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Why? I have dual citizenship, along with that spiffy red EU passport. Makes travel in Europe a breeze, why wouldn't I use it?Duey said:
The Evacuation of Canadians from Lebanon Thread
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Trinity
Army.ca Veteran
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Yeah.... great idea..
Citizens and Civilians
oh wait.. until you realize that you are going to have discrimination from
one group to the other.
I'm not for any idea that's going to create separate classes because that's exactly
what would happen here. Not necessarily the have's and have nots, but you would definitely
create a new boundary where discrimination will happen. We already have enough reasons
to discriminate against our fellow man... do we really want one more?
Citizens and Civilians
oh wait.. until you realize that you are going to have discrimination from
one group to the other.
I'm not for any idea that's going to create separate classes because that's exactly
what would happen here. Not necessarily the have's and have nots, but you would definitely
create a new boundary where discrimination will happen. We already have enough reasons
to discriminate against our fellow man... do we really want one more?
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Not sure if it's relevant, but I knew quite a few South Africans in the early 1990s.
Almost all of them had or were seeking dual citizenship- British, U.S., Canadian, Australian, etc.
They were quite up front about it. They were afraid that the end of apartheid was going to be a bloody civil war, and that whites would be persecuted (much like Mugabe's Zimbabwe).
So they carried two passports so they could escape in a hurry if things went wrong. They weren't thinking in terms of loyalty rather in terms of practicality.
I have no clue if that's what many of the Lebanese are doing, but it would make sense considering what a powder-keg that whole region is.
Almost all of them had or were seeking dual citizenship- British, U.S., Canadian, Australian, etc.
They were quite up front about it. They were afraid that the end of apartheid was going to be a bloody civil war, and that whites would be persecuted (much like Mugabe's Zimbabwe).
So they carried two passports so they could escape in a hurry if things went wrong. They weren't thinking in terms of loyalty rather in terms of practicality.
I have no clue if that's what many of the Lebanese are doing, but it would make sense considering what a powder-keg that whole region is.
Trinity said:
We already have the distinction. Canadian residents and Permanent Residents. Right now the only requirement to apply for citizenship is time in country. 3 years. So why not have a requirement to earn it other than time? How about tangible contributions or service to state?
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http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1153433434245&call_pageid=970599119419
EDITORIAL: Dual citizens all equally Canadian
Jul. 21, 2006. 08:46 AM
Of the 50,000 Canadians who have found themselves caught in the middle of the brutal conflict raging in Lebanon between Israeli and Hezbollah, many are mothers who no doubt love all their children equally.
So why is it that some Canadians in all parts of this country are asking whether these same mothers — or their husbands, children or uncles and aunts — can be loyal to two countries at the same time?
The question of dual citizenship has become a hot issue since Ottawa announced it would evacuate all Canadian citizens who want to leave Lebanon and bring them home at taxpayers' expense.
To start, many people were surprised to learn 50,000 Canadians were in Lebanon when Israel launched attacks after Hezbollah militants captured two Israeli soldiers and killed seven others. Many Canadians there at the time were tourists; most of the rest lived year-round in Lebanon.
Why, the critics ask, does Canada allow people to hold Canadian citizenship when they have chosen to live in another country? What obligation does the Canadian government have to spend millions of dollars to rescue people who may carry a Canadian passport strictly as a matter of convenience? And why does Canada even grant citizenship to people who are citizens of some other country?
The federal government answered the last question back in 1977 when it updated the Citizenship Act to allow Canadians "to have two or more citizenships and allegiances at the same time." The 1977 act made Canada one of the first of countries to permit dual citizenship. Today, about half of the world's nations allow their citizens to be a citizen of another country.
When the act was approved, Ottawa recognized that a country heavily dependent on immigration for its growth could not expect immigrants to leave their previous lives completely behind when they came here. Dual citizenship was an acknowledgement that people have multiple connections in a rapidly shrinking world — to family, to identity, history and culture — that cannot nor should not be denied.
