• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

The Problems Facing Canadian Natives

Bruce Monkhouse

Pinball Dude
Staff member
Directing Staff
Reaction score
6,397
Points
1,360
Hey Tanner,
Off-topic I know, but I can never let an outrageous statement like that go by without calling the person on it, so tell me, exactly what have I and my family done wrong towards these people?   Please enlighten me so I can throw out blanket accusations whenever they suit my argument.
Thank you.

Quote from Tanner,
Sounds like the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. A document invented by a Canadian. Canadian culture, though, is stained by our treatment of Native North Americans
 
Tanner said:
Canadian culture, though, is stained by our treatment of Native North Americans.

I would like to know what exactly your getting at with this. The only stain we have as far as I'm concerned is the removal of "personal responsibility" from the native north americans. Although I'd like to point out that this is a massive generalization- I know some native people who are very much "personally responsible". Much to the chagrin of the tribal councils.....
 
Off-topic I know, but I can never let an outrageous statement like that go by without calling the person on it, so tell me, exactly what have I and my family done wrong towards these people?

Take a trip to Davis Inlet then tell me "all is well" in the northland. If I have to be more specific on the living conditions and the social state of Native North Americans, let me know and we can discuss this further. As for your question I really don't know how to answer it. We all are culpable to some extent.

The only stain we have as far as I'm concerned is the removal of "personal responsibility" from the native north Americans. Although I'd like to point out that this is a massive generalization- I know some native people who are very much "personally responsible". Much to the chagrin of the tribal councils.....

As a minimum that would constitute a collective loss of self esteem; and like I said, there has been progress (if I understand you correctly).

Saddam had 12 yrs to fulfill the cease fire agreements that his representatives signed.  As for peacekeepers, the Canadian IMHO has lost the morale ground.  The CDN miliatry should be able to deploy more than 2500 soldiers for 6 months at a time, it is a crime that they cannot. 

Baker,
You must have decent perspective on US operations (given your occupational exp), so lets talk about your 3 points. Point 1- Saddam was, and is, an Ass. No dispute. However, you cannot quote Iraqi non-compliance with UN resolutions as a reason for invasion!!  Point 2- IMHO??? What I would like to know how your intel was so wrong on the domestic situation. What were the military planners thinking as "major combat operations ended". The picture went horribly wrong. I need an accurate sense of the perceived threat and anticipated Iraqi actions (OPSEC respected). I want to have an earnest discussion on the topic. Point 3- I agree, IT IS A CRIME. I am ashamed of our military capability. I am trained Armour, need I say more.
 
Baker,
I just realized what IMHO means. But I do not understand your comment. Please clarify.
 
Quote from Tanner,
Take a trip to Davis Inlet then tell me "all is well" in the northland. If I have to be more specific on the living conditions and the social state of Native North Americans,

Pleeeaase, Take a trip to any big city downtown and you will see the same problems, but you haven't answered my question, Why should I and my family feel quilty about the way these people WERE treated?
 
Take a trip to Davis Inlet then tell me "all is well" in the northland...Canadian culture, though, is stained by our treatment of Native North Americans.


I think I'll just sit back and watch.

More rope, Tanner?

My job as a peacekeeper will be infinitely more difficult due to the suspicion and mistrust of Western Society.

Your not a Peacekeeper, you're supposed to be a soldier.

I respect a lot of your opinions, but throwing wierd, out-of-left field points around will only weaken your argument - which I think is valid. I am tapped out as far as posting goes (on this topic), but I wish you well with this crowd.

Caesar
 
Tanner, I come from a town with four reserves close by and a local population that has serious problems, much stemming from experiences in a brutal residential school system.   I'm a 2nd generation Canadian on one side and a 7th on the other living in the beginning of the 21st century.   How does this make me responsible?   Is guilt by association suddenly applicable to citizenship now?   How about we work to just solution for the future instead of letting the past determine how we deal with things.

Please, spare us the PC bleeding-heart line that paints Europeans as the manifestion of perpetual injustice, lest I somehow begin to feel remorse for my distant Scandinavian ancestors plunging Europe into terror from their longboats oh so many moons ago.
 
