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The 2008 Canadian Election- Merged Thread

Does anyone have a link on what the Green Shift will cost me and my family. I was on the Liberal site and their calculator said I would be getting 1000 bucks back at the end of the year, but I don't know if I am in the Red or the Black.

Cheers
 
Any simple ‘calculator’ is going to lie to you.

Your tax breaks will, of course, depend on the tax bracket you are in. You also may benefit more or less than your neighbours from any new or upgraded social programmes. Additionally, Dion promises to do away with the $1,200.00 child care benefit - you may or may not get or want that.

The Green Shaft Shift is just another GST – a consumption tax. I like that part of it, it’s a good thing. I much prefer consumption taxes to income taxes – the latter are taxes on savings and investments and jobs.

I also like that Dion promises income tax breaks – for the reasons I stated above; another good thing.

Increased social spending is a very bad idea. It is not that we should not have social programmes, the problem is that we have too many overlapping programmes now. We can do more - if not with less at least without any new money.

I would approve of the Green Shaft Shift IF Dion applied the carbon tax all across the board - especially at the gas pumps and on home heating oil - and made it honestly revenue neutral by cutting income taxes by the amount collected through the carbon tax in each previous year. But he's not planning to do that; thus it is a bad plan, even if it does give you and other Canadians some tax breaks.
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s National Post, is a long but important article on the real issues n this election:

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=788042
Falling Behind
Why Canada is fading on the global economic scene and what policymakers should be doing about it

Paul Vieira, Financial Post

Published: Saturday, September 13, 2008

As Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Conservative Party lieutenants criss-cross the country ahead of the Oct. 14 election, one key message they have delivered is how, under their leadership, Canada is better positioned than most to weather the economic slowdown. They argued that despite doom-and-gloom reports from the likes of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the country's fundamentals remain rock solid.

At first glance, it is hard to argue with the Conservatives, given the near-record low unemployment, stable inflation, budget surpluses and solvent provinces.

But drill beneath the surface and a different picture emerges -- of a Canada not up to snuff with the rest of the industrialized world and the fast-growing emerging markets.

Whether it is taxes, lack of trade strategy, crumbling infrastructure or difficulty in drawing foreign investment, business leaders and economists say Canada faces multiple challenges that put us at a disadvantage compared with the rest of the world.

"I think we all have a sense of unease that we are not doing that well," says Jock Finlayson, executive vice-president of the Business Council of British Columbia.

In the global race for investment, Canada may be running at world-class speed, but the pace is not nearly fast enough, warns Anne Golden, president of the Conference Board of Canada, an Ottawa think-tank that has for two years in a row issued critical report cards on Canadian performance on the world scene.

"The fact is, other countries are doing better," she adds. And yesterday, for the first time, Mr. Harper acknowledged in a campaign stop in Halifax that Canada's economic foundation is on shaky ground. "Without increased competitiveness, Canada risks falling behind in the global economy and jeopardizing the gains we have made in the past few years," said a Conservative Party statement that accompanied details of yesterday's pledge to loosen foreign-ownership rules in uranium mining and airlines if Mr. Harper is re-elected prime minister.

With the election campaign officially underway, the Financial Post examines key government policies that are holding Canada back in the global race for investment and talent.

--------------------
Productivity: Canada 'sucks'

-1.4% - The decline in Canada's productivity over the past year

+3.2% - The increase in the United States' productivity over the past year

--------------------

The final report of the Competition Policy Review Panel, released in June, was a rude awakening for the federal government about Canada's place in the world. One of the report's main messages was that Ottawa and the business community cannot stand still and live by the same rules that have governed the country's investment and business in past decades.

"We cannot be content with simply being in the Top 10 or Top 20 among our international competitors," the report's authors wrote. "Globalization and the accelerating pace of change will continue whether or not we step forward to address these fundamental transformations. … If we want to control our destiny, we must acknowledge these issues and deal with them."