Today, there are roughly 600,000 naturalized Canadians who maintain dual citizenship. Clearly some of them use — and occasionally abuse — their Canadian citizenship as an "insurance policy" in times of trouble or as a "passport of convenience" when they travel and work abroad. But the majority are decent, hardworking Canadians with ties to both their adopted country of Canada and to their homeland. Did the French passport that Governor General Michaëlle Jean possessed until last year really make her less of a Canadian? Is Queen Elizabeth any less British — or any less Canadian — for being a citizen of 17 different countries?
As far as the government and the law are concerned, a Canadian is a Canadian. That is why Ottawa has a moral obligation to rescue any Canadian in Lebanon who wants out — regardless of whether they went to Lebanon to care for a sick parent, to earn a living or to live out their retirement.
Canada is desperate for skilled and educated immigrants to keep our economy humming and to use their connections with their homelands to help this country forge stronger trade links with the rest of the world.
We could hardly attract them if we insisted they break the bonds with the countries from which they came or if we offered them a form of second-class citizenship that left them to fend for themselves if they were to run into the kind of trouble Canadians in Lebanon now face.
EDITORIAL: Dual citizens all equally Canadian
Jul. 21, 2006. 08:46 AM
Of the 50,000 Canadians who have found themselves caught in the middle of the brutal conflict raging in Lebanon between Israeli and Hezbollah, many are mothers who no doubt love all their children equally.
So why is it that some Canadians in all parts of this country are asking whether these same mothers — or their husbands, children or uncles and aunts — can be loyal to two countries at the same time?
The question of dual citizenship has become a hot issue since Ottawa announced it would evacuate all Canadian citizens who want to leave Lebanon and bring them home at taxpayers' expense.
To start, many people were surprised to learn 50,000 Canadians were in Lebanon when Israel launched attacks after Hezbollah militants captured two Israeli soldiers and killed seven others. Many Canadians there at the time were tourists; most of the rest lived year-round in Lebanon.
Why, the critics ask, does Canada allow people to hold Canadian citizenship when they have chosen to live in another country? What obligation does the Canadian government have to spend millions of dollars to rescue people who may carry a Canadian passport strictly as a matter of convenience? And why does Canada even grant citizenship to people who are citizens of some other country?
The federal government answered the last question back in 1977 when it updated the Citizenship Act to allow Canadians "to have two or more citizenships and allegiances at the same time." The 1977 act made Canada one of the first of countries to permit dual citizenship. Today, about half of the world's nations allow their citizens to be a citizen of another country.
When the act was approved, Ottawa recognized that a country heavily dependent on immigration for its growth could not expect immigrants to leave their previous lives completely behind when they came here. Dual citizenship was an acknowledgement that people have multiple connections in a rapidly shrinking world — to family, to identity, history and culture — that cannot nor should not be denied.
Today, there are roughly 600,000 naturalized Canadians who maintain dual citizenship. Clearly some of them use — and occasionally abuse — their Canadian citizenship as an "insurance policy" in times of trouble or as a "passport of convenience" when they travel and work abroad. But the majority are decent, hardworking Canadians with ties to both their adopted country of Canada and to their homeland. Did the French passport that Governor General Michaëlle Jean possessed until last year really make her less of a Canadian? Is Queen Elizabeth any less British — or any less Canadian — for being a citizen of 17 different countries?
As far as the government and the law are concerned, a Canadian is a Canadian. That is why Ottawa has a moral obligation to rescue any Canadian in Lebanon who wants out — regardless of whether they went to Lebanon to care for a sick parent, to earn a living or to live out their retirement.
Canada is desperate for skilled and educated immigrants to keep our economy humming and to use their connections with their homelands to help this country forge stronger trade links with the rest of the world.
We could hardly attract them if we insisted they break the bonds with the countries from which they came or if we offered them a form of second-class citizenship that left them to fend for themselves if they were to run into the kind of trouble Canadians in Lebanon now face.
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Interesting line:
"Canada is desperate for skilled and educated immigrants to keep our economy humming and to use their connections with their homelands to help this country forge stronger trade links with the rest of the world."