And I was just reading Mark Steyn http://www.steynonline.com/pageprint.cfm?edit_id=23:

SteynOnCanada

THE CRUELTY OF COMPASSION


Aside from the small matter of the war for civilization, I don't have much time for Tony Blair. But, among many marvelous passages in his speech to the Labour Party Conference the other day, he had one especially striking moment:

When I hear people say: 'I want the old Tony Blair back, the one who cares', I tell you something. I don't think as a human being, as a family man, I've changed at all. But I have changed as a leader. I have come to realise that caring in politics isn't really about 'caring'. It's about doing what you think is right and sticking to it.

Anyone can â Å“careâ ?, for what it's worth. Anyone can say, as Tony Blair's fellow Third Wayer did, â Å“I feel your pain.â ? But he doesn't really feel it, does he? He doesn't have to live with it, day in, day out. Under the debased rules of politics, self-proclaimed empathy is all that's required. The question is, when you stop talking, what do you do?

A decade ago, Canadians and their government were â Å“shockedâ ? by TV images of the Innu community of Davis Inlet in Labrador, a shanty town whose inhabitants were snorting drugs, glue, gas, and pretty much anything else that came their way. Having claimed to be â Å“shockedâ ?, our rulers then claimed to â Å“careâ ?. So they decided to build the Innu a new town a few miles inland, with new homes with new heating systems and a new schoolhouse with all the newest accessories. The new town â “ Natuashish â “ cost taxpayers $152 million. Two years after the resettlement of the Mushuau, let us turn to our good friends at the CBC for a progress report:

Alcoholism and gas sniffing continue to be a problem for people living in Natuashish, two years after the Innu community was relocated from Davis Inlet. The community of about 700 has seen four suicides in the past few months, and drug and alcohol abuse is rampant, say local officials.
   
Former Mushuau Chief Katie Rich says she has never seen anything like it before... Rich says children are going to school hungry because their parents are drunk or stoned...

RCMP officers in Labrador agree with the assessment, saying alcohol-related problems in the community are worse than ever...â ?


At this point, let's ask every reader who's surprised by this to put up his or her hand.

Well, okay. You're Western Standard readers. But let's ask Toronto Star and Globe & Mail readers, and Maclean's subscribers, and CBC viewers and listeners: how many of you impeccably liberal â Å“caringâ ? Canadians stuffed to the gills with â Å“da Canadian valuesâ ? are truly, genuinely, honestly surprised by the results of your â Å“caringâ ??

I thought as much. Now what are you going to do about it? Build another new town ten miles down the road from Natuashish but spend $300 million this time, and then another ten miles from that costing $600 million, and another for a billion, and another and another, secure in the knowledge that by the time you run out of vacant land in Labrador the government will have been able to refurbish the original Davis Inlet trash heap for another two or three billion?

Gas-sniffing is not a traditional Innu activity. Before the first European settlers came, the Mushuau did not roam the tundra hunting for Chevy Silverados. That's something the white man taught him. Or, to be more precise, the lazy posturing Liberal establishment white man. And, if any of us propose trying anything different, the Liberal Party white man and his cronies in the rotten Band structure dismiss us as racist.

Remember a year or two back, when the papers were full of stories about the aggrieved alumni of residential schools? They were doing a grand job of suing Canada's Catholic and Protestant churches into oblivion, a very small number of them for the usual excesses of randy clerics but the overwhelming majority for the far vaguer offence of â Å“cultural genocideâ ?. On closer inspection â “ which not a lot of guilt-ridden liberals could be bothered giving it â “ â Å“cultural genocideâ ? turned out to involve not genocide in the Sudanese, Rwandan or Holocaust meaning of the word but in the sense that generations of Canadian natives had been forced to learn about Queen Victoria, Shakespeare, Magna Carta, Sir Isaac Newton, etc. In other words, the kind of stuff which, back in the day when Lord Macaulay was writing his famous memo to Her Majesty's Government on education for (east) Indians, it was felt that everyone needed to know in order to be able to function in the modern world. The (east) Indians still feel like this, which is why when you call up for tech support you wind up talking to Suresh or Rajiv.

