The Haiti Super Thread- Merged

[Ex-Dragoon]

I am not a military expert but I can only imagine more funding coming in from the government so that we can handle it...

Past experience has the funds being cut from the military budget to cover expenses such as this.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I agree with Ex-D here...we'll rob Peter to pay Paul most likely.

Maybe, just maybe, they'll cancel The Maple Leaf or something instead of "beans n bullets" type stuff.

 

[brihard]

OK, so the VanDoos had Roto 7, and now they've got this. Are they scheduled for another Kandahar tour between now and 2011, or can the other two R22eR battalions scrape together a back-to back Haiti roto while Afghanistan winds down?

I can already say from what I'm hearing that there will be a lot of interest from the reserves for deployment on this one, and I think the environment would be more conducive than Kandahar for higher reserve participation... Either way, I don't envy the guys who have to figure all this out over the next few weeks.

 

[54/102 CEF]

I agree with Ex-D here...we'll rob Peter to pay Paul most likely.

Maybe, just maybe, they'll cancel The Maple Leaf or something instead of "beans n bullets" type stuff.

Cancel 11:30 a.m. shopping at NDHQ

 

[Journeyman]

Maybe, just maybe, they'll cancel The Maple Leaf or something instead of "beans n bullets" type stuff.

:rofl:  I love stand-up comedy first thing in the morning.

You can expect to see the 10/90 battalions back before we start thining out PAOs.....or TDOs.....or JAGs...



...to say nothing of the telephone sanitizers, hairdressers, tired TV producers, insurance salesmen, personnel officers, security guards, public relations executives, management consultants...  ;D

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from CBC.ca:

.... The ships were preparing Monday morning to meet with a U.S. navy supply ship to replenish their fuel, said CBC reporter Rob Gordon, who is aboard Athabaskan.

Gordon said it's still unclear where the Canadians will go, but their focus will be on areas outside the capital of Port-au-Prince that are inaccessible by land.

A navy helicopter is expected to fly over the coast to scout for locations for the landing parties.

The two ships and their combined crew of 500 left Halifax on Thursday. The sailors have been busy training and preparing supplies for their mission, and are eager to start to help, Gordon said.

The 60-person teams will go ashore in inflatable boats while the big ships remain at sea. They will clear roads of debris so that aid convoys can get in, offer first aid if they can, and look for Canadians and the bodies of Canadians so they can be returned home.

The teams will carry chainsaws, concrete cutters and body bags, and return to their ships just before sunset.

The sailors will be protected by a naval boarding party carrying 9-mm handguns, due to reports of lawlessness in the devastated country with the collapse of the police force and legal system ....

Don't know if that's correct, but I'm impressed with how easy this is to understand - gee, reporters explaining CF ops in plain language, go figure.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Excerpt from latest from Minister of Nat'l Defence:

.... In the past 24 hrs we have delivered 91,340 pounds of aid, bringing the total to more than 313 tonnes transported by the CF.This includes medical supplies, logistical supplies, vehicles, communications equipment, basic food rations and a sand water purification system. Two additional sand water purification systems are scheduled to arrive today.

CF members are providing security to both the recently established Belgian Role 2 hospital at L’Hopital de la Paix and the Canadian embassy. CF medical personnel are working tirelessly treating injured Canadians arriving at the Embassy and at the Role 2 hospital.  CF engineers are conducting structural assessments and lending expertise, while Search and Rescue technicians and CF firefighters are providing expertise and assisting at the Hospital in Search and Rescue efforts ....

According to the Canadian Press, the CF will focus their efforts on Jacmel, a port town on the southern coast of Haiti (also home town to Canada's GG):

Canada's Disaster Assistance Response Team will be focusing its efforts on the hard-hit town of Jacmel, just outside Haiti's capital city, the commander of Canadian forces in the country said Monday.

Brig. Gen. Guy Laroche said the DART is well-suited to have a significant impact in the town, which is some 35 kilometres outside of Port-au-Prince and relatively tiny, compared to the millions who live in the shattered capital.

"We could have gone to many places; Jacmel is one of the places that is required for us to go," Laroche told a news conference on the balcony at the Canadian Embassy.

"There has been damage there ... DART is well equipped to make a difference and to help the people in Jacmel. It could have been any other place."

Laroche and Gilles Rivard, Canada's ambassador to Haiti, both agreed Jacmel - home to some 40,000 people and also the hometown of Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean - is also a top priority for the Haitian government.

Dan Dugas, a spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay, said the governor general had no hand in the decision to concentrate efforts on Jacmel.

"The decision where to establish the Canadian area of operations is made by the Canadian Forces chain of command, based on the recommendation of the brigadier general on the ground," Dugas said from Ottawa.

"The governor general is not involved in the decision."

Jacmel, which is also where one of two Canadian warships is headed, is "cut off from the world" and deserves to be a priority for the relief effort - especially considering it is also a stated priority for the Haitian government itself....

Selected OSINT sources of info/news on Jacmel:
Wikipedia (with usual Wikipedia caveats)
Weather in Jacmel (Weather Underground)
Tide Forecast for Jacmel
Google News "Jacmel"
European Commission NewsBrief:  Jacmel
NewsNow:  Jacmel
Twitter feed search:  Jacmel
Rescue Jacmel (a collection of NGO sources/blogs focusing on work required in Jacmel)

 

[vonGarvin]

Just checking Google Earth.  There is a runway strip there, measuring at 3300 feet.  No apparent control tower from the photo is apparent.  Still, may be better than taking Route 204 from PAP the west end of Port au Prince, which is about 30 km through a winding mountain pass through the mountains.  As well, there appear to be some rudimentary port facilities.  If they survived the quake, it would be interesting to see if the two ships en route/already there could dock to alleviate the shuttling required to get stuff in there.