The report's authors drew a link between new policies that spur increased competition -- reducing or eliminating foreign-investment restrictions in such sectors as telecommunications, airlines, financial services and uranium mining -- and improved productivity.

As Mr. Finlayson describes it, productivity, or the output per hour of labour worked, is a measure in which Canada "sucks."

It certainly does, judging by the release this week of the most recent data on Canadian productivity. Labour productivity dropped 0.2% in the second quarter of 2008 -- the third consecutive reduction -- compared with a 1.1% productivity gain in the United States. Over the past year, Canada's productivity was down 1.4% while the United States recorded a 3.2% gain.

Among industrialized countries, Canada's average annual productivity growth for the 25-year period to 2006 was slightly more than 1%, better than only Italy, Iceland and Switzerland,

"Canada's poor productivity performance is the most serious problem facing Canada's economy, both in the short run and in the long run. Unfortunately, it will probably hardly be mentioned in this federal election campaign because that would involve a discussion of Canada's onerously high personal tax rates. Pity," says Michael Gregory, senior economist at BMO Capital Markets.

Boosting productivity involves a variety of factors, most notably investments in leading-edge machinery and equipment. But as a recent analysis from the C. D. Howe Institute concluded, the investment per worker in Canada lags the United States, Group of Seven countries and members of the OECD. "All this," the economic think-tank said, "despite a stronger currency that has made imported machinery more affordable."

Canada's poor productivity record means the economy is not reaching its full potential, says the Toronto-based Institute for Competitiveness and Prosperity, which has led to a "prosperity gap" with its largest trading partner, the United States. The gap -- defined as the prosperity potential that Canada has failed to achieve and should aspire to attain -- stands at roughly $8,800 per person. That threatens to wider further, the institute warned in its most recent annual report, to an inflation-adjusted $13,700 by 2020 unless current trends, namely the poor productivity record, are addressed.

The Competition Policy panel delivered a similar message. "We cannot shy away from making the tough decisions required to enhance productivity today because the benefits will be realized tomorrow," it said.

Aside from productivity, other key areas policymakers need to focus on to boost Canada's presence in the world include infrastructure, taxation of business investment and personal income, and regulatory overlap. Governments have moved in these areas, but analysts say what has been proposed is too meek to have any meaningful impact.

--------------------
Infrastructure: The gap widens

$72B - Amount that should go to new projects

$123B- Amount that should go to maintain existing structures
--------------------

A report commissioned by the Institute for Research and Public Policy suggested last month Canada would need to spend up to $200-billion on highways, ports, schools, and sewage-treatment plants and such to bridge the country's infrastructure gap. The author, James Brox, a University of Waterloo economics professor, said $72-billion should go to new projects and $123-billion to the maintenance of existing structures.

"The decline of Canada's infrastructure stock has coincided with a market slowdown in productivity growth … especially in comparison with the United States," Prof. Brox says. "These relationships are not coincidental but, rather, reflect the fact that services provided by public infrastructure enter both directly and indirectly into private-sector manufacturing."

Governments have acknowledged the need to brush up the infrastructure; legislators in Ottawa and the provinces of Ontario and Quebec have allocated up to $65-billion over the next five to 10 years. Prof. Brox says that falls well short.

"It is clear that this financial commitment will need to be sustained and even increased over a longer period of time to close the infrastructure gap fully," he says, adding the inadequate response is because much of the responsibility for infrastructure has been shifted to local governments, whose revenue sources are limited. "This municipal fiscal shortfall has been recognized, but not fully remedied."

Public-private partnerships are one option, and they have grown in popularity in Canada. But the projects carry political risks, particularly when governments or municipal leaders change.

--------------------
Taxes: We're not innovative

46.2% - Current effective tax rate imposed on labour

29.1% - Current marginal effective tax rate or the combined levy businesses pay to government on investments

15% - Corporate income tax rate Conservatives have pledged for 2012
--------------------

Hitting Canadians even closer to home than schools and roads is the country's record on personal taxation. The C. D. Howe and others contend personal taxes remain too high, and present a hurdle for attracting new and skilled talent to the country. The C. D. Howe recently estimated that the effective tax rate on labour -- the levy imposed on last dollars earned -- stands at 46.2%, which experts say must come down to ensure Canada can attract high-skilled talent.

