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The Destruction of Anglo-Saxon Civilization?

  • Thread starter MAJOR_Baker
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MAJOR_Baker

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Meanwhile, MEMRI reports a statement by an Iranian official in Tehran that his organization is mapping 29 sensitive sites in America as a list of targets.

This same official has publicly stated: "We have a strategy drawn up for the destruction of Anglo-Saxon civilization."

I was wondering if this could be true?   I have read a lot of stuff as of late from "fundamentalist" websites that say their goal is to destroy western civilization (from subversion within-through legal and illegal immigration) and through attacks on the US.   Could this be true and are we asleep at the wheel?   Now, I don't want to start a flame war, but could something like this actually be happening or is it just bombastic talk?  

 
"We have a strategy drawn up for the destruction of Anglo-Saxon civilization."
That would also mean Europe would be targeted also? This is not looking up...
 
Just to be clear,

In Europe the "progressive" side of society defines the "right wing" libertarian free-market agenda as the "Anglo-Saxon" agenda.

It is considered the opposition to "Old Europe".

Putting names to it, it means the US/Britain vs France/Germany in the EU context with the smaller nations choosing up sides. Generally the old Warsaw Pact countries are lining up on "Anglo-Saxon" side while the long-standing members of the EU are wobbling between the "Anglo-Saxon" agenda and the "Old Europe" agenda, depending on how "progessive" or "reactionary" the government of the day is.

For example

Belgium and Luxembourg - generally "Old Europe"
Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Holland - generally "Anglo-Saxon"
Portugal and Italy - currently "Anglo-Saxon"  but subject to change
Spain - was "Anglo-Saxon" but is now more "Old Europe" since the socialists got in
Greece - was "Old Europe" but unclear now since their last election.

You get the drift.

It is probably this divide that the folks posting that quote are addressing. 

We know where Australia stands in the scale of things.  Currently having difficulty assessing Canada's position. :-\ :-[

China, Russia are outliers at this time.

Iran seems to be internally split.










 
By the way it seems to have been the French Press or perhaps it was Chirac/de Villepin that have coined this usage.

It is the way the discussions were framed during the recent disputes over the new EU constitution.

Any takers on how long that talking-shop will last?


 
Gents

To be honest, it sounds more like hardliner Muslin fundamentalist dogma that Sherwood was trying to address...Unless I really missed something along the way there?

Scarey stuff either way!

Slim :cdn:
 
I think you are right Slim and Sherwood was referring to the hardliners ideology.

I was pointing out that the term "Anglo-Saxon" civilization represents a narrowing of focus.  Up until now most references of which I am aware, both from the US and Bin Laden et al have tended to use the expression "Western" civilization.

"Anglo-Saxon" has a very particular meaning in current European political discourse.  It is used to refer in general to a Thatcherite-Reagan view of society, economics and world view.  These days it also refers specifically to the "Bush-Blair Agenda".  It is used that way by the left wing in all European countries, including Britain.

I just found it interesting that the hardliners should now start referring to the enemy as "Anglo-Saxons".  Especially in light of the fact that since before the crusades, since the Battle of Poitiers in 732,  and up until some of Bin Ladens recent "press releases" the "West" has been synonymous with the "Franks" or the original bunch of Germans that came to dominate the area now known as France.

The change of terminology is interesting.

It could just reflect the fundamentalists clueing into the way that the Europeans use the term and is considered interchangeable in their minds with "West" and "Franks".  On the other hand it could also be an attempt to "divide and conquer" by appealing to Europeans by telling them the fight is not with them but only "Bush and Blair, those nasty Anglo-Saxons". 

Either way Chirac's position seems to be that all of the world's problems are a result of those "unenlightened Anglo-Saxons" and the only thing I can't make my mind up about is whether he sees himself as a neutral in the "clash of civilizations" or whether he has taken up sides.

As to the Iranian position being that of the hardliners, that gives limited comfort.  While the moderates seem to be trying to work with the US and Britain and their friends, arranging the release of the Brit Marines and Sailors recently and intervening with Al-Sadr, it is the hardliners that captured those Brits and paraded them blindfolded.  It is the hardliners that sent a couple of self-confessed intelligence officers into Iraq where they were captured recently by the Iraqis with explosives in their possession.  It is the hardliners that control the Revolutionary Guard that put down the student protests against the wishes of the government and Majlis, and it is the hardliners that have the keys to nuclear sites that they won't let the IAEA see.