EDIT: from the airport to Jacmel is aroud 90 km, through the city, and through the mountains.  Experience there tells me that this route would be rather difficult in the best of times, let alone in the current situation.  I hope they recce the air strip in Jacmel, and fly stuff in there.  I hope it is long enough and can support a C-130 or C-17.  It certainly would help.

 

[brihard]

Just checking Google Earth.  There is a runway strip there, measuring at 3300 feet.  No apparent control tower from the photo is apparent.  Still, may be better than taking Route 204 from PAP the west end of Port au Prince, which is about 30 km through a winding mountain pass through the mountains.  As well, there appear to be some rudimentary port facilities.  If they survived the quake, it would be interesting to see if the two ships en route/already there could dock to alleviate the shuttling required to get stuff in there.

EDIT: from the airport to Jacmel is aroud 90 km, through the city, and through the mountains.  Experience there tells me that this route would be rather difficult in the best of times, let alone in the current situation.  I hope they recce the air strip in Jacmel, and fly stuff in there.  I hope it is long enough and can support a C-130 or C-17.  It certainly would help.

I don't even know if this is a sensible question to ask, but would it be within the realm of the possible to extend the airstrip to accommodate Globemasters? I'm sure there must be a drawer in some air force HQ full of exactly these answers... From my understanding of the C17, it would need at least another 200 feet of runway to operate, and they're rough field capable. Would that be a realistic Roto 0 engineering task? I know the C-130 can handle a field of the existing length at close to max takeoff weight, so that's a start.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Not sure about what our payloads are right now but........

Take off from a 7,600-ft. airfield, carry a payload of 160,000 pounds, fly 2,400 nautical miles, refuel while in flight and land in 3,000 ft. or less on a small unpaved or paved airfield in day or night

REF: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/c17/index.htm

So it could land but might not have enough room to take off.......

 

[brihard]

Not sure about what our payloads are right now but........

Take off from a 7,600-ft. airfield, carry a payload of 160,000 pounds, fly 2,400 nautical miles, refuel while in flight and land in 3,000 ft. or less on a small unpaved or paved airfield in day or night

REF: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/c17/index.htm

So it could land but might not have enough room to take off.......

OK. The figures I found on Wiki (I know)quoted a 3500ft runway for an unloaded takeoff. Potentially we could stretch it enough to land and offload bulk goods, and take off again at the lower weight a return flight would probably involve?

 

[vonGarvin]

Or, they could fly C-17 loads to PAP, then transfer to flips to Jacmel by C-130?  Of course, I would imagine that Jacmel would need aerospace controllers.  From the web, I recall seeing some sort of such capability in Trenton...

Positions the requisite air techs, etc to do maintenance, put a fuel point in there (FARP?), build tent city around it to house the members, and voila, you have yourselves a spot from which to operate.

 

[GAP]

On the news last night the commentator, when they were showing Brig.-Gen. Guy Laroche viewing Jacmel, was saying that while the area had a runway, there was concern about the weight it could carry. The chosing of type of airplane to land might be more critical than we realize.

 

[Jammer]

8 ATCCU (Deployable control tower types) in Trenton can do the ATC task.
Too the Buffalo fleet was thinned out. it might have been the perfect machine for the job.

 

[vonGarvin]

On the news last night the commentator, when they were showing Brig.-Gen. Guy Laroche viewing Jacmel, was saying that while the area had a runway, there was concern about the weight it could carry. The chosing of type of airplane to land might be more critical than we realize.

Perhaps then HMC Ships bring in what they can, and between the helicopters, ferry stuff from Port au Prince.  Those roads are brutal in the mountains, and when the rains come (which they will), they are virtually impassable.  I would offer up that Airfield Engineers get to JACMEL to upgrade the load capacity of that strip.

Didn't someone say something about Airborne Engineering Group? ;D

 

[GAP]

Didn't we order some Chinooks?.....sure be nice to have them now, almost as nice as those C-17's everybody (Libs, etc) was saying we didn't need......

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from CBC.ca:

The United Nations Security Council was expected to approve on Tuesday an increase in peacekeeping forces in Haiti to boost security and help in the distribution of food and water to the victims of the country's devastating earthquake.

Currently there are around 9,000 United Nations security personnel in Haiti. The vote was expected to add 1,500 more UN police and 2,000 more peacekeepers.

Relief workers say violence is hampering the already slow delivery of aid. Some locals have begun forming night brigades and machete-armed mobs to fight bandits across Port-au-Prince, the capital ....

Oh, wait, are those reports of "bandits" just a ruse to sneak in lots of soldiers? 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/91677
:

 

[Jammer]

For what it's worth I just Flight Simmed my C-130 with 35000lbs of cargo into Jacmel from PAP last night.
I think this proves TVs theory of crossloading from C-17s... ;D

 

[vonGarvin]

For what it's worth I just Flight Simmed my C-130 with 35000lbs of cargo into Jacmel from PAP last night.
I think this proves TVs theory of crossloading from C-17s... ;D

I flight simmed it too, using GoogleEarth.  The F-16 overshot the runway; however, the little plane made it.  I approached from the north, though I did cross the road at the other end  ;D

 

[tomahawk6]

I think airdrops are the way to go for the interim and avoids congestion at the airport in PAP. The USAF has already begun making airdrops and its probably the fastest way to help the people inland.