Sure we are desperate for skilled and educated immigrants to keep our economy going etc., but I am sure that we are interested in them actually living in Canada, not their native land. Kinda looks more like they are not really becoming Canadians to me, so why should they receive all the benefits? If they are paying their taxes to a foreign government and not to the Canadian government, taking advantage of Canadian Medicare, EI, Welfare, and other Canadian 'Social Programs' while living in a foreign land for twenty or more years, I would call them more of a drain than an asset on our Society.
I would expect them to come and actually live in Canada to take advantage of our 'benefits'. I have nothing against 'Family connections' in foreign lands, but I do have a problem with prolonged, or even worse, permanent Residency in their native lands.
"Canada is desperate for skilled and educated immigrants to keep our economy humming and to use their connections with their homelands to help this country forge stronger trade links with the rest of the world."
Sure we are desperate for skilled and educated immigrants to keep our economy going etc., but I am sure that we are interested in them actually living in Canada, not their native land. Kinda looks more like they are not really becoming Canadians to me, so why should they receive all the benefits? If they are paying their taxes to a foreign government and not to the Canadian government, taking advantage of Canadian Medicare, EI, Welfare, and other Canadian 'Social Programs' while living in a foreign land for twenty or more years, I would call them more of a drain than an asset on our Society.
I would expect them to come and actually live in Canada to take advantage of our 'benefits'. I have nothing against 'Family connections' in foreign lands, but I do have a problem with prolonged, or even worse, permanent Residency in their native lands.
I wonder how many Lebonese are actually in their own country...30-50 thousand Canadians, Thousands of Americans, Australians, etc, etc,, and now this:
30,000 Filipinos stranded in Lebanon
Web posted at: 7/21/2006 11:46:36 Source ::: AFP MANILA •
http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World%5FNews&subsection=Philippines+%26+South+Asia&month=July2006&file=World_News20060721114636.xml
The Philippine president yesterday appealed for Israel and Hezbollah to avoid harming some 30,000 Filipinos stranded in Lebanon, and urged the international community to help evacuate her citizens.
Facing criticism for failing to do enough to help Filipinos stuck in the war zone, many of whom are female domestic workers, Gloria Arroyo insisted her government was doing everything it could.
"The Philippines makes a special appeal to all combatant forces to spare Filipino nationals who have no wish other than to be taken out of harm's way," she said in a statement.
"In the name of humanity, I ask the combatants not to harm them," she said, while appealing for other countries to "help us in the evacuation process."
More on Link
30,000 Filipinos stranded in Lebanon
Web posted at: 7/21/2006 11:46:36 Source ::: AFP MANILA •
http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World%5FNews&subsection=Philippines+%26+South+Asia&month=July2006&file=World_News20060721114636.xml
The Philippine president yesterday appealed for Israel and Hezbollah to avoid harming some 30,000 Filipinos stranded in Lebanon, and urged the international community to help evacuate her citizens.
Facing criticism for failing to do enough to help Filipinos stuck in the war zone, many of whom are female domestic workers, Gloria Arroyo insisted her government was doing everything it could.
"The Philippines makes a special appeal to all combatant forces to spare Filipino nationals who have no wish other than to be taken out of harm's way," she said in a statement.
"In the name of humanity, I ask the combatants not to harm them," she said, while appealing for other countries to "help us in the evacuation process."
More on Link
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Wow, 50,000 Canadians in Lebanon. That is like 1.5 out of every 1,000 Canadians is in Lebanon. Lebanon!
I would expect them to come and actually live in Canada to take advantage of our 'benefits'. I have nothing against 'Family connections' in foreign lands, but I do have a problem with prolonged, or even worse, permanent Residency in their native lands.
+1
Although, I dislike restrictions etc. There should be a post-citizenship residency requirement. You want to be a Canadian citizen, well you have to remain a resident for X number of years to completely fullfil your end of the bargain. No more, just became a citizen to get my family over to Canada as kind of a safe haven in case of emergencies in my 'preferred land' sort of thing. Not probably a PC kind of idea, freedom restrictions etc., but do we have to be a country of convenience?