"In a mobile world, those headline personal income tax rates do make a difference, and that's part of the fiscal picture where we have lagged behind," said William Robson, president of the C. D. Howe.

Taxation on business poses even deeper problems for Canada. It was noted in a recent KPMG report that most countries are moving away from taxes on corporations in an effort to make their jurisdictions as attractive as possible for investment. As a result, countries are relying more on consumption taxes, such as sales taxes on goods and services.

The Conservative government has pledged to take tax rates on corporate income down to 15% by 2012, but analysts say the country's business tax regime remains among the world's highest -- largely through levies on business investment or the purchase of equipment and machinery. Moreover, Canada is bucking the global trend by cutting the federal GST by two percentage points. Complicating matters is that five provinces -- British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Prince Edward Island--levy their own sales taxes, and those are generally slapped on business inputs such as computers and production equipment.

"We are still one of the highest-tax jurisdictions in the world when it comes to new investment," says James Milway, executive director of the Institute for Competitiveness and Prosperity. "Our tax mix would benefit if we had more GST and less corporate tax. But in Canada, we are going the opposite way," he adds in frustration. "No one would accuse Canada of being innovative when it comes to tax policy."

Overall, Canada's marginal effective tax rate-- the combined levy businesses pay to all levels of government on their investments -- stands at 29.1% this year. That is an improvement from 2007, but still puts Canada in the top third highest among industrialized and developing markets, as calculated by the C. D. Howe Institute. Analysts say that is expected to remain the case for the immediate future.

The federal government likes to compare its standing on business taxes against other members of the Group of Seven. But economists say comparisons should be made to a wider grouping of countries given the growing accumulation of wealth in developing markets.

"Federal and provincial governments continue to reduce corporate income and capital taxes but this is not sufficient to scale the walls," the C. D. Howe said in a July paper looking at Canadian tax policy. At the very least, the think-tank has argued, all provinces should push down their corporate income tax rates to 10% so that Canada's overall levy on business income falls below the average of OECD countries. Also, provinces that haven't harmonized their sales taxes should do so immediately.

Mr. Finlayson says business tax reform is necessary because Canada desperately needs to attract investment from high-value, high-paying sectors, such as pharmaceuticals and specialty chemicals, to offset the inevitable end to the commodity boom.

"It has proven much tougher to grow businesses in B. C. that are competing in international markets outside of the resource base," says the executive with the B. C. business council. "The risk is that the commodity boom will end. And if prices come down, and history tells us they will, then we are going to have hollowed-out wealth-producing sectors as a result of the higher dollar."

--------------------
Regulations: 'Tyranny of differences'

13 - The number of securities regulators in Canada

1 - The number of securities regulators in the United States
--------------------

Among the other issues threatening to hold Canada back is the "tyranny of small differences" of a regulatory scheme created by Canada's three levels of government.

One of the most talked-about and notorious examples deals with securities regulations, and how Canada has 13 different regulators whereas the United States has one single watchdog, the Securities and Exchange Commission. Numerous blue-chip panels have recommended adopting a single regulator, but the provinces have balked.

"The regulatory burden and overlap is not only dragging us down, but is discouraging foreign investment," Ms. Golden of the Conference Board says. "Companies don't want to come here and be hassled. The fact we have 13 securities regulators to handle 2% of the world's money is just a hassle."

Regulatory differences among the provinces and between Canada and its biggest trading partner, the United States, present threats to prosperity. A blue-chip federal advisory committee warned in 2004 that Canada's "outdated [regulatory] system is an impediment to innovation and a drag on the economy because it can inhibit competitiveness, productivity, investment and the growth of key sectors. Other countries are reforming their systems, and Canada cannot afford to be left behind."

