative to the F35?
It seems fitting that it should be considered when others are suggesting an Arrow II be considered for our NORAD needs.

Does this mean we will be getting nuclear weapons again?  If so, I'm all in!

 

[Old Sweat]

Probably not tactical nukes, so the army won't have to dust off CAMT 1-8 The Brigade Group in Battle which was our doctrine on how to fight on the nuclear battlefield. Frankly, as one of the few surviving nuclear target analysts, I thought we tended to fling them around rather indiscriminately on exercises in Canada. Four brigade was a different story.

Going for a next generation Bomarc makes as much sense as trying to create Son of Arrow. The threat is a lot different than in the fifties.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

As with the (faulty) submarines we purchased used from the UK, nothing says to the world 'we are not American' like a French fighter.

Oxymoron? :witch:

 

[a_majoor]

By the time the Liberals leave and we can get around to determining what sort of fighter the RCAF will need in those distant times, these will have reached technical maturity:  >

 

[daftandbarmy]

Oxymoron? :witch:

Nicely done, sir.

 

[Zoomie]

By the time the Liberals leave and we can get around to determining what sort of fighter the RCAF will need in those distant times, these will have reached technical maturity:  >

That airframe and idea has been scrapped - watched it being done at DM.

 

[a_majoor]

Indeed the Boeing ABL is with us no longer, but the idea of laser armed aircraft is reaching critical mass, and the technology is becoming practical to the point that C-RAM, warships burning small watercraft with 100kW laser weapons, and various airframes carrying lasers are all out of the demonstrator phase to the pre prototype phase.

The Boeing was quite ambitious, looking at a megawatt class weapon, but even then, a megawatt class weapon is now an extrapolation of an existing technology rather than a novel experiment.

 

[MarkOttawa]

National Fighter Procurement Secretariat gone poof, many months ago:

...the Public Works Department disclosed to The Hill Times last Friday [Oct. 30] that the secretariat [National Fighter Procurement Secretariat] had been disbanded early this year because its work was done [no mention of that at the Secretariat's website--but it was last modified "2014-12-10"--a clue there I guess
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/snac-nfps-eng.html ].

“The secretariat was formed to implement government’s seven-point [action] plan. As the secretariat’s work under the plan has now been completed, there are currently no plans to produce and table a 2015 annual update [on the cost of acquiring and operating a fleet of F-35s over each plane’s 30-year lifecycle],”Pierre-AlainBujold, a spokesperson with the department’s media relations branch, told The Hill Times last Thursday, Oct. 29.

Asked whether the National Fighter Procurement Secretariat still exists, Mr. Bujold provided more information the following day, in the late afternoon.

“The Secretariat was formed to implement government’s seven point plan. As that work has been completed, it was disbanded in Winter 2015,” Mr. Bujold said in his follow-up email. “PWGSC continues to support all defence procurement by providing expert negotiation and contracting services to ensure best value for Canadians.”

When The Hill Times earlier asked the Department of National Defence about a decision last fall to extend the life of the Boeing CF-18 fighter jet fleet to 2025 from an earlier plan to retire the fleet by 2020, which would have been possible under an earlier plan to begin acquiring the Lockheed Martin jets in 2017, a National Defence spokesperson reiterated a longstanding government line that no decision had yet been made on the acquisition.

“No decision has been made on the replacement of Canada’s fighter fleet,” DND spokesperson Daniel Lebouthiller said in an email last Sept. 21, in the midst of the general election campaign. “To ensure that Canada retains a fighter capability during a transition to a new fleet, National Defence has extended the life expectancy of the CF-18s to 2025 [actually not, is working on that extension]...
http://www.hilltimes.com/news/2015/11/03/governments-quiet-dismantling-of-pwgsc-f-35-secretariat-means-fighter-jet-acquisition/44056

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

If Congress votes the money:

USN to continue buying Boeing Super Hornets as F-35Cs arrive

The US Navy officials have reaffirmed plans to procure an additional 24 to 36 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets through fiscal year 2018 while also boosting F/A-18C life-extension rates, primarily due to delays in fielding the carrier-based Lockheed Martin F-35C.