While, just as I may be "starting at shadows" the hardliners may be "dreaming in techni-colour" about their capabilities.  However just because they have a faulty appraisal of their capabilities that doesn't preclude them having a plan, which would demonstrate their intentions.

In any event, as you say Slim, scary stuff either way.

The world isn't getting any simpler. ???


 
This is what I was referring to above

Tuesday, July 06, 2004

STORIES  BACKGROUND
"¢U.S. Seeks U.N. Response to Iran Nuke Plan"¢Iran Vows to Resume Building Centrifuges"¢Wolfowitz Puzzled by Chalabi Actions"¢Kennedy Speech Focuses on Nuke Threat"¢Powell Hints at Sanctions for Iran"¢Libya to Cut Trade With Terror Nations"¢Bush Renews Criticism of Iran

WASHINGTON - American and Iraqi joint patrols, along with U.S. Special Operations (search) teams, captured two men with explosives in Baghdad on Monday who identified themselves as Iranian (search) intelligence officers, FOX News has confirmed.

Senior officials said it was previously believed that Iran had officers inside Iraq stirring up violence, but this is the first time that self-proclaimed Iranian intelligence agents have been captured within the country.

The Defense officials also confirmed to FOX News that in recent days there has been significant success in tracking down "known bad guys" based on information from local citizens. While those captured aren't from the list of former regime members or from terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's (search) network, they are "active" bombers and organizers of recent violence.

The arrest of  the two Iranians suspected of attempting to carry out a vehicle bombing has focused new attention on how Tehran is trying to protect its interests in the country it fought for eight years in a devastating war.

So far, Iran is believed to have used money, not guns, to influence Iraq - particularly by spreading wealth among Shiite political factions - while avoiding a direct confrontation with its longtime rival the United States.
 
Not that it isn't scary to hear someone say that and quite frankly I wouldn't doubt that there is no shortage of Iranians in official government circles who spout this off, so I don't question it's legitemacy at all.

I have issue with the way MEMRI (Middle East Media Research Institute) displays the information that it translates as being THE definitive source of news for people in the middle east.

The best example I can come up with is, the average Russian during the Soviet Era, did NOT find his news from PRAVDA or any state-run television. That's not to say they didn't watch and read these sources, it just means that they didn't find their "average Russian" news in these. The only news that MEMRi translates is official state-run news.

You have to ask yourself when you take anything that MEMRI prints at face value, would you have picked up a Soviet newspaper, would you pick up a copy of GRANMA, would you pick up a copy of the People's Republic News and assume that it is the most accurate depiction of reality????

So I don't question the legitimacy of this source, and I don't question whether or not it was said. I just ask that before we take this as definitive proof that the end of the world is around the corner, people consider this.
 
No, not an "accurate depiction of reality" Che, but just like Pravda, TASS, Granma and PRN a combination of the truth, what the people that pay their salaries want to believe is the truth and what they want others to believe.

In short an effort to influence the external debate.

I don't believe that "the end of the world is nigh".   The world has gone through this many times before as have we as a species. It happens with regularity.

Every now and then the pieces are rearranged.

One of our more desirable traits is to try to find ways to talk ourselves out of problems.   To get people around a table and hash out those things that cause conflict.   However two problems invariably arise: who gets to sit around the table and who do they represent, and the problems of reaching a decision when more than two people meet at that table.

Think Meech Lake and Charlottetown Accord and the rise of the Bloc and the Reform parties, not to mention Native activism.   Think of the loss of Polish sovereignty because their parliament couldn't reach a decision because every landowner in the parliament demanded a veto.   Think of any planning meeting you have ever attended where the department was invited to sit around the table and decide what the programme for the next year was going to be.   I have attended a number where we spent half the day just trying to define a "vision".

The instincts to avoid physical conflict are not new to this generation.   They are well entrenched and have much precedence.   Unfortunately despite those instincts conflict often progresses from the verbal to the physical.

While I don't foresee a general conflagration, and I hope I am right, I do see a world in which a number of players have divergent interests and common interests.   And some of those players' interests have more in common with each other than they have with us.   And that is concerning.

I do think that we can be in for a very long period of instability, much like the Cold War or the Hundred Years War or the 30 Years War or the Era of the Warring States in China or... I could give a depressingly long list, including the 200 year Franco-English struggle for empire.   These struggles were characterised by long periods of quiet, either with or without truces, interspersed with occasional violent outbursts. And as much as conspiracy theories are derided there was central planning involved in all of these conflicts.   Alliances may have been formed and reformed but each participant in the conflict had a longterm goal.