But as demonstrated by the securities regulation situation, Ottawa cannot act alone; it must work in conjunction with the provinces. In some cases, municipalities have to be on board as well.

"One of the problems we have in Canada is that the country is too big, too diverse. There are too many levels of government to be able to define and implement coherent strategies at the microlevel," Mr. Finlayson says. "So, how the heck do you develop a focused approach to attracting global businesses when you have so many players and a large piece of geography?"

Myriad political protests have also dogged attempts by Canada, the United States and Mexico to harmonize regulations through the Security and Prosperity Partnership, making it difficult for controversy-averse legislators to act.

In the end, observers say, Canadian policymakers will only move to enact policies that get us up to speed with the global pack if their hands are forced. As long as high commodity prices deliver robust incomes and boost trade, nothing will change.

"Who did the most dramatic things lately? Ireland. Why did they do it? It had hit the wall and couldn't take on any more debt. So, I don't think governments will act until they have to," Mr. Milway says.

"It would be nice if governments could get ahead of the curve. But unfortunately, in democracies, governments don't act until they have to."

This is the first of multi-part (two part?) series. I’ll post the second part on Monday.


Edit: corrected format error.
 
Thucydides said:
While I agree with you in principle, the stakes are so high that political parties will do everything possible to wargame the system(s) to their advantage. Note for example that Senator Obama will not debate Senator McCain in informal "town hall" type debates during the campaign since Senator McCain can easily connect with viewers in a town hall while Senator Obama makes carefully scripted performances in large venues (whenever Senator Obama is away from the Teleprompter he is prone to make gaffes).

Informal and ad hoc debates are fine, but a clear venue that is not under the control of the political parties is also important to avoid the problems of war gaming. IF a party leader refuses to debate in this forum, the conveners should say "fine" and go ahead with everyone else....
Correct me if I'm wrong but won't one of the debates be "town hall" style?
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Any simple ‘calculator’ is going to lie to you.

Your tax breaks will, of course, depend on the tax bracket you are in. You also may benefit more or less than your neighbours from any new or upgraded social programmes. Additionally, Dion promises to do away with the $1,200.00 child care benefit - you may or may not get or want that.

True, and if you're in one of the lowest brackets, you may not get anything back. After all, as the plan is income tax based, if you pay no tax, you'll see no savings.

The Green Shaft Shift is just another GST – a consumption tax. I like that part of it, it’s a good thing. I much prefer consumption taxes to income taxes – the latter are taxes on savings and investments and jobs.

Agreed, however I would much rather see tax breaks and investment for projects and companies that work with green technologies. This approach would stimulate the industries and generate jobs. The current plan is based on the theory that one can be punished into changing one's behaviour. All stick, no carrot.

I also like that Dion promises income tax breaks – for the reasons I stated above; another good thing.

Increased social spending is a very bad idea. It is not that we should not have social programmes, the problem is that we have too many overlapping programmes now. We can do more - if not with less at least without any new money.

I would approve of the Green Shaft Shift IF Dion applied the carbon tax all across the board - especially at the gas pumps and on home heating oil - and made it honestly revenue neutral by cutting income taxes by the amount collected through the carbon tax in each previous year. But he's not planning to do that; thus it is a bad plan, even if it does give you and other Canadians some tax breaks.

Like many, I'm having difficulty with the "revenue neutral" concept of the plan. When was there ever a time in history that a government programme was ever revenue neutral? There's going to be an increased bureaucracy to pay to administer the plan, added to which, the plan calls for at lease one billion dollars of the tax collected to be funnelled into green initiatives. Unless these funds will be coming from other areas, the plan can in no way be considered revenue neutral. I'm also having difficulty accepting that they won't succumb to the temptation to spend the money on social programmes that as less "green" tax is collected, will have to be funded from increased taxes in other areas.
 