Boeing has been trying desperately to shore up Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler production in St Louis, Missouri, but the company’s difficulty in securing international sales has raised doubts.

However, comments by navy officials at a congressional hearing this week suggest more F/A-18 orders in fiscal 2017 and 2018. That’s in addition to the dozen aircraft that are likely to be funded in the current fiscal 2016 budget.

“We have a strike fighter inventory management challenge,” says navy air warfare director Rear Adm Michael Manazir. “If you look at the demands in the strike fighters into 2030, we have a shortfall. The shortfall in the early part of the 2020s is about 138 airplanes.”

The navy expects to overcome that shortfall by life-extending the F/A-18C from 6,000h to 10,000h and through the procurement of “two to three squadrons” of Super Hornets...
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usn-to-continue-buying-boeing-super-hornets-as-f-35c-418626/

Relevant to RCAF:

The RCAF’s New Fighter and Long-Term Sustainability: What About the US Navy?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/03/16/mark-collins-the-rcafs-new-fighter-and-long-term-sustainability-what-about-the-us-navy/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

USN thinking:

2-star: F-35 delays could force further extension of Super Hornets

Joint strike fighter delays may force the carrier Navy to fly F/A-18 Super Hornets even longer into coming decades, a predicament that could reduce training hours and strain airframes.

Plans have been in the works to retire the F/A-18C Hornets in the mid-2020s, followed by the F/A-18E and F Super Hornets around 2035, but the consistently delayed development of the F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighter has compelled the service to push the Hornets past their planned service lives. The dilemma raises the possibility that Super Hornets new to the fleet may still be flying in three decades.

“We might even fly these airplanes close to 2040,” air warfare director Rear Adm. Mike Manazir told members of the House Armed Services subcommittee on seapower on Monday [Nov. 2]…

The Navy has often been billed as being lukewarm on the F-35C, but part of that has to do with a current shortcoming: The aircraft’s latest software suits the Air Force and Marine Corps, Manazir said, but the Navy is waiting for a 2018 update that has a certain mix of weapons and air wing integration support.

“Because I integrate all my capabilities, I do not need an earlier F-35C with what they call Block-2B software, because it doesn’t give me the capability I need in my air wing,” he said. “So I’m not going to spend money on those earlier block models. I’m going to wait and buy the Block-3F software.”..

The Navy has plans to speed-up Hornet — and eventually Super Hornet — life extensions; coupled with a proposed buy of 24 to 36 new Super Hornets over the next three years, Manazir said…
http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2015/11/06/2-star-f-35-delays-could-force-further-extension-super-hornets/75291560/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Kuwait to help keep Super Hornet line going?

DUBAI: Boeing, the world’s second-largest weapons maker, said on Saturday it expects a sale to Kuwait of F/A-18E/F Super Hornets to be finalised soon, but lower oil prices are delaying some weapons purchase programs by Gulf states.

Kuwait was expected to announce an order for 28 of the fighter jets worth over $3 billion, Reuters reported earlier this year...
http://tribune.com.pk/story/986899/boeing-expects-kuwait-jet-sale-soon-oil-price-hitting-some-deals/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[SupersonicMax]

So, $107M each huh.

 

[MarkOttawa]

SuperSonicMax: Price obviously more than planes alone (URF). For planes (and engines) alone here are some real numbers, via US DoD “PROGRAM ACQUISITION COSTS BY WEAPON SYSTEM“
http://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2013/FY2013_Weapons.pdf

Procurement costs only:

Super Hornet, FY 2013 (p. 24): $2065.4M for 26 aircraft, or $79.4M each.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[SupersonicMax]

That was for US Navy SH.  I suspect international customers pay a little more...