Imagine if our own Indians had just, oh, two or three per cent of that business. Alas, they fell into the hands of a vile alliance between the ostentatious â Å“carersâ ? of Ottawa and a corrupt artificial form of â Å“self-governmentâ ?. Residential schools aren't â Å“cultural genocideâ ?, but what's happened to the Mushuau of Davis Inlet should surely qualify. They were hunters and trappers originally, like the first Frenchmen on this continent. But the pur laine Quebecker doesn't do much trapping these days. He moved to Montreal's village gai, settled down with a nice young MUC officer from Algeria, and has no desire to return to James Bay. The Mushuau were denied those kinds of choices. Their old culture died, but we â Å“caredâ ? about them so much that instead of embracing them as full, free citizens we've maintained them in an artificial government cocoon for four decades. The gas-sniffing adolescents of those â Å“shockingâ ? 1993 TV pictures are now gas-sniffing parents with wee little soon-to-be gas-sniffers of their own. And on it goes, the curse of Canadian compassion, unto to the next generation.

Consider the sums of money involved: $152 million for 700 people. That's $217,142.85 for each man, woman or child. I've got a wife and three kids, so, had we been in Davis Inlet, that would have been $1,085,714.20 just for us. Imagine what you could do with that. Build a new house. Start a company. Hire some people. Invest in business opportunities. Get the kid an Ivy League education.

But the Innu don't have to do any of these things. They don't need to work, because the â Å“caringâ ? government pays them to lie around the house all day. And they don't need to buy a house because property rights is some racist whitey racket so all the homes are communally owned. That $152-million new town was a one-off, but the regular payments aren't so bad. In 2002, the local band council got $14 million just in Federal funds. That's 20 thousand per â “ or, for me and my gang, a hundred grand a year to do nothing. The result is pretty much as you'd expect. Everyone cruises around in brand-new pick-ups on roads that go nowhere, and, although there's no liquor outlet in Natuashish, when a town's that flush with cash, there's plenty of bootleggers prepared to provide the service: a 40-ounce bottle costs $300, and up to $800 on popular holidays. But, in a town where the government gives you $20,000 to do zip, it's holiday season all year round.

The difference between Natuashish and other native communities is one only of degree. If you drive along the Lower North Shore of the St Lawrence, where Quebec towns and Indian reserves nestle side by side, you'll see the â Å“regularâ ? schoolhouse â “ an older, cramped building past its best and remodeled one time too often, but still showing signs of life â “ and then the reserve school â “ new, vast, money no object, and already a dump. At Natuashish, one hundred children show up for class in a school that cost $15 million. Lop that and a couple of other public buildings off the total of $152 million, and the 130 family homes cost on paper a million bucks apiece.

Would it have been any more expensive to put everyone up in the Ritz-Carlton in Montreal with an unlimited room-service tab? That way, their vices might have been the comparatively mild ones of club sandwiches and mini-bar Toblerones. And there's a small chance that after a year or two of watching premium movies round the clock a handful of them might have ventured out onto Sherbrooke Street, and taken the first step to becoming full participating citizens of a developed society.

The buildings were never the problem in Davis Inlet, only a symptom of it. There's a reason why certain ways of life â “ those taught in residential schools a century ago, for example â “ spread around the world, and others â “ the Innu's â “ didn't. When you isolate people from the system that's created the most prosperous, healthiest and longest-living communities in human history, when you insulate them from the impulses that drive most of us â “ to build a home, raise our children, live full lives â “ the result is the government-funded human landfill that is Indian Affairs. Natuashish is a plantation with the government as absentee landlord, but the absence of work makes it, in fact, far more destructive than the cotton fields of Virginia ever were. How many more generations of the most lavishly endowed underclass on the planet have to be destroyed in the name of Canadian â Å“caringâ ?? We need to blow up Indian Affairs and end the compassionate apartheid that segregates natives from Canadians.

The Western Standard, October 25th 2004
 
Excellent post and an interesting perspective. I have always felt that the current system WRT Indian Affairs is no more than sugar-coated segregation, not to mention a complete waste of tax payers money.





 
Caesar said:
Excellent post and an interesting perspective. I have always felt that the current system WRT Indian Affairs is no more than sugar-coated segregation, not to mention a complete waste of tax payers money.