Edward has mentioned this point several times in the past; perhaps the real "hidden agendatm" is what he suggested all along:

http://imrightasrain.blogspot.com/2008/09/harpers-hidden-agenda-revealed.html

Harper's Hidden Agenda Revealed

I think most of us can agree that Stephen Harper's particular take on conservatism is not very conservative. He has campaigned and governed mostly from the centre since the writ was dropped last election.

Stephane Harper also has no desire to move the conservative government greatly towards the right and in fact has taken great pains at moving the Conservative party towards the centre.

Why is this?

The Conservative Party's hidden agenda is to displace the Liberals as Canada's natural ruling party.

Today N.L. Harper was campaigning, and in addition to down playing the rift (and in fact praising Premier Williams) he talked about his views on the Canadian electorate:

“I think the Canadian public has become more conservative. At the same time I don't want to say the Canadian public is overwhelmingly conservative or that it is necessarily as conservative as everybody in our party,” he said.

Conservatives know we are a big tent party, even if the Liberals don't, even if the Liberals like to call us regressives, or ideologues, or whatever other names slip of their tongues.

No, we Conservatives know that the Liberals sole claim to fame is their acceptance of conservative principles in free trade and enterprise, low taxes, and balanced budgets.

We saw the Liberal Party in the 1990s flip its positions on all these issues and adopt small c conservative positions. But there's also been a revival of pride in institutions that conservatives have traditionally backed, Mr. Harper said, meaning “not just [in] things like Medicare and the [Canadian Broadcasting Corporation] but [also] in our national military and other institutions.”

The Liberals backed these policies as they knew they were the key to a prosperous nation, and the key towards destroying their main rivals, the Progressive Conservatives.

The Liberals and P.Cs were similar in many aspects but one of their key differentiators were their fiscal policies. The P.Cs were much stronger proponents of free trade, open markets, and balanced budgets then the Liberals. When the Liberals realized they could take over that middle spot, they knew they could hold a lot of those swing votes. Of course the Liberals also had the vote splitting on the right to help seal the deal.

Harper knows the key to displacing the Liberals as the natural governing party of Canada is tied strongly to holding the middle, and that is what they will do. They will hold the middle and force the Liberals and the rest of the left further and further left.

Stephen Harper will be patient, he can afford to be patient, the left is fractured and divided. He will hold the middle, govern from the middle, and slowly reintroduce Canada to conservatism.

Just as magnetic north shifts a little every year, Harper knows that he can shift the centre a bit to the right year after year.

We have seen this in Canada as well, with many provinces voting in Conservative governments, in fact only 5 Liberal governments remain in power provincially/terrotorially, and really, two of them are often considered very centre or even a little right of centre. Even Quebec, supposed a bastion of liberal values voted in the ADQ as the official opposition. Jean Charest is also typically considered small c conservative, comes from his roots in the PC party.

Canada is slowly becoming a little more conservative.

The next time someone talks in hushed whispers about the so called hidden agenda, and how we will round up all the gays, dismantle medicare, or put soldiers in the streets you can remain them that it would absolutely positively not happen.

Stephen Harper will govern from the middle, that is the only way to displace the Liberals. It is also one of the reasons I support the Conservatives.

We're better of with Harper.
 
The CBC has used TV Ontario’s archives to prove that, Yes, Elizabeth May, did say she agreed, fundamentally, with those who  think Canadians are stupid – despite her protestations to the contrary and despite Green Party threats to sue a NDP blogger over the ‘truth.’

I note that the Greens are nearly was well supported as the Liberals here on Army.ca. (Is ‘well’ really the right word? Wouldn’t ‘sickly’ be more appropriate?) What do Green supporters think. Are Canadians stupid or does May have really, really poor political judgement? If the latter, does that really, really poor judgement qualify her to sit in the HoC?

May is Rex Murphy’s guest on (CBC Radio) Cross Country Checkup this afternoon. I wonder if Murphy will hold her feet to the fire on this gaffe.

 
Disturbing Trend in Wildlife -

The photos below capture a disturbing trend that is beginning to affect wildlife in the Canada .

