the order of ranks,

[militarygirl88]

i was wondering if someone could tell me the order of ranks, i just want to know becuase i am constently getting confused with them,  :-[, thanks,
militarygirl88

 

[annemarielyman]

Here is a link to the pay scale on the recruiting website, hope it helps.

http://www.recruiting.dnd.ca/media/pdf/other/RegularForcePay.pdf

 

[Michael Dorosh]

There is also a list of duties and responsibilities related to the ranks at my site at http://www.canadiansoldiers.com - look for tables of ranks and responsibilities in the left hand frame.

 

[Zauster]

The army/armee site is best - pics with the names   http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/1_6_1.asp?FlashEnabled=-1

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Here is the direct link to my ranks page - scroll down to "post-unification"

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/ranks/responsibilities.htm

The pictures are a bit more clear than the ones on the Army site.

 

[Goober]

Great link Michael. Thanks. 

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Hmm....I think I may have mixed up the Senior NCOs - given the earlier discussion in another thread about what constitutes a Senior and Junior NCO.

Can anyone provide the QR and O or CFAO that outlines exactly what constitutes a Senior NCO?  I thought it was a sergeant or warrant officer, some have said WOs are in a seperate class, but that leaves only one rank (sergeant) in the class of Senior NCO....

 

[Michael OLeary]

The current passage in QR&O, Artlcle 3.01 - Ranks and Designations of Rank, only refers to "officers and non-commissioned members."

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/ch003_e.asp#3.01

The definitions at Chapter 1 of QR&Os offer:

"non-commissioned member" means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces;" (militaire du rang)*

"non-commissioned officer" means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;" (sous-officier)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/ch001_e.asp#1.02

There used to be a CFOA on ranks, but it was cancelled in 1987.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/003-02_e.asp

I also checked the 1908 edition of King's Regulations and Orders, which refers to "warrant officers, N.C.Os. and men of the army." There does not appear to be any mention of "senior NCO" as a description of any particular group of ranks.

It may be that the term "senior NCO" is an unofficial colloquialism used to refer to the sergeants and warrants (easier then saying "the Sergeants and Warrant Officers"), but that it has no official definition. Which would also help to explain why we see varying definitions offered, some, which you note, including or excluding the Warrant Officers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

It may be that the term "senior NCO" is an unofficial colloquialism used to refer to the sergeants and warrants (easier then saying "the Sergeants and Warrant Officers"), but that it has no official definition. Which would also help to explain why we see varying definitions offered, some, which you note, including or excluding the Warrant Officers.

Thank you for the detailed answer.  I suspected this as well (about colloquialism), but when certain Warrant Officers on this site swore up and down that Senior NCOs do not include those with the lofty title of Warrant Officer, well, who was I to argue with such a being....

 

[militarygirl88]

thanks for the info, it helped, just didnt want to call the wrong officer by the wrong rank, when i go in for my interview next week, 
militarygirl88

 

[Michael Dorosh]

thanks for the info, it helped, just didnt want to call the wrong officer by the wrong rank, when i go in for my interview next week, 
militarygirl88

Just say "sir".....  ??? ;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

"gotcha" Michael..............Just say "sir"..... ...or Mame ;D

 

[RCA]

Sgt is the only SNCO rank in the army because all Warrant Officers are separate as actually at one time the were handed Warrents (like a commission scroll). I don't have a ref handy right know.

And if in doubt, approach any CWO and ask him if he is a SNCO. I'm sure he'd be happy to supply you with the appropriate answer. ;D

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Sgt is the only SNCO rank in the army because all Warrant Officers are separate as actually at one time the were handed Warrents (like a commission scroll). I don't have a ref handy right know.

And if in doubt, approach any CWO and ask him if he is a SNCO. I'm sure he'd be happy to supply you with the appropriate answer. ;D

No offence, but I am not interested in the opinion of anyone, senior NCO or WO, I want to know what the actual facts are.  A reference is pretty much mandatory for that.  When you have one handy, I'd love to know what it says.  Thanks.

Incidentally, the only scrolls I am aware of for warrant officers are those that go to CWOs.

It used to be that Warrant Officers Class I were practically a subset of Officers, since they were permitted officers dress distinctions (Sam Browne, sword, etc.).  The other grades of WO were not permitted these. 

Page 53 of the War Dress Regulations for the Canadian Army (1943) list

Warrant Officers
Non Commissioned Officers
Other Ranks

However,the therm "Other Ranks"  can also be applied to all of the ranks from WO I to Private, depending on circumstance.  Perhaps this too is a colloquialism, however, I don't think so.  I would suggest some of these terms are not/have not been as set is stone as some may be willing to suggest (or argue) they have.

 

[McG]

I read a good article on this many years back.

. . . I don't remember the answer.  I do recall that "Jr NCM" and "Sr NCM" were both considered technically imporper terms.  At the rank of Cpl one became an NCO.  Sgt was a Sr NCO.  But was a WO still considered a Sr NCO?    . . . I don't remember.

I might still have the reference here somewhere.  Probably in the box of old pubs, stuff, & misc.

 

[RCA]

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/intro_e.asp

From QR&Os Vol 1 -

CHAPTER 1  INTRODUCTION AND DEFINITIONS
 
1.02 â “ DEFINITIONS

non-commissioned officer" means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal; (sous-officier)

Therefore Warrant Offices are not considered NCOs.

MCpl is not mentioned because:

3.08 â “ MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT
 
(1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal.
   
(2) The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal.
   
(3) Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of seniority as corporals.
   