The Cold War is often described as the war won without a shot being fired.   Tell that to the millions, tens of millions that died between 1945 and 1990.   Find a period when somebody that self-identified with one side or the other wasn't killing somebody else.   Famously, during this period of "peace and stability", and perhaps apocryphally, there was only one day when the British Army did not hear a shot fired in anger.   And many other armies were in the same boat.

As I said earlier, I don't expect the end of the world, but this is a time when the pieces are realigning and governments that we used to be able to rely on because we had some common interests are finding that their interests are now elsewhere.   And in common with people that used to be threats.

Also in some instances it is not so much that the threat has gone, it is that the threat has morphed.   Russia is a case in point.

Russia used a multi-prong approach to try and destabilize and bring down the "West", America in particular. Tie up resources through fomenting "proxy" wars, remove national support through propaganda and covert direct action and Tanks, Tanks, Tanks, in the immortal words of Slim.

The military command in Russia saw the first two exercises as setting the ground for the main event which was the required, desireable and inevitable conflict which would see the Tanks roll over the Inter-German Border and then "Tomorrow, the World".

I believe that a number of things have changed now that suggest that only some folks in the Pentagon, and an increasingly small number, see the future conflict in those terms.

I believe that a number of people have come to the conclusion that it is not how many battles you win that gives you victory, but how many battles you avoid.   This has been a longstanding view of the Chinese military, it is the view that drove Britsh diplomacy and "The Great Game", it may be what Chirac is referring to with Sherwood's tag line of "I believe war is always represents failure" (sorry if I mangled the quote Sherwood).  

It would also be in line with Vladimir Putin's training and observations.   As noted by many Putin was trained in disinformation and propaganda and saw first hand the value of friendship societies and the influence they could exert.   He had a ringside seat to the Greenham Common Cruise Missile and Pershing Missile deployment demonstrations.   Anybody remember the Cruise Missile test demonstrations here?

I believe it is a safe bet that Putin believed that the Tanks and Afghanistan were a waste of resources.   That the small scale, under the radar type of actions typified by the KGB were the potential War Winners.   Now that they don't have the resources for either Tanks or foreign adventures, those KGB tactics are the only ones available to him. Thus he has the opportunity to resort to tactics he is likely to believe in and little opposition from the traditionalists because they can't afford to do it their way.   And he has an entrenched base of supporters and "fellow-travellers" who see the world in the same terms as they did when they were demonstrating against those missiles.

Admittedly this all presupposes that Vladimir isn't a nice guy who really has the best interests of the West at heart rather than those of Mother Russia.

And it could be that Bin Laden, and China and Britain and France and Holland don't have vested interests whose corner they are fighting.

I am prepared to be accused of being a conspiracy theorist.   But the way I see it, the world is a very unstable place right now, predicting the future is a mug's game.   The world may turn out to be on the cusp of the second coming.   But I don't think we should be counting on it.

Do you know why revolutions occur?  Because everybody agrees the people in charge are screwing up.

Do you know why revolutions fail? Because nobody can agree what to do next.





 
Well said, I honestly wasn't trying to start a debate.

I just find that people are sometimes more willing to take things at face value when it comes to Arab media and are more willing to say "well that's only one side" when it comes to CNN or Fox News.
 
Sorry about that comment about the Pentagon, that was an unnecessary dig.  The attitude I described most likely exists within all military establishments.

The Pentagon is likely to be further ahead in its thinking than most.

I guess even I have to guard myself against a latent anti-americanism.  Its been there most of my life having been raised a Brit.  There was always and underlying tendency not to thank the "rescuer" but a combination of resentment that we had to be rescued and especially by this bunch of upstarts that didn't know how to do the job as well as us and didn't do it as well.  (That may be instructive when viewing both Jacques Chirac and the current situation in Iraq.)

Well it is time for this Brit to say that, despite the pride I have in being British, and thus vicariously associating with the many great things the Brits have done for the world, and for Canada, this world would not be the place it is if it weren't for the Americans.  And for that I thank them.  I may not agree with everything they espouse and all of the things they do, just as I am aware of the many failings of Britain over the centuries.  But on balance this Brit, this Scot, is happy to associate with the "Anglo-Saxons".

Rant Ends, Shot over...
 
Che

Thanks for the comment, not a personal thing just some issues these days to seem to me to be getting the attention the deserve in the "popular" press and every now and then my frustration gets the better of me.

Cheers.
 