Animals that were formerly self-sufficient are now showing signs of belonging to the Liberal and New Democrat Party.....as they have
apparently learned to just sit and wait for the government to step in and provide for their care and sustenance.


 
E.R. Campbell said:
Any simple ‘calculator’ is going to lie to you.

Your tax breaks will, of course, depend on the tax bracket you are in. You also may benefit more or less than your neighbours from any new or upgraded social programmes. Additionally, Dion promises to do away with the $1,200.00 child care benefit - you may or may not get or want that.

The Green Shaft Shift is just another GST – a consumption tax. I like that part of it, it’s a good thing. I much prefer consumption taxes to income taxes – the latter are taxes on savings and investments and jobs.

And, of course, if you live in rural areas you will be shafted by the "consumption tax" as you don't have access to public transit, must travel by car for doctors, schools, you know --- essentials in life. Must consume that gas to work those farmers fields.

But hell, if you live in a metro area where public transit is available to get you to all these essentials in life --- the benefits of this type of system would be so much more appealing.

Kind of all has me wondering exactly where the NDP and Liberal voting base is situated ... oh!! - that's right - right in the heart of downtown TO. Kind of eerie isn't it? That'll keep me voting Conservative this election.

I'm a small town NB girl, who's relatives are farmers and lobstermen. I'm already rich by their standards --- I'll not be giving a vote to a party that would like to see them "consumption taxed" down the drain while their party "Pro-Voters" in the big metro areas reap the benefits of that policy.


Sorry M. Dion - you lost me; like you ever had me in the first place.  ::)
 
I was talking to a clerk at the grocery store yesterday. The cost of my shopping for a week went up by 50% - food prices are going through the roof in Winnipeg already without the Green Shaft Shift. My comments were that I wondered if Dion was going to provide us with extra grocery money every month. Oh yes - - we're getting a rebate at tax time. Nice - once a year we can afford to eat, whether we're hungry or not.

I was looking for the stats on how many Winnipeggers are using the food bank now, and couldn't find stats more recent than 2005. More of us are going to be depending on others to provide sustenance if the Libs get in.

And if you believe the Liberals will give us a tax break - I have a bridge for sale.

:cdn:
Hawk
 
ArmyVern said:
...
I'm a small town NB girl, who's relatives are farmers and lobstermen. I'm already rich by their standards --- I'll not be giving a vote to a party that would like to see them "consumption taxed" down the drain while their party "Pro-Voters" in the big metro areas reap the benefits of that policy.
...


You are correct, Vern but the situation does not mean that consumption taxes are bad.

The purpose of any tax is to raise money for the common or public good (commonweal originally; weal ≠ wealth, per se, rather it meant ‘well being’) – those thing that, in a democratic society, a majority of us agree ought to be funded by all of us and provided, ‘free,’ to some, many, most, occasionally even all of us. A tax should do the least possible damage to the individuals who pay it and to the economy as a whole. The two aims are, essentially, irreconcilable: a tax that does the least damage to the poorest, those who can least sustain ‘damage,’ is a progressive tax, like an income tax. A tax which does the least damage to the economy is a discretionary tax, like the GST.

By discretionary I mean that one can decide to pay less GST simply by buying less – fewer or lower cost goods and fewer or lower cost services. Of course we must (almost?) all consume some goods and services: food, hydro, a phone line, some transportation (even we central city dwellers take the occasional taxi – especially when are legs are in a cast!  :crybaby: ) and so on. A level tax, like the GST, punishes the poorest because they have some irreducible amount they must consume, to live, and, therefore, they, despite their lack of means, have an irreducible tax bill. So do I. But my tax bill is low, as a percentage of my disposable income and relative to, say, a small farmer only an hour’s drive from downtown Ottawa. There must be some way to correct the basic unfairness: maybe through some sort of  guaranteed annual income programme.

Now, Vern, in my perfect world we would have no income taxes at all, nor would we have corporate taxes (which are just income taxes with a few extra collection inefficiencies tossed in to waste money) at all. Property taxes would be gone – but cities would be allowed to levy consumption taxes on a range of goods and services.