I concur,
 
Exactly how I feel. I have never done anything to them, and I'll give them no more thought or sympathy than I do to anyone else on a collective basis. I am not responsible for their plight and I'll concede no liability. If they feel hard done by, and need a hand, they'll  have to meet me half way before I become involved. Fair wage for fair work is how your supposed to live.
 
Pleeeaase, Take a trip to any big city downtown and you will see the same problems, but you haven't answered my question, Why should I and my family feel quilty about the way these people WERE treated?

How does this make me responsible?  Is guilt by association suddenly applicable to citizenship now? Please, spare us the PC bleeding-heart line that paints Europeans as the manifestion of perpetual injustice, lest I somehow begin to feel remorse for my distant Scandinavian ancestors plunging Europe into terror from their longboats oh so many moons ago.

Bruce Monkhouse/ Infanteer,
As I said before, I can't answer that. I don't know enough about you, or your condition, to comment. Any speculation on my part would be fabrication. From my high school experience, I can tell you that Native North Americans were not treated well. They were not integrated in standard classrooms or social events. Sports and other normal extracurricular activities were not available to them.

If I had been more mature, or aware, "would I have made a point of changing that"? " Would they have welcomed change"? It is difficult to say, but I would have a better appreciation of their situation. John Galt's article summed it up.

Infanteer,
I don't want to bring up your ancestral background. But if you feel some guilt....??.


Your not a Peacekeeper, you're supposed to be a soldier.

I am trained to be soldier, yet I prefer the title of Peacekeeper.
 
I can tell you that Native North Americans were not treated well. They were not integrated in standard classrooms or social events. Sports and other normal extracurricular activities were not available to them.

I won't deny this, however, this is not merely a phenomenon of Europeans "keeping the Red Man down" - many of the problems of the Native peoples rests squarely on the shoulders of their own community leaders, who are all to eager to take six-figure salaries, empower their relatives, and be happy to let the rest of their community live in squalor waiting for the next welfare cheque; the impetus for reform isn't there because those with the power to reform are happy getting the lions share of dole from the Department of Indian Affairs.   When someone makes on honest attempt to work with Natives to improve the situation, the "leaders" (the AFN is a good example) throw around the racism card.

The "Indian Industry", backed by a 7 Billion dollar federal budget, is alive and well....

I am trained to be soldier, yet I prefer the title of Peacekeeper.

Yuck, you can have it then.

I have no confusion about what I'm trained to do.
 
Tanner said:
I am trained to be soldier, yet I prefer the title of Peacekeeper.

I prefer the title 'Porn Star', but it doesn't make me one.

Seriously though. I have been tasked as a forest firefighter (BC forest fires/Op Peregrine), shall I call myself a Firefighter? If I participated in the flood relief or ice storms, could I call myself not a soldier but a Civic Emergency Specialist?

Peacekeeper is not an occupation, it is a skill or tasking. It is something we do because no one else can do it, but it is not our job title nor is it our primarly role. This rosy image of our occupation through your tinted glasses may give you warm fuzzies at night or get you slaps on the back at your next NDP rally, but you are deluding yourself. This view won't stand up, however, once you find yourself in trouble on a 2-way range. Believe it or not, you really are supposed to shoot first.

Get a grip on yourself man.
 
Caesar said:
I prefer the title 'Porn Star', but it doesn't make me one.

Seriously though. I have been tasked as a forest firefighter (BC forest fires/Op Peregrine), shall I call myself a Firefighter? If I participated in the flood relief or ice storms, could I call myself not a soldier but a Civic Emergency Specialist?

Peacekeeper is not an occupation, it is a skill or tasking. It is something we do because no one else can do it, but it is not our job title nor is it our primarly role. This rosy image of our occupation through your tinted glasses may give you warm fuzzies at night or get you slaps on the back at your next NDP rally, but you are deluding yourself. This view won't stand up, however, once you find yourself in trouble on a 2-way range. Believe it or not, you really are supposed to shoot first.

Get a grip on yourself man.

Caeser you're finally speaking my language  ;D
 
Peacekeeper is not an occupation, it is a skill or tasking. It is something we do because no one else can do it, but it is not our job title nor is it our primarly role. This rosy image of our occupation through your tinted glasses may give you warm fuzzies at night or get you slaps on the back at your next NDP rally, but you are deluding yourself. This view won't stand up, however, once you find yourself in trouble on a 2-way range. Believe it or not, you really are supposed to shoot first.