Oh jesus...

Do you think people in the Mideast are trembling in fear when some inbred fatass from Alabama says "We have plans drawn up to create a white supremist chrstian state in the mideast, and will succeed in destroying their inferior society"? You can bet that the muslim radicals will cite examples such as the KKK to justify how brutal and radical all westerners are and get support from all the naive members of the public to support their jihad. Westerners who tremble in fear every time Johhny Taliban opens his mouth, and believe what he says to be the voice of all brown people are just as bad.

Stop trying to find reasons to hate people different from yourselves. The world is not going to end anytime soon unless you let the ignorant people on both sides run the show. As long as one side has level headed people, then the world will not be destroyed. No one is trying to take over our society, and indeed if you think for yourself, no one could take over our society unless they had the complete support of our governments and lots of support from the people. Just as we could not completely take over their society without support from their governments and people.

So unless westerners get brainwashed into thinking that the evil brown people are always going to try to kill them, and easterners get brainwashed into thinking the evil white people are going to destroy them, no one will attack anyone, and everyone will just go about their happy lives in their corners of the planet. There will be radicals on each side, but they will be such small groupings that they will have no opportunity to inflict any damage upon what they think is their "enemy" unless their "enemy" government lets them attack, for their own purposes of furthering their ignorant beliefs that they were sent to destory and crusade against everyone different from themselves...And I don't think the Persian government is going to let a bunch of KKK members attack their country so they can start a war with the US that they would end up loosing.
 
Could this be true and are we asleep at the wheel?


Lets ask the CIA.
 
When was the last time a bunch of bumbling inbreeds from Alabama killed 3000 people in a morning? Or drove a boatload of explosives into the side of a destroyer? Or bombed an African embassy? Or pushed an invalid in a wheelchair over the side of a cruise ship?

Now, before you get you FTLs in a knot, nbk - I must say that in essence, I agree with you (shudder). That being said, the people that were are talking about have demonstrated their willingness to act upon their crazy plans - more than once. I think that's what gives this more credibility - not hate.....
 
Could this be true?

Short answer - who the heck knows. 

Anybody taking bets? ;)

Cheers, from your friendly neighbourhood raving loonie.
 
muskrat89 said:
When was the last time a bunch of bumbling inbreeds from Alabama killed 3000 people in a morning? Or drove a boatload of explosives into the side of a destroyer? Or bombed an African embassy? Or pushed an invalid in a wheelchair over the side of a cruise ship?

The governments of the countries that would get attacked by white supremists have no reason to allow an attack to happen, they would not benefit from it at all. As well, extremists living in america can live comfortably, whereas extremists living in the third world do not live comfortably, and are more likely to have a "what have I got to loose" mentality. Reverse the situation, Bubba living in a cave eating scorpion meat and having access to weapons and like minded individuals, and Ali Baba living in a trailer park eating chicken fingers and drinking beer, with his biggest concern being keeping his cousin's hands off his sister, and see who wants to attack the people that he thinks are keeping him down.

Now, before you get you FTLs in a knot, nbk - I must say that in essence, I agree with you (shudder). That being said, the people that were are talking about have demonstrated their willingness to act upon their crazy plans - more than once. I think that's what gives this more credibility - not hate.....

Aww I love you too sweetpea.  :-*
 
Bin Laden is poor? I also recall that some of the 9/11 terrorists also came from wealthy families. The poor and oppressed thing only works so much....


Anyway, to reiterate my point (which I'm not sure you got) - for whatever reasons, Islamic extremeists have demonstrated their willingness to act, as opposed to (Timothy McVeigh an exception) the white supremicists/anti-govt/black panthers, and whatever othe homegrown groups we have running around here.

Glad to see you love me
 
So unless westerners get brainwashed into thinking that the evil brown people are always going to try to kill them, and easterners get brainwashed into thinking the evil white people are going to destroy them, no one will attack anyone, and everyone will just go about their happy lives in their corners of the planet. There will be radicals on each side, but they will be such small groupings that they will have no opportunity to inflict any damage upon what they think is their "enemy" unless their "enemy" government lets them attack, for their own purposes of furthering their ignorant beliefs that they were sent to destroy and crusade against everyone different from themselves

I understand what you're trying to say, however the "perfect world" we all dream about will never happen and we must deal with the realities of what is...Not what we wish it could be.

And terrorists almost always come from rich or wealthy families...Poor people are too busy just trying to survive to start revolts and terrorize people.

Slim :cdn:
 
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