We would, however, all submit an annual ‘statement of income’ (that would probably be a lot simpler than our current income tax return) to determine if we qualified for monthly payments in the following year. (Of course, there would have to be mechanisms to allow ‘advance’ payments when one lost a job, etc – but those are details best left to accountants and bureaucrats.)

We would pay the consumption taxes on absolutely everything legal. All food, all rent all medical expenses, all gas for the car, all bottles of cheer at our neighbourhood People’s Happiness Store – everything. The tax rates would be set high enough, in each taxing jurisdiction, to pay for schools, foreign aid, sewers, airports and air traffic control, hospitals and ‘free’ (and medically necessary) health care, navigation services, roads and snow removal, foreign aid, water treatment, diplomacy and the national defence, and, and, and almost ad infinitum and the guaranteed annual income programmes.

The guaranteed annual income programme, if it is to work, must be universal and must not be impacted by earned income until the combination of the GAI and earned income = low income cut off + n, or some other, better measure that LICO (and there are plenty of them, almost all better); n is a political choice.

But that’s my perfect world and I doubt Stephen Harper (or most Canadian Conservatives) lives in it.

 
E.R. Campbell said:
You are correct, Vern but the situation does not mean that consumption taxes are bad.

No but, I know my relatives ... and they'd rather be working hard in those fields than collecting from any "programme". It's quite the conumdrum as every single thing they do to put food on the tables of Canadian families is exactly that which will bear the brunt of 'consumption' taxes. It takes a whole lot of fuel to work those acres and acres of fields and run that equipment.

That's exactly my issue with consumption taxes ... those that must consume the most in order to produce essentials like food for Canadian dinner tables ... will be those who end up "consumed the most by those taxes". In order to produce, they must be in rural areas, they must travel for doctors and school, they must fuel up farm equipment to feed "us". Someone has to do it.

It's those "essential to production" areas that I have issues with applying consumption taxes. To apply it to joe-blow in dowtown TO when he gasses up his car to drive 2 blocks to 7/11 instead of walking/taking public transit is one thing ... but to apply it to those farmers etc who MUST consume that fuel to provide essential basic foodstuffs to Canada and her citizens is quite another.

Oh, the communist thoughts running through my brain right now.

But, forget the programmes ... my relatives are also a very proud bunch ... they'd much rather be working hard every day than collecting anything from a 'programme". It does seem kind of twisted to "consumption tax" them ... only to give part of it it back through some machine-signed cheque at a later date. My grandfather has a great "red" joke about "Social Programmes" - he has the tendancy to think that he went to war to avoid exactly those things.

Tell you what -- YOU run for Prime Minister and I'll be your Vice-Prime-Minister (Yes, I'm switching up the proper terminology too; and, I DO look good in lipstick by the way) ... it'll be a whole new way of doing business; they'll never know what a whirlwind hit them!! ;D
 
ArmyVern said:
...
But, forget the programmes ... my relatives are also a very proud bunch ... they'd much rather be working hard every day than collecting anything from a 'programme". It does seem kind of twisted to "consumption tax" them ... only to give part of it it back through some machine-signed cheque at a later date. My grandfather has a great "red" joke about "Social Programmes" - he has the tendancy to think that he went to war to avoid exactly those things.
...

But they already "collect" from a "programme" - the income tax system starts with a bunch of "give-aways" - the basic personal exemption, then an exemption for this and another for that. There are special "give-aways" for farmers and fisher-folk and clergy and union members, and, and, and ...

Wouldn't a fair, transparent, simple 'programme' be better? I'm about 97.5% it would be a whole lot cheaper to administer.
 
I actually like Mr Campbell's idea of a flat consumption tax, as it would in the long run be much fairer than the current system in place. Using the model of GST, a company/business would deduct what it expends vs what it charges and remits the difference. Should the expense be larger than charges, then a rebate is granted.