I would expect them to come and actually live in Canada to take advantage of our 'benefits'. I have nothing against 'Family connections' in foreign lands, but I do have a problem with prolonged, or even worse, permanent Residency in their native lands.
+1
Although, I dislike restrictions etc. There should be a post-citizenship residency requirement. You want to be a Canadian citizen, well you have to remain a resident for X number of years to completely fullfil your end of the bargain. No more, just became a citizen to get my family over to Canada as kind of a safe haven in case of emergencies in my 'preferred land' sort of thing. Not probably a PC kind of idea, freedom restrictions etc., but do we have to be a country of convenience?
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Wesley 'Down Under' said:
Couldn't agree with it more either.
But does raise a few questions:
1. What the hell is so attractive about Lebanon, that all these foreign Nationals are there ?.
2. If this is the place they want to spend the rest of theirs lives in and its so great, why the hell didn't they stay there in the first place ?.
3. When is Canada going to realize its be suckered ?.
We need immigrants, Oh Yeah !: During visit of Queen, Sister In law met RN type off the Britania, fell in love, it sailed, she followed him to UK, married there, transferred off for base posting to be with now pregnant wife. She found UK hard to adjust to after North American Standards. So he decided to Migrate to Canada: He 19 yrs RN 9 aboard the Britania, we had to post a $20,000 bond, guarantee a residence and employment and two and a bit years later he was issued a visa. Five years later, Citizenship and he had to give up his British Passport. To this day, its the best move he says he has ever made and wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
Today all you have to do, is flush your passport down the toilet, we sure have a great system.
Maybe we are looking in all the wrong places. Correct me if I'm wrong, there are quite stringent quota's and restrictions for EU and Mediterranean Countries.
My apologies "Wes" for tail ending your post.
Cheers.
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FastEddy said:
None needed mate
Today in Sydney over 15,000 Leb 'Aussies' marched in protest to the war in Lebanon. Many placcards read "John, save our country". I honestly thought as citizens of Australia was their country.
Yip, we too have been hoodwinked, now the gov't is flying every single Leb out of the region, and you guessed it, the taxpayer is copping the bill! Wanna know more, try www.news.com.au
So at the end of the day, are they Australians or Lebanese living in Australia. Get your priorities right folks.
We're on to your rort!
Wes
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http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2006/07/21/1695081.html
Fri, July 21, 2006
CONVENIENT CANADIANS
By Peter Worthington
What in heaven's name are 50,000 Canadians doing in Lebanon?
Surely they can't all be there for a wedding, or a family reunion, or an academic conference, or even as tourists?
The estimated 50,000 are roughly 20% of all the Lebanese who have become Canadian citizens -- about 250,000 of 'em.
Put another way, there are twice as many Canadians in Lebanon as there are Canadians in the army.
Are they all in Lebanon for a visit? Hardly.
Most are dual-citizenship Canadians who've chosen to return to the motherland to live as Lebanese -- until trouble strikes and then they want the Canadian government to rescue them, not the Lebanese government.
Under terms of Canada's dual citizenship policy, the country in which people choose to live, or to visit, takes precedence over Canadian law -- which isn't to say we, as a country, shouldn't help people in trouble.
Frankly, any dual-citizenship Canadian who chooses to live in one of the danger areas of the world should not expect Canada to rush to his aid and rescue him and relatives when danger threatens.
Instead, appeal to the government you prefer to live under, rather than the Canadian one.
Now Canada is chartering seven ships and a bunch of aircraft to rescue these citizens, many of whom have chosen not to live in Canada. Does Canada have an obligation to be responsible for them? The cost to taxpayers of removing tens of thousands from Lebanon is enormous.
How many, one wonders, of these people will move back to Lebanon when the crisis is over and security is restored -- assuming it ever will be in Lebanon?
The view that "a Canadian is a Canadian" and all should be treated equally may need revising.
Why should the government be responsible for naturalized citizens who return to live in a dangerous country in which they are also citizens?
Tourists or short-term visitors are in a different category.