(4) Master corporals have authority and powers of command over all other corporals

There was a msg out clraifying there is no such term as Sr or Jr NCMs and I will try and dig it up

 

[militarygirl88]

again thanks for the help... i will be sure to call them sir or ma'am, ;D
militarygirl88

 

[militarygirl88]

thanks for all the help, and info... i will be sure to call the interviewer either sir or ma'am, again thanks  ;D
militarygirl88

 

[Michael Dorosh]

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/intro_e.asp

From QR&Os Vol 1 -


There was a msg out clraifying there is no such term as Sr or Jr NCMs and I will try and dig it up

Now THAT is something I can sink my teeth into, many thanks.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Another point of view from Col (Retd) Joe Aitchision:

INFANTRY JOURNAL, No 14, Fall 1986

A HISTORY LESSON BY WAY OF BACKGROUND

by LCol W.J. Aitchison, as Commandant of the Royal Canadian School of Infantry

1.    In the good old bad old days of the Canadian Army, there were two types of people, called "officers" and interchangeably, "men" or "other ranks". The term "other ranks" was often abbreviated to "ORs". The latter group, that is "men" or "ORs" was subdivided into "men", "junior non-commissioned officers (Jr NCOs)` (note the space between "Jr" and " NCO") and "senior noncommissioned officers (Sr NCOs)". The term Jr NCO encompassed men of the ranks of Private (provided the man held the appointment of Lance-corporal but that's another story) and Corporal. The term Sr NCO included Corporals who has been appointed Lance-Sergeant (see the other story) , Sergeants, and Staff-Sergeants and was understood also to include Warrant officers Classes I and II. (Woe betide, however, the fool who called the RSM a Sr NCO.) Indications to the contrary, although WOs Classes I and II existed (with only the former correctly having been "warranted") the term "Warrant" as we know it today was not used. (For example, the home of all men, Lance-Sergeant and above was called the "Sergeants" Mess.)

MORE RECENT HISTORY - STILL BY WAY OF BACKGROUND

2.      Latterly, that is since Integration, the term "Sr NCO" is normally taken to include only sergeants (in which case why not just call them that) and we have adopted the designation "Warrant officers" to describe those holding Warrant officer, Master Warrant Officer and Chief Warrant Officer rank. Not surprisingly, what was formerly known as the "Sergeants", is now known as the "warrant officers' and Sergeants'" Mess. The meaning of the term "Jr NCO" has not appreciably changed, although the creation of the appointment of Master Corporal has confused somewhat the status of the Corporal.

3.      Pay attention because the next part is confusing.

PERSPECTIVE               

4.      The terms "Senior" and "Junior" as they are used in the context above do not relate to either age or time in rank. Rather, they describe the relative status of the included ranks and appointments. Neither in the days of the Army nor those of the Canadian Forces has any term like "Senior OR" or "Junior man" been used except where the reference was to time in rank or age. That is to say that there is no basis in usage or precedent for such terms they were simply never needed.

5.      Recently, we have had introduced the term "Non-Commissioned Members". There are two reasons for the introduction of this term, both of which must be understood if the term is to be properly used. The first relates to sexism and the second to sensitivity (though some may be sensitive to sexism).

SEXISM AND TERMINOLOGY

6.      "Men" is defined in the National Defence Act to include members of the Forces who are:

a.      not officers; and

b.      male or female (is there a third choice?).

7.      Although the term is not intended to be gender specific, there are 'those' who object to it on the same grounds that 'they' have used in forcing the coining of terms such as "chairperson", "fireperson", "cowperson" and "persons of easy virtue". Enough back-ground to the sexist issue.

SENSITIVITY AND TERMINOLOGY

8.      There are others of 'those' out 'there' who feel that the term "Other Rank" is a pejorative one. Again, as it was used in the NDA, it was not intended to be, but rather described someone who was:

a.      not an officer; and

b.      male or female.

9.    If this sounds familiar, remember that I told you in paragraph 1. that the terms 'men' and 'other ranks' were interchangeable.

TERMINOLOGY AND TERMINOLOGY

10.      The concern ones thought to themselves, "Since major amendment to the NDA is long overdue, why not include the minor amendment of 'what-we-call-our- soldiers-who-are-not-officers-and-who-are-either-male-or-female' in the major amendment and kill two birds with one stone? - so they did. They proposed a number of terms to the CDS and he directed that the term " Non-Commissionned Member" abbreviated "NCM" be adopted to replace the terms "man" and "other rank" as those latter two terms were used in the NDA.

11.      What we have then, is the current situation.

WHAT BUGS ME (NOT A LIST)

12.      ... as a (hopefully) literate English-speaking person, is INTER ALIA the creation of terms when they are not needed. The Adjutant will attest to this, if attestation is required. I therefore shudder to read, as I too recently have, such group designations as "SrNCMs" and "JrNCMs" and, disgusting as it was, "NCMIC".

THE BOTTOM LINE(S)                 

13.      There is a legal requirement for the term NCM. There will, in time, be wider use of the term based on familiarity. At present, it is too frequently misused. It is not necessary in course reports prepared here at the School where the traditional terms "WO" and "NCO" adequately describe the rank groupings which they include. It is equally unnecessary in PERs where phrases such as "He (or she) is the best Private in the Company" are both correct and descriptive. If you feel it appropriate, by all means use `NCM" to describe Forces personnel who are:

a.      not officers;

b.      either male or female; and

c.    for whom some other equally descriptive term is not available,

B U T

DON'T USE IT IN WORK FOR MY SIGNATURE!