Also if a family were to be below a median total income (based upon national average) then they would be given quarterly rebates.

I believe this would be actually advantageous to lower income families, vice the current income tax system, as the rich have much better ways of being able to "hide/defer" taxable income.
 
Everyone is forgetting that those on low income are going to get this additional $$ needed to satisfy the consumption taxes from where?

Getting a cheque in 3 months does not help put food on the table this week....
 
So, back to the Green Shift and revenue neutral. From here: (with the usual disclaimers) http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080911/election2008_promises_080913/20080913?s_name=election2008&no_ads=

Add $350 to the $1,200-a-year child-care allowance. Low-income families would also receive another payment of up to $1,225 a year. Costs paid for with carbon tax.


Now I'm not against increased fundings for families, but I was pretty sure that the Liberals said the weren't going to fund social programmes from the Carbon Tax. This is dangerous ground. The temptation to spend any new tax revenue on social programmes is just too great. What happens when the Carbon Tax revenues decrease because people move to less carbon intense activities? How will the new social programmes be funded? Where is the revenue neutrality in this?
 
E.R. Campbell said:
But they already "collect" from a "programme" - the income tax system starts with a bunch of "give-aways" - the basic personal exemption, then an exemption for this and another for that. There are special "give-aways" for farmers and fisher-folk and clergy and union members, and, and, and ...

Wouldn't a fair, transparent, simple 'programme' be better? I'm about 97.5% it would be a whole lot cheaper to administer.

That's exactly his argument about "Social programmes" ... that he's quite sure all these "taxes" were brought in only as "temporary measures" while HIS dad fought in World War One, and that while HE fought in World War two and the following spread of "red communism" that we were (and are) still paying those "temporary income taxes" because people have gotten too used to "programmes" and will never give them up now - and, quite frankly, just expect more and more of them.

As for the "give-aways" they get ... I'll stick with my standard of living compared to theirs (my relatives) any day. I've become accustomed to it. Apparently their give-aways are received and go towards/are reinvested into production costs - certainly not towards enjoying the movies in a movie theatre or eating out at restaurants a couple times a month. When I get a "give-away" I get to spend it on recreation and liesure ... they don't and therein is the big difference to me. To me it's a "bonus"; to them it's "essential". 'Tis a very lovely capitalistic society that we live in.

The consumption tax, to me, will benefit those who have access to the "green" things and will see them reaping greater rebates from the "green things" --- those who can afford the liesure and recreation.
 
ModlrMike said:
Where is the revenue neutrality in this?

I think that's a big misnomer with all this "green" talk of consumption taxes.

So, you pay a tax on consupmtion, but you get it back at tax year (thus they say you are "saving"); but, if you didn't pay out that 10 bucks on item "X" in consumption taxes ... you'd have spent that ten bucks on buying something else you need like a sweater. When you do get your rebate back ... you're going to then buy those things you needed to buy anyway, but couldn't because your household disposable income decreased due to the consuption tax.

No one is saving shit. Whatever you do get back (if anything) will be spent on the things you needed to buy anyway. They're only shifting the time that you can "afford" buy them. And you will be buying less ... because you sure as hell aren't going to get back all the money you put into consumption taxes back.
 
GAP said:
Everyone is forgetting that those on low income are going to get this additional $$ needed to satisfy the consumption taxes from where?

Getting a cheque in 3 months does not help put food on the table this week....

Well, there is nothing to say that the cheques can't be sent out on a monthly basis. I was just using quarterly as an example. Obviously people would have to budget, just like the rest of us folks.....
 
We have to have taxes;  :rage:  some taxes pay for things we need, some taxes pay for things we want, some taxes pay for things that only some of us need or want.

No taxes are especially good.

The issue is what are the least bad taxes?

We’re not going to get anything like “least bad” with Dion’s Green Shaft Shift; it is not that a carbon tax is bad, it is that the whole Liberal plan is designed to raise even more money to spend on programmes that too few of us need and only some of us even want.

It is just plain poor public policy.

 
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