Some MPs have suggested Canadians in Lebanon whose principal country of residence is Canada, should be rescued first, since those whose primary home is Lebanon are better able to survive than visitors.
Although Lebanese have settled in Canada for well over a century and are productive citizens, Canada's current policies risk clogging the country with people who shouldn't be here and whom we don't want.
Already, we won't deport terrorist suspects or criminals if there's fear they may be executed or tortured in their birth country. This means virtually no bad guy can be deported to the Middle East.
Canadians of Syrian or Iranian descent should avoid visiting Damascus or Tehran where they're in danger of being grabbed on phony charges -- which in no way is to suggest that the Lebanese Canadians being evacuated have done anything illegal.
We already have a self-described al-Qaida family in Canada, with one member charged with murdering an American soldier in Afghanistan. Many feel this family doesn't deserve to be Canadian, since their allegiance is to an enemy of Canada.
Canada accepts that dual citizens have special rights. But the policy needs fine-tuning. It can be argued -- as some countries do -- that allegiance should be to one country, not two or three.
If someone wants to be a Canadian, that person should give up citizenship in his birth country.
An exception should be made with the U.S. on grounds that we are geographically, traditionally and culturally close.
But for other immigrants, the choice should be one citizenship and one passport.
It's too late now for Lebanon, where 50,000 Canadians outnumber Americans by a two-to-one ratio.
Ludicrous. Change the law before the next crisis!
Fri, July 21, 2006
CONVENIENT CANADIANS
By Peter Worthington
What in heaven's name are 50,000 Canadians doing in Lebanon?
Surely they can't all be there for a wedding, or a family reunion, or an academic conference, or even as tourists?
The estimated 50,000 are roughly 20% of all the Lebanese who have become Canadian citizens -- about 250,000 of 'em.
Put another way, there are twice as many Canadians in Lebanon as there are Canadians in the army.
Are they all in Lebanon for a visit? Hardly.
Most are dual-citizenship Canadians who've chosen to return to the motherland to live as Lebanese -- until trouble strikes and then they want the Canadian government to rescue them, not the Lebanese government.
Under terms of Canada's dual citizenship policy, the country in which people choose to live, or to visit, takes precedence over Canadian law -- which isn't to say we, as a country, shouldn't help people in trouble.
Frankly, any dual-citizenship Canadian who chooses to live in one of the danger areas of the world should not expect Canada to rush to his aid and rescue him and relatives when danger threatens.
Instead, appeal to the government you prefer to live under, rather than the Canadian one.
Now Canada is chartering seven ships and a bunch of aircraft to rescue these citizens, many of whom have chosen not to live in Canada. Does Canada have an obligation to be responsible for them? The cost to taxpayers of removing tens of thousands from Lebanon is enormous.
How many, one wonders, of these people will move back to Lebanon when the crisis is over and security is restored -- assuming it ever will be in Lebanon?
The view that "a Canadian is a Canadian" and all should be treated equally may need revising.
Why should the government be responsible for naturalized citizens who return to live in a dangerous country in which they are also citizens?
Tourists or short-term visitors are in a different category.
Some MPs have suggested Canadians in Lebanon whose principal country of residence is Canada, should be rescued first, since those whose primary home is Lebanon are better able to survive than visitors.
Although Lebanese have settled in Canada for well over a century and are productive citizens, Canada's current policies risk clogging the country with people who shouldn't be here and whom we don't want.
Already, we won't deport terrorist suspects or criminals if there's fear they may be executed or tortured in their birth country. This means virtually no bad guy can be deported to the Middle East.
Canadians of Syrian or Iranian descent should avoid visiting Damascus or Tehran where they're in danger of being grabbed on phony charges -- which in no way is to suggest that the Lebanese Canadians being evacuated have done anything illegal.
We already have a self-described al-Qaida family in Canada, with one member charged with murdering an American soldier in Afghanistan. Many feel this family doesn't deserve to be Canadian, since their allegiance is to an enemy of Canada.
Canada accepts that dual citizens have special rights. But the policy needs fine-tuning. It can be argued -- as some countries do -- that allegiance should be to one country, not two or three.