Ceasar,
Said with all the wisdom of youth. What did you do with SFOR? Perhaps it might be best to remember the 25 Peacekeepers killed in that conflict(as it is close to Remembrance Day). I don't think your opinion matters much to their families one way or the other.

As far as being a porn star, I'm trained Armour so I might as well put on some music since we know how far that will take you in the CF.

Aaron White,
Have you ever deployed? Have you ever been in or watched children playing in a minefield? Have you ever worn body armour because the threat level was through the roof? What language do you speak? Just curious!!

This discussion is really going nowhere. Do you have something meaningful to contribute?
 
Tanner said:
Aaron White,
Have you ever deployed? Have you ever been in or watched children playing in a minefield? Have you ever worn body armour because the threat level was through the roof? What language do you speak? Just curious!!

This discussion is really going nowhere. Do you have something meaningful to contribute?

Hey Tanner if you want to measure dicks we sure can. I havent watched children play in a minefeild but I've picked up childrens bodyparts at a traffic accident. Oh and I've had to break the news that someones child died on the night before graduation. I've delt with child sexual abuse cases. And i've buried more friends in the LOD than you I assure you.

Shoot off at someone else. I've been waist deep in "it" enough that I shouldnt have to put up with that because you were "deployed"   ::) Mine doesnt count I was at home right?

I think that saying we   are peacekeepers allows us to be lazy about not being ready to throw down the gauntlet. Soldier first. You cant keep the peace if you arent willing to stomp an ***. Dont kid yourself.

PM me if you have any further issues with my experience.
No I havent had to wear body armor because of a threat level(other than everyday at work). But i have fallen through 3 floors and laid in the basement of a house that was burning down with no way to get out.

Remember- you went here. Now lecture someone else.
 
What did you do with SFOR?

I was a Peacekeeper of course. That was what I was tasked with. I did not stop being a soldier however. We can be tasked with Fire Fighting, Peacekeeping, Aid to Civil Power (ie-riot control, Oka, etc), and so on, but despite being tasked with any number of jobs that are 'out of our arcs', we can't allow ourselves to be unclear on our primary role: kill enemy soldiers. Every Canadian soldier is either trained to do this as their only trade (ie-combat arms), or are trained to primarily support those that do this, and secondly to be able to do this themselves. To further illustrate my point, what is the MOC of a Peacekeeper? Please tell me where on BMQ/SQ/BIQ new recruits learn how to be a Peacekeeper?

Perhaps it might be best to remember the 25 Peacekeepers killed in that conflict(as it is close to Remembrance Day). I don't think your opinion matters much to their families one way or the other.

Totally irrelavant. With all due respect to the families of those troops, but what the heck does that have to do with this discussion? Are we now to consult the families of fallen comrades when deciding how to describe one's role or job? Those troops were soldiers fulfilling their duty. The fact they were not performing their primarly role when they were killed does not in any way diminish their sacrifice. If anything it goes to show the commitment they had to their fellow soldiers and to their country that these troops gave up their own lives in the service of peace (not their role), rather than war (their primarly role). These men were soldiers, period. To attempt to rename yourself (or disturbingly in your case to rename these soldiers) to the lofty title of 'Peacekeeper' is revolting. Is this a promotion? Are those that have done this tasking better than those that haven't? This is what it sounds like to me.  

Have you ever deployed? - who cares? Does his opinion not matter because he hasn't done a tour?

Have you ever been in or watched children playing in a minefield? - and because you have that makes you an authority, right? Because you have that means you can legitimatly shut him out of the discussion because he hasn't witnessed this, regardless of the merits of his points...right? Have you ever worn body armour because the threat level was through the roof? - I've stepped into a redhot ashpit up to my balls while forest firefighting, does this 'harrowing experience' give me the right to tell a recent fire department recruit that I've been 'in the sh*t' and he should listen to the Wise One? What language do you speak? Just curious!! - what planet are you from? Just curious!!







 
Seeing how this was about Canadian Native issues, I'm going to leave it open for now - but If the dick measuring persists, I'll just lock it.
 
Back
Top