If someone wants to be a Canadian, that person should give up citizenship in his birth country.
An exception should be made with the U.S. on grounds that we are geographically, traditionally and culturally close.
But for other immigrants, the choice should be one citizenship and one passport.
It's too late now for Lebanon, where 50,000 Canadians outnumber Americans by a two-to-one ratio.
Ludicrous. Change the law before the next crisis!
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Had to laugh watching the footage of the evacuees last night. when one woman got off the boat she said the toilets were disgusting on the boat (or non-existant I can't remember which). She said if she'd known that before they sailed she would have stayed and faced the bombs in Lebanon.
Is it my imagination or is all of this just getting a bit farcical? For lack of a place to go and take a dump you'd stay and risk death? Wow! :
Is it my imagination or is all of this just getting a bit farcical? For lack of a place to go and take a dump you'd stay and risk death? Wow! :
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Hate to be the spoiler, here, but to those suggesting immigrants have to "earn" citizenship here, one question:
What about all the people BORN HERE that haven't shown merit enough for the rights of (or have been negligent in carrying out the responsibilities of) true citizenship? How do you tell a law-abiding, just want a better life person coming from offshore wanting to contribute when they see some people born here who, in some eyes, may not be worthy of citizenship?
Then again, maybe a "draft pick trade" - keener, come on in; weiner, out you go?
What about all the people BORN HERE that haven't shown merit enough for the rights of (or have been negligent in carrying out the responsibilities of) true citizenship? How do you tell a law-abiding, just want a better life person coming from offshore wanting to contribute when they see some people born here who, in some eyes, may not be worthy of citizenship?
Then again, maybe a "draft pick trade" - keener, come on in; weiner, out you go?
milnewstbay said:Hate to be the spoiler, here, but to those suggesting immigrants have to "earn" citizenship here, one question:
What about all the people BORN HERE that haven't shown merit enough for the rights of (or have been negligent in carrying out the responsibilities of) true citizenship? How do you tell a law-abiding, just want a better life person coming from offshore wanting to contribute when they see some people born here who, in some eyes, may not be worthy of citizenship?
Then again, maybe a "draft pick trade" - keener, come on in; whiner, out you go?
What about approaching the problem the way they do with the snowbirds? first your free mediacal coverage is suspended, then, unless you are someplace because a Canadian Company posted you there for employment purposes, your priority drops down compared to say, a vacationer. This is all premised on the fact the Canadian Embassy knows you are in the particular country at all. A large part of the Canadian-Lebanese demanding to come home, the embassy did not know about.
my 2 cents
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I found something that would pertain to this
: http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=hamilton/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1153518611512&call_pageid=1020420665036&col=1112101662670 (rest of article on page)
"Lama Ghandour, a 38-year-old mother of three from Ottawa, has not been back in Canada in 10 years and did not want to leave, but was doing so for the sake of her children"
In my view i don't think she should be allowed to go on the Canadian ships or if she did she should be at the end of the line. Does anyone think that 10 years would mean that your being a citizen of Canada would be expired. This is a prime example pf people who keep there Canadian passport as a matter of convenience.
: http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=hamilton/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1153518611512&call_pageid=1020420665036&col=1112101662670 (rest of article on page)
"Lama Ghandour, a 38-year-old mother of three from Ottawa, has not been back in Canada in 10 years and did not want to leave, but was doing so for the sake of her children"
In my view i don't think she should be allowed to go on the Canadian ships or if she did she should be at the end of the line. Does anyone think that 10 years would mean that your being a citizen of Canada would be expired. This is a prime example pf people who keep there Canadian passport as a matter of convenience.
nowhere_man said:
Is this the woman mentioned in the earlier part of this thread, whose husband works for the UN in Lebanon? If it is, her sentiments might be really heartfelt. But, if it someone who has moved back and keeps the passport as a "get out of jail" card, you would be correct in wanting her at the end of the line.
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I didn't see anything in the article about her husband working for the UN but if he was that is the longest posting I've ever heard of.
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